The cold, hard, facts

  • Thread starter Thread starter Nameless
  • Start date Start date
Nameless said:
Anyway, I've tried to be helpful here and I guess people would rather just try and "prove me wrong" or something. Maybe to make themselves look smarter? :confused: Or just for the sake of arguing? I don't know.

I was hoping I could give some answers to specific questions people had that they couldn't get answers to, but I guess not. :)

Anyway, it was fun. Good luck to everyone. I don't feel like trying to 'defend' myself anymore.

I knew "Nameless" wouldn't last. One thread and he's done, no surprise there. He sort of floated down on silver wings to enlighten the masses with the wonder of his knowledge but found out spreading the word is dirty work after all.

Good posts, but I guess he needed a little more stroking than is generally divulged around these parts.

The thing you need to understand Nameless, is that there are *many* people who read and appreciate the helpful posts like yours but don't necessarily post into the thread or tell you how brilliant your advice is. If you really want to help out, as you say you do, then you need to continue contributing regardless of the mud that gets slung at you by a few.
 
Nameless, you're by no means the only one on this board giving professional advice - Jon O Neal, Farview, Glen, Harvey Gearst and quite a few others besides have all imparted their wisdom upon me in the past. The Guitars and Basses forum has two luthiers posting frequently. I wont reiterate what has been said about this site being the unmoderated open-access forum that it is, but it is important that you know that.

Advice, opinion....you're always going to be prone to misinformation the world over, and in various mediums. You can just hope that you're given more good advice than bad and temper eagerness with wariness. Learning isn't just about acquiring information, it involves filtering the useful information from the garbage. I'm sure, even allowing for poor advice, the guy helping out in your studio knew more going in than he would have had he no prior exposure to the process recording music.

I started recording music in an untreated room with budget equipment three years back. I don't expect professional results, so I'm not disappointed when I don't get them. I'd love to study sound engineering at a professional level but sadly, there is very little chance of employment from it in this country, so I have to focus on other pursuits and focus my resources upon those. I'm very grateful to many of the people who have posted in this thread for their helpful information, and a great deal more of the forums members. If that means that you sigh whenever you hear a piss-poor mix riddled with reflection and artefacts streaming at a snails pace from MySpace, then so be it...the chances are, I've got a huge kick out of maing said piss poor reflection and artefact riddled mix.
 
SonicAlbert said:
The thing you need to understand Nameless, is that there are *many* people who read and appreciate the helpful posts like yours but don't necessarily post into the thread or tell you how brilliant your advice is. If you really want to help out, as you say you do, then you need to continue contributing regardless of the mud that gets slung at you by a few.
Good words, Albert.
I've been reading this thread from the start...but had no real comments. Still don't. I'm not a very good musician, don't have much good equipement, but love to play and record. (it keeps me from strangling eveyone I meet... :D )

I've gotten tons of good advice, from alot of people here. I always try and say thank you, and help out whenever I feel comfortable offering what little knowledge I have. There's many good people here, and actually, so few bad.

I guess you just have to make this place fit your own mindset. If you have knowledge to share, you need to do it because you enjoy helping others....cuz the enjoyment is what YOU are going to get out of it.

Personally, I love reading all the technical stuff put out to read, but have little to comment on, as alot is just way beyond me right now. I'm probably not alone in this.

As my friend Ghost would say....Cheers. :)
 
mmmhmmmm - very true.

I personally found much of what Nameless said to be useful and had no problem disregarding the perceived negative or condescending tone of his posts or the subsequent BS that followed.

People feel better about themselves when they find someone who takes their mind off of their own short comings. Nameless provided such a service here for a lot of folks who, after they spent their time crafting their reasons why they felt Namelss is a "bad poster", most likely strutted about their spaces all puffed up and powerful - even if only for a brief moment.

Thanks for that, Nameless - I don't know if you are aware how many people you made feel that much better about themselves. How very generous of you.
 
Many folks just don't understand the importance of delivery. Sure, content is king, but even if you were handing down undeniable nuggets of pure gold, truth, and insight of the ages, you'll have a hard time getting people to just accept them graciously - let alone at all - if you beat those people upside the head with them.

I mean, come on, Nameless; you've been on this planet long enough that you should realize that if you just bust into a strange place and announce at the top of your lungs, "OK, lamebrains; you don't know who I am and I refuse to tell you. But I'm here to say that the majority of you are idiots and I'm going to set you all straight here and now for I speak the Word of the Lord," that a fifth of the people will hang on your every word, a fifth of the people will ignore you, a fifth will laugh at you, a fifth will be offended by your remarks, and a fifth will smack you over the head with pool cues.

