F
fgonza2
New member
Hi, I have a noisy and fluttery capstan on my MS16, how hard is to replace the bearings on that motor ? has anyone done this ?
thanks
thanks
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
P
pianodano
Guest
You sure are running into some highly technical problems with your machine. After all the troubles you have run into, I can't help but believe that you have bought one of those Ebay specials that sell for peanuts and has been abused by some igiot twisting and turning everything he could get his hands or a screwdriver on until it was so wacked out that even he knew he had hosed it so bad that it was hopeless. That was probably after it had been shipped halfway across the continent by the stellar UPS system, which by the way, is the perfect abreviation for what they do to precision gear - Usually (a) Piece (of) Sh** - after they get their paws on it. Odds are also that it was another one of those metal +9 guys too. There really won't be a decent machine left on the entire planet if they don't stop with that crap.
Rebuilding precision capstan or any of the machine motors is beyond the ability of the average Joe and requires highly specialized tools . Contact Tom down at Amp Services in West Palm Beach,Fl. As far as I know, he is still rebuilding MCI and Tascam motors. He is also the man to relap the heads and optically setup the headstack. Good luck. Analog Recording,Head Relapping,Motor Rebuilding,Reel to Reel Parts & Services,Sony BVH,MCI,Electrosound,Gauss
Btw, I think that I still have a spare set of heads on the head block that I will sell if you really really need them, but I would have Tom do a lab report first. I may have a capstan motor also but I have no idea of the condition it's in.
Rebuilding precision capstan or any of the machine motors is beyond the ability of the average Joe and requires highly specialized tools . Contact Tom down at Amp Services in West Palm Beach,Fl. As far as I know, he is still rebuilding MCI and Tascam motors. He is also the man to relap the heads and optically setup the headstack. Good luck. Analog Recording,Head Relapping,Motor Rebuilding,Reel to Reel Parts & Services,Sony BVH,MCI,Electrosound,Gauss
Btw, I think that I still have a spare set of heads on the head block that I will sell if you really really need them, but I would have Tom do a lab report first. I may have a capstan motor also but I have no idea of the condition it's in.
F
fgonza2
New member
thanks pianodano. I totally agree with your analysis of the life of some of those machines. i've seen them and i try to stay away from ebay from buying complete recorders. This one was from a guy that had a studio, he bought it new in 1986. I found it in a local craigslist ad and he sold it to me in $300. When i went to see it, we tested it and it could only record in 8 tracks but not the last 8. He also "threw in" a free Tascam32 that he had that was broken, along came a calibration tape and two 16 channel XLR snakes. So, i brought the machine home, and started a restoration process. The machine was very dirty inside and out, also a lot of cosmetic damage, like scratches and broken VU meters. The heads were relapped and look fine. This was extremely dirty inside, as a matter of fact there was a piece of tape stuck in one of the head connectors that was the cause of the las 8 channels not working. The machine is electrically now in good condition and cosmestically i've been slowly fixing it when i had time.
The issue now is a tape movement (up and down) very slightly but it affects all channels as the tape drifts perpendicular to the heads, so you see an amplitude change. I have now a perfect new pinch roller, so that is not the problem. I thought it was azimuth adjustment, but that doesn't seem to be either apparently. I do see the capstan shaft has some wobble and makes a slight rubbing noise which i dont know if it is normal or not. i am currently suspecting the bearings of the capstan to be the culprit.
Here's a link with a bunch of pictures of all the work i've done over the past 6 weeks on it.
https://picasaweb.google.com/104155...authkey=Gv1sRgCL7j1vW7mJ-ZvwE&feat=directlink
Let me know if you have any ideas for that tape movement issue that i mention. I talked to Tom today over the phone, he will charge $200 for changing those bearings. (assuming that is the problem)
The issue now is a tape movement (up and down) very slightly but it affects all channels as the tape drifts perpendicular to the heads, so you see an amplitude change. I have now a perfect new pinch roller, so that is not the problem. I thought it was azimuth adjustment, but that doesn't seem to be either apparently. I do see the capstan shaft has some wobble and makes a slight rubbing noise which i dont know if it is normal or not. i am currently suspecting the bearings of the capstan to be the culprit.
Here's a link with a bunch of pictures of all the work i've done over the past 6 weeks on it.
https://picasaweb.google.com/104155...authkey=Gv1sRgCL7j1vW7mJ-ZvwE&feat=directlink
Let me know if you have any ideas for that tape movement issue that i mention. I talked to Tom today over the phone, he will charge $200 for changing those bearings. (assuming that is the problem)
P
pianodano
Guest
Hi Felipe,
Well, it looks like we have another Cory on the board. I say that with the greatest admiration for your work. Cory is one of the most meticulous people you'll probably ever see. And like Cory does with his gear, it appears that you are doing an outstanding job of rehabilitaing your MS-16. I know that its a lot of work.
