Tascam MS-16 1"

[sweetbeats]

Excellent! I never did get to use one myself but I have seen them, they seem pretty good and look a little like they're built to survive an earthquake!

It...sounded...fabulous.

A 238? Ahh, good ol' 8-track 1/8" definitely not the best for fidelity but I guess it's just like what's been said about +3 tape - it doesn't take much to push the envelope to a point where physics start to colour what you put in. I did have a little portastudio thing going back some years, can't remember which one but that had some very interesting responses in it! I only wish I'd been old enough and wise enough to have known what I could've done with it if I'd tried!

Hey, easy! Its almost 3/16"!!

The dbx wasn't tracking right on that 238 and IIRC tracks 1 and 7 and 8 were misbehaving, but this is the what I tracked to it: https://www.torridheatstudios.com/audio/Personal%20Music%20Sampler/Tascam%20238%20Test%20(wma).wma

Thanks for the links to your MM-1000 pics - that is a *beeeautiful* machine! And boy you've really cleaned it up well, it looks like new! I'd put money on it being as spotless technically as it is aesthetically from the sound of the work you've been doing on it! Those machines had 2" heads available too didn't they? And space for an extra 8 cards. Owning something that could be a 2" 16-track really *is* something, not that you'll maybe ever need that with what you have - I'm sure you're right and that really is going to be a special day when you finally get to hit the tape with your best signals! You gotta post to the forums about that experience! Congratulations on finding such a fantastic machine anyway - I'm definitely a fair bit envious! Although I do like my extravagant number of channels...

It looks better in the pictures than it really is...its a bit rough around the edges and has taken a lot of "elbow grease" to get it to where its at. This is the thread on it if you haven't seen it already. It'll give you an idea of how it came into my possession and the work its required thus far. 8 tracks is an enjoyable format for me and has plenty of room for creativity, plus 1" tape is much more economical than 2" at least new, but 16 tracks is ideal for me and I plan on converting the MM-1000 to 2" 16-track. I have almost everything to do that, including the 8 electronics modules AND the headblock which needs a little TLC and some reassembly, but all in good time. The MM-1000 was a 2" 16-track in standard form...the first 2" 16-track mind you. It was also offered in 1" 8-track and 2" 24-track trim, the latter being special order. The advantage at the time was that studios could purchase the 1" 8-track if funds were limited and then scale up to the 2" 16-track as finances allowed.

By the way did you read the post on GearSlutz about that MM-1000 that was getting given away? Had a couple of interesting posts about an ex-Woodland machine that someone bought. It's over at http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-...-its-free.html anyway if you wanted to check it out.

Yes, I did see that one.

Didn't know it had a timecode track on that deck, I've only ever seen a Fostex with that feature in person, but that was pretty impressive.

I know for sure of two Tascam halftrack decks that had the center timecode option...one was the BR-20 (BR-20T with the 3-track heads) and the ATR60-2 (ATR60-2T with three track heads).

If you haven't read this page I'd definitely recommend it:

http://www.in2guitar.com/stories.html

Hadn't seen that one before...THAT'S a good read...

The early 440 decks absolutely *required* jockeying or "shuttling" the transport properly when transitioning from fast-wind to stop and then play. The 440C incorporated a motion sensing assembly that monitored the transport and wouldn't allow play until the transport had come to a full stop. The MM-1000 has motion sensing as well but my understanding is that folks still manually shuttled as the did prior to the motion sensing convention because sometimes the motion sensor didn't work right...! The Ampex decks of that era (and probably elsewhere as well) rewound a 2500' reel in half the time of any of my 10.5" Tascam transports...less than a minute and a half. I remember thinking that my Tascams were "hummin'"...boy-howdy does the Ampex get going. Read toward the end of the MM-1000 thread and I document my experience rewinding a 14" reel loaded with 5000' of tape and the breeze coming off the transport...wow.

Oh, BTW, lots of pictures of all sorts of stuff in my picture library...

 

[retrodave]

Anybody wanna trade for a 238?

Hey Sweetbeats,

Thanks for your reply - sorry I haven't had the chance to respond until now.

this is the what I tracked to it:

That sounds *gorgeous*! Very warm and very clean - and I like the ideas I'm wondering nervously now if my MS-16 would be able to beat it given the same source material! It sounds like you have a guitar and a couple of keyboard sounds going on there, some reverb/delay too, is that right? Did you use much EQ or was it literally just something clean to test the tracks with? I was expecting drums from your username, you're obviously a multitalented guy! The higher line in that clip does sound amazingly warm - *great* stuff!

It looks better in the pictures than it really is...its a bit rough around the edges and has taken a lot of "elbow grease" to get it to where its at.