If, OTOH, you come in with a smile, announce who you are, offer some form of credential or evidence of your qualification, and say, "You are good people and I'd like to share in your efforts and help out how I can", a third of the people will hang on your every word, a third will at least accept you and see what you have to offer, a third will ignore you, and chessrock will continue to shoot spitballs at you.

I don't know whether it's because they spend so much time in dark, windowless rooms in close proximity to drunken mullets night after night, but there sure are a large number of mid-level pro audio engineers with all the class and tact of Triumph The Insult Comic Dog :rolleyes: .

G.
 
I would like to point on one phrase in Nameless' original post (the one the stirred the hive) that seems conveniently overlooked by so many who seem committed to ensuring that the only way to take his post is as a personal insult or slam on everyone here.

That phrase is:
nameless said:
"Also if anyone has questions I'll be glad to answer. I'm usually very busy but this week I'm taking a little vacation and I wouldn't mind giving advice/answers to some of you."

Yes, his opening salvo was dripping with what appeared to be contempt for a lot of the information here. Is he wrong? Not really. There is a lot of misinformation here.

The thing I don't think Nameless took into account, however, is that misinformation CAN lead to corrections (like his) and subsequently make the fact that there is misinformation here become a valuable thing. If that info goes unchallenged, it is bad... but the fact that it is there means there is an opportunity for clarification or outright correction. The fact that it is there means at least one person has some confusion about something and is probably indicative of confusion that is shared by more. Sure, he could have softened the blow and come off a little more warm and fuzzy...

On the other side of the fence, I think those who were so focused on trying to make Nameless see the error of his ways missed an opportunity to simply demonstrate by example how being polite and cordial can be a better way to get good information read as opposed to beating on him until he says, "uncle".
 
Nameless said:
I was hoping I could give some answers to specific questions people had that they couldn't get answers to, but I guess not. :)

Anyway, it was fun. Good luck to everyone. I don't feel like trying to 'defend' myself anymore.

Dude, I told you very early in the thread to just go to the MP3 clinic and help people where you felt like you contribute. Instead, you kept up your guru on the mountaintop approach, which I also told you would end in your dissatisfaction.

So . . . later, dude!
 
ya' know ...... nameless gave some good advice but absolutely nothing that hasn't been posted on this board dozens of times before ...... and though I found it to be pretty mild .... he was definitely condescending and some people just won't tolerate that.
Further ...... I didn't see any flaming at all ......... all I saw was people fairly mildly objecting to the condenscention.
But nowhere near enough to have driven him off if he were truly interested in teaching ...... hell, I didn't see anything that we would have run off from knitting.com so it was pretty mild.
Furthermore ....... when someone says that they're gonna straighten us out and that their opinion is the 100% way it is I sorta see a vision of the current administration at work. If someone has no willingness to 'defend' his point of view, then I have to wonder whether that's because they can't.
Hopefully he'll be around 'cause he clearly knows his shit, but anyone that's too thin skinned can't make it around here and no one wants to be talked down to.
There are too many full fledged pros here to just assume that you can talk down to the whole group..
 
Nameless said:
You are failing to see the point.
No, YOU are failing to see the point. The POINT being you come in here and instantly start spewing shit like

Maybe to make themselves look smarter?

When you say things like that, you lose any respect you may have been entitled to.

Good posts, but I guess he needed a little more stroking than is generally divulged around these parts
Bingo. Let's all bow down and worship somebody because he said to practice your instrument and get good takes. :rolleyes: C'.mon, does anyone actually need advice like that?? I would be glad to go to a violin forum and say "Hey kids, practice". :rolleyes: That's not advice, it's common sense known to a first-grader.

"Nameless", you DO have some good advice in the midst of it all, I applaud that. However, the condescension is a crappy learning tool. You seem to be under the impression that everyone here is a Rube, and that's about as far from reality as possible. There are some excellent musicians and knowlegable engineers who have been active here for years and years. You are just another one of them now, neither better nor worse. The goal (hopefully) for a forum like this is that everybody is in the same boat and is capable of learning anything from anybody. You sort through the crap, find out who knows their stuff, and you latch on.

PS- I hope you stick around. :cool:
 
Hey, good advice. Trial and error's where it's at. I'm treating this whole thing like it's not the destination but the journey that's the fun part. So if I never get to where I'm going I'm gonna be having more fun than I can poke a stick at.
 
I'm not sure what makes any of you think I think I'm a "guru" and you're lucky to be 'reading my advice'. That's the kinda shit that gets to me. Maybe my first post was taken wrongly. Sometimes you have to say things in a 'rude-like' manner for people to listen.