Did you happpen to print tones and do a log sheet on the tones and the corresponding track output levels for referrence?
It is hard to believe that anyone would ever run anything called a recording studio with a machine in the condition yours was in when you bought it. What a pig that guy must be. I doubt most people would be comfortable even walking into such filthy place as his must be.
I was not aware that you knew about Tom but he is first class. My brother bought his MCI JH24 and JH110 from Tom after he had rebuilt them. I had him relap the head stack on my MS-16. The heads are beautiful and record and playback to spec.
What's the deal with the heads on your machine ? Are you planning to have them evaluated at least ? From your pictures, it appears there is a flat spot on them. That could possibly have something to do with setting up the tape path error if they are oblique or scewed.
I know that this stuff is expensive. Always has been. But the good news is that a machine like yours with full options was well over $12k even at the end of the production run. I was there when they were new and had to wait years before I could afford one. They are a workhorse and sound awesome when set up properly. And it will happily lock to and chase your DAW with the right equipment. And regardless what others say, the DBX does a good job but you MUST record at the specified levels.
Best,
Danny
Well, it looks like we have another Cory on the board. I say that with the greatest admiration for your work. Cory is one of the most meticulous people you'll probably ever see. And like Cory does with his gear, it appears that you are doing an outstanding job of rehabilitaing your MS-16. I know that its a lot of work.
Did you happpen to print tones and do a log sheet on the tones and the corresponding track output levels for referrence?
It is hard to believe that anyone would ever run anything called a recording studio with a machine in the condition yours was in when you bought it. What a pig that guy must be. I doubt most people would be comfortable even walking into such filthy place as his must be.
I was not aware that you knew about Tom but he is first class. My brother bought his MCI JH24 and JH110 from Tom after he had rebuilt them. I had him relap the head stack on my MS-16. The heads are beautiful and record and playback to spec.
What's the deal with the heads on your machine ? Are you planning to have them evaluated at least ? From your pictures, it appears there is a flat spot on them. That could possibly have something to do with setting up the tape path error if they are oblique or scewed.
I know that this stuff is expensive. Always has been. But the good news is that a machine like yours with full options was well over $12k even at the end of the production run. I was there when they were new and had to wait years before I could afford one. They are a workhorse and sound awesome when set up properly. And it will happily lock to and chase your DAW with the right equipment. And regardless what others say, the DBX does a good job but you MUST record at the specified levels.
Best,
Danny
Last edited:
W
wkrbee
Active member
The up/down motion of the tape is more likely related to incorrect"fine tape path" adjustment,(in the manual),bad pinch roller, low back tension,or a problem with the capstan servo circuitry The servo circuit is one big feedback loop so anything wrong electrical or mechanical will resonate through the servo circuit.
W
wkrbee
Active member
Sorry I misspoke. Unstable capstan motor speed would be associated with the capstan servo circuit-up/down tape motion would be mechanical.
F
fgonza2
New member
Look at this video
Tascam MS16 tape wobble - YouTube
from 1:13 to 1:27 you can see what i am referring to. I did the whole "fine path adjustment" and couldnt find the issues that they mention there. When i modify the azimuth of the capstan or pinch roller by the minimum amount with a very thin shim i see the tape start to slack or ride upward or downward. let me know if the video gives you any ideas. About the feedback for the capstan, can this be seen on a scope? thanks
Tascam MS16 tape wobble - YouTube
from 1:13 to 1:27 you can see what i am referring to. I did the whole "fine path adjustment" and couldnt find the issues that they mention there. When i modify the azimuth of the capstan or pinch roller by the minimum amount with a very thin shim i see the tape start to slack or ride upward or downward. let me know if the video gives you any ideas. About the feedback for the capstan, can this be seen on a scope? thanks
M
mdainsd
Member
Very nice job getting through the gunk and grime on that machine. What a mess! But looking so fresh after your hard work.
F
fgonza2
New member
Hi Felipe,
Well, it looks like we have another Cory on the board. I say that with the greatest admiration for your work. Cory is one of the most meticulous people you'll probably ever see. And like Cory does with his gear, it appears that you are doing an outstanding job of rehabilitaing your MS-16. I know that its a lot of work.
Did you happpen to print tones and do a log sheet on the tones and the corresponding track output levels for referrence?
It is hard to believe that anyone would ever run anything called a recording studio with a machine in the condition yours was in when you bought it. What a pig that guy must be. I doubt most people would be comfortable even walking into such filthy place as his must be.
I was not aware that you knew about Tom but he is first class. My brother bought his MCI JH24 and JH110 from Tom after he had rebuilt them. I had him relap the head stack on my MS-16. The heads are beautiful and record and playback to spec.
What's the deal with the heads on your machine ? Are you planning to have them evaluated at least ? From your pictures, it appears there is a flat spot on them. That could possibly have something to do with setting up the tape path error if they are oblique or scewed.