Well, it still looks pretty damn good to me! Just like harmonic distortion I think imperfection is often better, it's nicer to see a well-used (read well-loved!) piece of gear with some history to it than a spotless showroom model - and that really is *some* multitrack you got there... I'm definitely slightly envious!

I plan on converting the MM-1000 to 2" 16-track. I have almost everything to do that, including the 8 electronics modules AND the headblock...

Stop it man, there's only so much drooling one person can do before someone calls a doctor!! Wow! You're definitely one lucky guy and I have no doubt all the hard work will definitely pay off with this one. A 16-track MM1000 eh? Something very, very special...

the first 2" 16-track mind you.

I did not know that!

It was also offered in 1" 8-track and 2" 24-track trim... if funds were limited... scale up to the 2" 16-track as finances allowed.

I wonder how many of the 24-track versions came off the production line? I bet there's still a good few of them being well maintained in studios around the world. Clever idea too, allowing a company to start off with the cheaper model and upgrading headblocks and modules later, Ampex had some awesome people for sure! If I ever win the lottery here I'd love to invest a 16-track 2" - that's a lovely machine right there!

I know for sure of two Tascam halftrack decks that had the center timecode option...one was the BR-20 (BR-20T with the 3-track heads) and the ATR60-2 (ATR60-2T with three track heads).

I've only ever seen the Fostex E-2 with timecode in real life, although I've come across a fair few other nice halftracks without. Am I right in thinking the ATR-60 series had a very similar transport to my MS-16? I read timkroeger's post on his ATR-60/16 before I bought my MS-16, it looked in beautiful condition. Nice multitrack.

The MM-1000 has motion sensing as well but my understanding is... sometimes the motion sensor didn't work right...!

Ohhh my... that's *not* good! I bet you treat that STOP button like it's a channel arm on a solo track of a Hendrix master I know I would! I can't imagine 2500' in that time - my 16-track seems to shift along nicely but it's only just got going about 1:30 I reckon!

lots of pictures of all sorts of stuff in my picture library...

Cheers man! That's excellent, I've had a quick look but I'm really looking forward to checking through those properly, thanks for the link to your MM-1000 thread too. Nice drum booth by the way! Makes me with I had a garage At the moment I'm confined to recording drums during the day when the locals are out What kind of sound and isolation do you get with that booth, is it a floating room design? In any case thanks very much for the links, that's really kind of you!

A quick update on the MS-16 - not much of an update really - the manual I mentioned recently *was* the one from Craigslist that you posted the link to, thank you very much for that! The guy was a star, he just wanted shot of it and was happy to see it going to a good home. It hasn't arrived yet but I'm hoping when it does in a week or so that it'll contain the exploded views and schematic, as I can't do anything until I can rotate the guides and try a calibration. The MS-16 Service Manual definitely *isn't* available from Tascam any more! *Very* bad news, looks like I'll be hunting around from someone willing to scan or lend one to me if the one on the way doesn't have the info I'll need. It's a shame to be stuck doing nothing for the time being (obviously I'm keen as mustard to get this deck going and start tracking to it!), but I know if a job's worth doing its worth doing right. Hopefully some good news to follow in a few weeks' time anyway..

Thanks for the reply Sweetbeats! Looking forward to catchin' up with you later.

Cheers!

 

[sweetbeats]

That sounds *gorgeous*! Very warm and very clean - and I like the ideas I'm wondering nervously now if my MS-16 would be able to beat it given the same source material! It sounds like you have a guitar and a couple of keyboard sounds going on there, some reverb/delay too, is that right? Did you use much EQ or was it literally just something clean to test the tracks with? I was expecting drums from your username, you're obviously a multitalented guy! The higher line in that clip does sound amazingly warm - *great* stuff!

Drums are definitely my primary. I started playing bass in college when it wasn't feasible to get to a drumkit very often. Your MS16 has MUCH greater potential than the 238, but it IS a testament to the cassette multitrack...they are underrated. I too was shocked at the warmth that came back on playback and that was what cemented my conviction to get an analog tape recorder again. No EQ, a complex but stock reverb effect off of my Yamaha 01X on some of the tracks, all tracks are electric bass except for one track of high register plucked counter-melody on guitar. I tracked everything dry and added effects on mixdown direct to the computer. It was quick and dirty, like a 30 minute start-to-finish spontaneous idea thing. I was just totally smitten by how the reverb effect responded to the warmth of the ambient harmonic lines from the bass...just lush and soupy but then also how the TAPE handled the bass line, which I think I doubled an octave or two up and used a pick for both, but I was able to hear everything so well...the attack and then the power...and like I said it was quick and dirty and so when I played it back through the monitors with some effect in the mix it was almost too easy to get good sounds and immediately I started researching 1/2" Tascam 8-tracks...I was settled on looking for a 38 because I figured its all I could afford but then I stumbled on a 48 and 58 as a pair for $250, and thus began the adventure.