While DavidK, you're right that "practice your instrument" or "get a better instrument" is common sense, it is still the #1 reason why people don't get quality recordings. Because they just ignore that fact, don't have the money for it, or would rather spend it on expensive gear. Regardless, it is the most important part of recording (that, and of course, the song).

Everyone already knows this but they forget it all the time. Or ignore it all-together.

With all the marketing and gear available, it has taken the focus off the entire purpose of recording. Recording is not about making something bad sound good, it is about accurately recording a good sounding performance. With all the cool little plugins, wave editors, and the like, people spend all their time trying to learn 'studio tricks' to fix things that should never have been there to begin with.

They all look up to pro studio people because they think they know all these 'tricks' to get a pro sound. 90% of the time there are no "tricks". It's an illusion. Don't fool yourself. It's good musicians, on good instruments, in good rooms, playing good songs. If you can get those few things down 100% you will so much closer to getting a professional-quality recording.

To those who are new, I personally recommend spending most your time in the Studio Building & Display Forum, Newbie forum, Guitars/Basses, Drums forum, and then Recording Techniques/Microphone forum. That's just my personal opinion though, take it for what it is.

Before I go, I think a short list of things for people who are new or confused to do is this (in order):

Practice your instrument and song material until you can do it in your sleep without any mistakes. Perfect your technique so you can make your instrument sing just how you want it to.

If your instrument is holding you back, or if it doesn't sound as good as you would like, save for a new one. Spend your time looking for one that you KNOW 100% will sound amazing on record. Not one that you chose, but one that chooses you. You will know when you find it.

Set up a small vocal booth in your closet, or treat your room with some 2x4x4" or 2" thick panels. At least treat one area that will be dedicated to tracking, then your mixing area.

Buy a couple of decent mics. Audio Technica, MXL (some people have mixed opinions about these), AKG, all make decent mics. You can always ask here about which one for your application.

Buy a preamp unit with enough channels for how many tracks you want to record at once. Don't stress over if it's just a DMP3, or FirePod or something else, and not a Great River. With your playing ability, good instrument and treated room, it won't matter nearly as much as you think.

Then buy an interface to record with. Most any entry-level interface will do the job. If you have extra money, put it towards monitors or better mics.

Buy a decent set of monitors in your price range. Don't worry about them being 'ruler flat'. Even if they are, you still have to learn how 'ruler flat' translates to 'not-so-flat' speakers. Just find a decent pair with nice detail and learn them. It will take time and practice so be patient!

Of course if you have a lot of money, go all out on everything. I'm mainly referring to people on a budget.

Also, Learn to hear your music in your head exactly how you want it to sound. Listen to this in your head while mixing. When the one your mixing fits perfectly into the one in your head you'll know it! This will take time to learn and a lot of practice.

I may try to answer a couple questions but I don't have a lot of vacation time left to spend on here, trying to visit family before going back to the studio. Anyway, good luck to everyone. And remember, take all advice with a grain of salt. Always trust and use your own judgment. It's the most important thing.

From what I see, there are many qualified engineers on this board, perhaps moreso than I, I can't say. And I'm not trying to sound superior to any of them. I think that's what is ticking people off here. But I do have a lot of experience in what I do. I don't do a lot of things well, but recording is something I do.

Anyway, I hope I have helped at least a few of you. If I did then I feel I haven't wasted any time.
 
Nameless said:
I'm not sure what makes any of you think I think I'm a "guru" and you're lucky to be 'reading my advice'. That's the kinda shit that gets to me. Maybe my first post was taken wrongly. Sometimes you have to say things in a 'rude-like' manner for people to listen.

While DavidK, you're right that "practice your instrument" or "get a better instrument" is common sense, it is still the #1 reason why people don't get quality recordings. Because they just ignore that fact, don't have the money for it, or would rather spend it on expensive gear. Regardless, it is the most important part of recording (that, and of course, the song).

Everyone already knows this but they forget it all the time. Or ignore it all-together.

With all the marketing and gear available, it has taken the focus off the entire purpose of recording. Recording is not about making something bad sound good, it is about accurately recording a good sounding performance. With all the cool little plugins, wave editors, and the like, people spend all their time trying to learn 'studio tricks' to fix things that should never have been there to begin with.

They all look up to pro studio people because they think they know all these 'tricks' to get a pro sound. 90% of the time there are no "tricks". It's an illusion. Don't fool yourself. It's good musicians, on good instruments, in good rooms, playing good songs. If you can get those few things down 100% you will so much closer to getting a professional-quality recording.

To those who are new, I personally recommend spending most your time in the Studio Building & Display Forum, Newbie forum, Guitars/Basses, Drums forum, and then Recording Techniques/Microphone forum. That's just my personal opinion though, take it for what it is.