I know that this stuff is expensive. Always has been. But the good news is that a machine like yours with full options was well over $12k even at the end of the production run. I was there when they were new and had to wait years before I could afford one. They are a workhorse and sound awesome when set up properly. And it will happily lock to and chase your DAW with the right equipment. And regardless what others say, the DBX does a good job but you MUST record at the specified levels.
Best,
Danny
Hey Danny, so yeah i want to get this thign back to good shape. About the machine i spent a couple of bottles of lysol dissinfecting the thing. Also hoping that i didnt bring a new colony of black windows to my house as i brought that thing over, that is why i dissassembled it completely to clean it up and kill all the critters that were living inside it...
As you can see in the video from my previous post, i have removed the headstack to isolate it from the tape path, and i can still see the tape skew, that is what causes the amplitude drift on the audio of all channels as basically the tape goes up and down slightly. I have a rerubbered and lathe rectified pinch roller that i know is perfectly round with new bearings. The heads look ok, but i want to get some extra as these machines are starting to become very scarce and i really dont know how good or bad they are right now. The have even wear at least and have been relapped once.
I've seen Cory's posts on the MS16 and others, so i'd love if he chimed in here with hi insight on the issue that i have. I dont want to give up after allt his work to restore this baby. As you can see from the pictures i also replaced the plastic nab hubs with modified hubs from the MSR24, that was a nice upgrade.
F
fgonza2
New member
So i decided to give it a shot and open the capstan to replace the bearings. I knew it was a risk but it turned out easier than expected. The MS16 capstan motor has two bearings an R8-Z and a 607-Z. I replaced both with quality NSK bearings (total $30). Definitely didnt want to go with a cheap $2 bearing for this. NSK is also the original japanese brand used. Tools needed for this were a gear puller to remove the bearing from the shaft, a snap-ring plier to remove the snap-ring washers and a clamp to reassemble the shaft and pressure fit the bearing back into the shaft. The smaller bearing is not pressure fitted. I am keeping a log with all the work that i've done while restoring this machine
Starting on picture 68 you can see the process for the capstan bearing replacement that i just described above. Take a look here
After putting it back on the machine, it worked great, very silent, you can't hear it at all, very smooth vs before where you could hear a rubbing noise. Now i am waiting for a new fan from mouser that is coming tomorrow to replace the stock fan that is very noisy. I want to wait for that in order to replace it and close the machine. This thing is heavy and a pain to disassemble in the back, so i am trying to do all the changes now before i put it back on its chassis. So after that i will know if this actually helped my tape skew problem or not, if it doesn't, at least the capstan is like new now and super silent like it should be.
Starting on picture 68 you can see the process for the capstan bearing replacement that i just described above. Take a look here
After putting it back on the machine, it worked great, very silent, you can't hear it at all, very smooth vs before where you could hear a rubbing noise. Now i am waiting for a new fan from mouser that is coming tomorrow to replace the stock fan that is very noisy. I want to wait for that in order to replace it and close the machine. This thing is heavy and a pain to disassemble in the back, so i am trying to do all the changes now before i put it back on its chassis. So after that i will know if this actually helped my tape skew problem or not, if it doesn't, at least the capstan is like new now and super silent like it should be.
F
fgonza2
New member
Sorry if i am being boring with this topic. hopefully it helps someone some day as many others have helped me.
So to provide an update, i reassembled the machine tonight, and things are looking much better now after the bearing replacement of the capstan and shim adjustment of the PR and capstan. This was a pain. I took two videos of the tape going through the sync and repro heads, take a look:
Repro head: MS16 Repro Head Tape movement - YouTube
Sync head: Tascam MS16 Sync Head - YouTube
this is as stable as i can get it, list of changes:
-Capstan azimuth
-Pinch roller azimuth
-New pinch roller bearings and straightened on lathe
-New capstan bearings
-Straightened rubber on counter roller on a lathe
-Tension adjustments (Play and winding)
I still need to do more testing to see how stable this is, but it is looking very promising, i am kinda little relieved after all this time working on this...
So to provide an update, i reassembled the machine tonight, and things are looking much better now after the bearing replacement of the capstan and shim adjustment of the PR and capstan. This was a pain. I took two videos of the tape going through the sync and repro heads, take a look:
Repro head: MS16 Repro Head Tape movement - YouTube
Sync head: Tascam MS16 Sync Head - YouTube
this is as stable as i can get it, list of changes:
-Capstan azimuth
-Pinch roller azimuth
-New pinch roller bearings and straightened on lathe
-New capstan bearings
-Straightened rubber on counter roller on a lathe
-Tension adjustments (Play and winding)
I still need to do more testing to see how stable this is, but it is looking very promising, i am kinda little relieved after all this time working on this...