I wonder how many of the 24-track versions came off the production line? I bet there's still a good few of them being well maintained in studios around the world. Clever idea too, allowing a company to start off with the cheaper model and upgrading headblocks and modules later, Ampex had some awesome people for sure! If I ever win the lottery here I'd love to invest a 16-track 2" - that's a lovely machine right there!

Relatively few of the 24-track versions were made. Not much more than 500 MM-1000's in total were made. They were a quick solution to rush something to market to stay ahead of the game. Industry had started murmering about 16 tracks and in fact one studio came to Ampex asking them to make one but Ampex actually didn't think it was prudent; that the market demand would never exist. Well, then Ampex got wind that Scully and 3M had 16-tracks in the works and then Ampex scrambled to get something together. Ampex audio division was more of a "custom-shop" than a production line...the MM-1000 is sort of a parts-bin machine. Ampex took a 2" quad VTR transport (from the VR-1100/1200 series) and mated it with their 440 electronics. This might sound a chintzy way to do things but the VR-1100/1200 transports running in the field were many and had years of field testing under their "belts". Reliable for certain, and the 440 electronics were a wonderful design and had been field-tested too by that point, so it was a mating of two good systems. What the MM-1000 was criticized for was its ungainly size, lack of noiseless punch-in facility, and "crude" transport (no dynamic tension control) and non-servo capstan. All these things were addressed during the production life of the MM-1000 except for the dynamic tension, but it was still just a behemoth. The MM-1100 incorporated all those add-ons from the beginning including a simple constant tension mechanism...the MM-1100 utilizes the same basic transport in terms of the motors but a more narrow console design...all those 440 electronics were centralized into drawers of amp cards with common PSU's rather than being decentralized in separate modules, and of course the meters were centralized into a common meter panel. The MM-1100 was frought with some reliability issues though, and the the guides in the tape path were all static and scrape flutter was an issue. Enter its successor, the much regarded MM-1200, which addressed the reliability issues and featured a tape path loaded with rolling guides. Nice. But if you look at the amp cards in the drawers you can still see more than just 440 heritage...that was indeed a good design by Larry Miller and his team at Ampex...good enough to stand the test of time and on a machine regarded as one of the best if not THE best analog multitrack machines ever, the MM-1200. BUT...I do like very much that there isn't an IC in sight on my MM-1000,and I have some reliable and experienced sources that say they prefer the sound of the MM-1000, and though there are some mixed reports, folks "back in the day" recall that they appreciated having the MM-1000 available for backup as the 1100 always seemed to be on the fritz for something. Not wanting to give the 1100 a bad name as most that you'll find today have received the mods and improvements to address the reliability aspect and have been retrofitted with rolling guides. As a production machine though the MM-1200 is much favored for its relative sophistication in a production environment. But for guys like me that like a tape deck you can literally climb on or into, and that don't care about gapless/noiseless punch-ins or sync capability, and also like to have another spot upon which to cook food if the oven in the kitchen is on the fritz (those tension resistors get HOT), the MM-1000 is lovely.

I've only ever seen the Fostex E-2 with timecode in real life, although I've come across a fair few other nice halftracks without. Am I right in thinking the ATR-60 series had a very similar transport to my MS-16? I read timkroeger's post on his ATR-60/16 before I bought my MS-16, it looked in beautiful condition. Nice multitrack.

Ahhh yes...let's indeed get back to talking Tascam...I've hogged enough of your thread.

The basic tape path design on the MS16 has its foundings in the model 58. The 58 and 38 were successors to the 80-8...the 58 brought aboard some advanced features not present on the 80-8 allowing it to function well in a more professional production environment, while the 38 took all that was great about the 80-8 and, along with evolutionary advances throughout, put it in a more affordable package for the serious project studio or home recordist. The 80-8 was a bit out of reach of the latter, and not enough for the former. One of the features designed into the 58 was the Omega tape path, sort of a flattened closed-loop design that eliminated the need for an impedance roller. Here is some info on it:

Tascam was the first to produce a 1" 16-track with the 90-16. It was pretty short-lived and was succeeded by the 85-16, which also had some reliability issues and was succeeded by the 85-16B which wasn't a bad machine, but the MS16 just jumped leaps and bounds ahead of the 85-16B in terms of performance, features and design. The 58 and MS16 share the same amp cards, but by the time the MS16 was introduced Tascam was using those lovely ceramic capstan shafts. The ATR60-16 is indeed the direct successor of the MS16, but for many its a toss up. Both great machines and some say the MS16 sounds better. The MS16 was designed to couple with the AQ-65 which is why it has that cool sync feature built into track 16. Just a really great design and a great transport. You should feel proud to have one. It will serve you well. It is very well designed and built and there is better community support for them as well. I think if I ever had a 1" 16-track machine it would be an MS16.