Before I go, I think a short list of things for people who are new or confused to do is this (in order):

Practice your instrument and song material until you can do it in your sleep without any mistakes. Perfect your technique so you can make your instrument sing just how you want it to.

If your instrument is holding you back, or if it doesn't sound as good as you would like, save for a new one. Spend your time looking for one that you KNOW 100% will sound amazing on record. Not one that you chose, but one that chooses you. You will know when you find it.

Set up a small vocal booth in your closet, or treat your room with some 2x4x4" or 2" thick panels. At least treat one area that will be dedicated to tracking, then your mixing area.

Buy a couple of decent mics. Audio Technica, MXL (some people have mixed opinions about these), AKG, all make decent mics. You can always ask here about which one for your application.

Buy a preamp unit with enough channels for how many tracks you want to record at once. Don't stress over if it's just a DMP3, or FirePod or something else, and not a Great River. With your playing ability, good instrument and treated room, it won't matter nearly as much as you think.

Then buy an interface to record with. Most any entry-level interface will do the job. If you have extra money, put it towards monitors or better mics.

Buy a decent set of monitors in your price range. Don't worry about them being 'ruler flat'. Even if they are, you still have to learn how 'ruler flat' translates to 'not-so-flat' speakers. Just find a decent pair with nice detail and learn them. It will take time and practice so be patient!

Of course if you have a lot of money, go all out on everything. I'm mainly referring to people on a budget.

Also, Learn to hear your music in your head exactly how you want it to sound. Listen to this in your head while mixing. When the one your mixing fits perfectly into the one in your head you'll know it! This will take time to learn and a lot of practice.

I may try to answer a couple questions but I don't have a lot of vacation time left to spend on here, trying to visit family before going back to the studio. Anyway, good luck to everyone. And remember, take all advice with a grain of salt. Always trust and use your own judgment. It's the most important thing.

From what I see, there are many qualified engineers on this board, perhaps moreso than I, I can't say. And I'm not trying to sound superior to any of them. I think that's what is ticking people off here. But I do have a lot of experience in what I do. I don't do a lot of things well, but recording is something I do.

Anyway, I hope I have helped at least a few of you. If I did then I feel I haven't wasted any time.

The body of content here, is what you should have lead off with in your original posting.

You got the point accross, you didn't come off as condescending, and you would have helped the numerous people looking for that particular type of advice. You also would've avoided the dissarray this thread turned into.

I guess even at 56, there's still plenty to learn. ;)
 
....reverb....

Nameless,

...you mentioned that reverb was an area that you can spend alot of effort with.....what is your strategy?
Q. Do you apply reverb to a main buss and then dial in the aux on each track?
Q. Use different reverbs on different tracks / instruments?
Q. Reverb on the bass guitar?
Q. How to get that super 'wet' sound that is common on smooth jazz sax and guitars ( without hearing the reverb effect)?
Q. How to use reverb to create depth?

Thanks,

mcmd
 
Change of POETS said:
The body of content here, is what you should have lead off with in your original posting.

You got the point accross, you didn't come off as condescending, and you would have helped the numerous people looking for that particular type of advice. You also would've avoided the dissarray this thread turned into.


I agree. Nice post.

.
 
mcmd said:
Nameless,

...you mentioned that reverb was an area that you can spend alot of effort with.....what is your strategy?

Depends what I'm doing (isn't that a common answer? ;))

mcmd said:
Q. Do you apply reverb to a main buss and then dial in the aux on each track?

Sometimes, you can do it like that if you want. It can make it easier with a lot of tracks.

mcmd said:
Q. Use different reverbs on different tracks / instruments?

Of course. In a live setting, I may not use reverb at all if the room was setup properly for that recording. Otherwise, if I feel it needs a 'polished' sound, I may apply a very slight reverb to the entire mix! And possibly the same reverb with a little more 'wet' and 'room size' on the vocals. When I say little, I mean little.

In a situation where it's a 1-track-at-a-time, I try and move some gobos around the room and setup the mic at the right position for the instrument (again while monitoring through headphones while the musician plays). In an untreated room this is not possible, because for the rhythm instruments, like acoustic guitar, I like to mic from about 2-3 ft. away. In a small, untreated room this will sound like a pile of shit. But this is really how most 'open', '3D soundstage' mixes happen. Is with mic placement at the tracking stage.

Turning the fader down on the track is a 2-dimensional way to bring it back in the mix. And fake reverb effects can get muddy very quickly if applied to each individual track (again, the importance of room treatment!!!).

Assuming the room is poor and I was stuck with fake reverb effects (I'll assume you're using a reverb plugin), I would accept some of the room effects and live with it. I probably wouldn't close mic! That will be impossible to push back into the mix.

I'd start about 1 foot away from the guitar and tame some harsh frequency reflections with a parametric EQ (sweeping through the high freq.). Find the nasty sounds and cut them out. Then possibly add a very slight reverb to try and 'polish' the existing sound that now has the nasty frequencies tamed.

mcmd said:
Q. Reverb on the bass guitar?

Same as above. Except I usually like the bass upfront personally, in most songs anyway. I feel it needs to be heard. I like to keep them about the same 'distance' in the mix as the rhythm instruments, so almost the same thing applies except I might mic a little closer.

In an untreated room, mic your drums close and put anything that you can up for absorption. Don't use a room mic. In a treated room, the room mic is how I control ambience. I rarely put reverb on drums! It can sound muddy and take away 'punch' when mixed with the other tracks.

mcmd said:
Q. How to get that super 'wet' sound that is common on smooth jazz sax and guitars ( without hearing the reverb effect)?

I don't do a lot of jazz work to be honest. If I could hear a clip I could give you better advice on that because I'm not sure I know what you mean.

You can try turning down pre-delay and delay time and increase room size and wet/dry mix. Keep dry at 100% and turn wet up. Might also want to try a slight frequency cut with an EQ in the mids and again in the highs (some reverb plugs come with a sort of EQ, like the Waves Reverb).

mcmd said:
Q. How to use reverb to create depth?

The hardest part, especially for me. Like I said before, I try to get the depth from the actual recording, because it's really hard to fake it with a reverb.

You will need to mess with delay/pre-delay and frequency cuts, as well as room size and wet/dry mix. All the parameters play a role, and you need to learn what each one does.
 
I see all this talk about room treatment and shitty room sounds you will get with a shitty room. Well, the room is i record in is a finished basement. It has tile floors and dry wall walls, and has a rug that doesnt take up all of the floor but a good bit, thees a bunch of small amps and gguitars and basses and a keyboard, guitar stands, a cd shelf, a bok shelf, a board game shelf, a couple bean bags, and no room treatment at all. Now, am I correct in assuming this is a "shitty room"? When I record I get no "room sounds" at all. Well, I take that back. One time I recorded a drum set with one condenser mic hanging over it, and i got plenty of room reverb on it. But other than that, when i record electric guitars, acoustic guitars, vocals,i get no natural reverb at all, so the room qualities can't be that important, can they?
 
Nameless said:
Depends what I'm doing (isn't that a common answer? ;))

.


No offense, dude, that's the same shit that's been tossed around here for years, right down to the wink.

Go to the mp3 clinic, listen to some mixes, and offer someone some specific tips, why don't you? You've given the overall picture, get down to brass tacks and do something.

If you don't, you are pretty much going to be remembered as another self-important jerkoff who liked to hear himself talk about NOTHING.

Well, for a week, anyway, until everyone forgets you.

Wanker. Enjoy your vacation.
 
Newbie dude said:
I see all this talk about room treatment and shitty room sounds you will get with a shitty room. Well, the room is i record in is a finished basement. It has tile floors and dry wall walls, and has a rug that doesnt take up all of the floor but a good bit, thees a bunch of small amps and gguitars and basses and a keyboard, guitar stands, a cd shelf, a bok shelf, a board game shelf, a couple bean bags, and no room treatment at all. Now, am I correct in assuming this is a "shitty room"? When I record I get no "room sounds" at all. Well, I take that back. One time I recorded a drum set with one condenser mic hanging over it, and i got plenty of room reverb on it. But other than that, when i record electric guitars, acoustic guitars, vocals,i get no natural reverb at all, so the room qualities can't be that important, can they?

When you're close micing guitar amps, you don't get much of the sound of the room. Vocals and acoustic guitars, I'm sure you do. It might not show up much as reverb, but rather as a build-up of frequencies. Read the posts more thoroughly, that was definitely mentioned.
 
Nameless said:
That's understandable until you've tried (HIGH QUALITY) outboard gear. If you think the digital stuff sounds good that's great, I know a lot of people who do. Personally, compared to the outboard gear, I can't stand them.

I think the key word in that statement is "personally". It is true though, the best outboard gear is almost always better than the equivalent plug-ins available. However, there are many records put out that utilize a number of Plug-ins, and sound great.
I utilize both in my studio, and even if I had the money I would still find myself going back to certain plug-ins.
This is probably the only point that you made which I slightly disagree with.
Thanks for all the advice though, I'm glad someone helped clear the air.
 
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