Nice drum booth by the way! Makes me with I had a garage At the moment I'm confined to recording drums during the day when the locals are out What kind of sound and isolation do you get with that booth, is it a floating room design?

Crude and simple...solid core doors I got for free from a salvage operation screwed together sitting right on carpet which is sitting right on the garage floor. Not good for mixing because the room actually has horrendous resonant frequencies, but it sounds really good for drums considering its only 6' x 8' or so. I'm getting ready to tear it down as we are remodeling and there will be a proper sound isolated 10' x 11' room in its place. It'll have to fit the DAW, analog gear, a small repair and workspace and the drums and guitars, but it'll be a huge step-up from anything I've had thus far.

A quick update on the MS-16 - not much of an update really - the manual I mentioned recently *was* the one from Craigslist that you posted the link to, thank you very much for that! The guy was a star, he just wanted shot of it and was happy to see it going to a good home. It hasn't arrived yet but I'm hoping when it does in a week or so that it'll contain the exploded views and schematic, as I can't do anything until I can rotate the guides and try a calibration. The MS-16 Service Manual definitely *isn't* available from Tascam any more! *Very* bad news, looks like I'll be hunting around from someone willing to scan or lend one to me if the one on the way doesn't have the info I'll need. It's a shame to be stuck doing nothing for the time being (obviously I'm keen as mustard to get this deck going and start tracking to it!), but I know if a job's worth doing its worth doing right. Hopefully some good news to follow in a few weeks' time anyway..

I'll be really surprised if the manual you get isn't the full operations and maintenance manual. I think for a machine like the MS16 they weren't separate documents. If it has fold-out schematics and such it should be the full service manual. Here's hoping. I've seena couple others on eBay though. Just hold out and see what you got and let us know.

 

[retrodave]

I *GOOOOT* the maaaanualll!

Hey Sweetbeats,

Wow, your posts are as long as mine! Thanks so much for your reply, it's good to hear from you. I'm glad you were able to learn bass even though you didn't have good access to a kit, by the sound of your 238 sample you got pretty good at it! Are you a self-taught kinda guy or an academic out of interest? I always wanted to do a music course but found the idea a bit intimidating, I've taught myself a good bit of theory but probably would've been better off if I'd learned the proper way, having said that I seem to have managed to jump further forward than I might've done so it's not all bad. I'm *amazed* that demo you posted was just bass and guitar, some of those sounds are very precise, almost keyboard-like, and I can hear a chorus-effect going on which totally fooled me! I've never used an 01X (or any digital desk for that matter ) but you're bang on about that reverb - it sounds *beautiful* with the guitars, "lush and soupy"'s definitely the right way to describe it! So no EQ at all on tracking, wow... but a miked amp though surely? I'm even beginning to wonder about that! I'm not surprised you didn't hesitate to investigate tape after that, that's definitely a very clear indication and I can't *wait* to hit my 1" with some signals, more so now than before! I've been tracking to digital for years now and I'm finally learning about how to get nice, warm sounds with that, it's going to be very interesting to see how tape responds to me now I know a bit more about what I'm doing!

I stumbled on a 48 and 58 as a pair for $250, and thus began the adventure.

You really do have a knack for finding the bargains don't you! Man, I wish I had that ability. Did the 48 and 58 by any chance feature as a "Sweetbeats story" like the guy quoted in your MM-1000 thread? You'll be pleased to know the manual turned up today - and *exactly* as you said, everything in the one document! So I'm over the moon as you can imagine! I'm not sure when I'll have time to start stripping the MS-16 down and rotating guides and the like, probably this weekend, but I can't wait to get started. So thank you so much for that - you even managed to weed out a bargain for me too! If you weren't so good with drums, bass and tape I'd say you'd missed your calling...

Relatively few of the 24-track versions were made. Not much more than 500 MM-1000's in total were made.

Wow, really? There can't be that many left in servicable condition now, that's a great shame

Ampex actually didn't think it was prudent; that the market demand would never exist.

Lol! I guess nobody's perfect...

So the MM-1000 is essentially a "hyrbid" kind of design (using the word loosely!)? Knowing how solid video transports needed to be it actually seems like a good way of doing things, like you say the 440 circuitry had had plenty of op time too. I didn't notice the lack of active tensioning though until you mentioned it, I take it all the tension control is essentially done with the reel motors? I'd never have guessed that! I'm with you on the lack of IC's being a good thing (I did think "valves??" at first in a moment of stupidity! ), and I love the idea of separate modules for each channel, I love modular systems with simple interfaces as you stand a good chance of being able to homebrew a module if needs be and parts are scarce. So there's no microprocessor in the MM-1000's either?? That's *definitely* a good thing from a maintenance point of view! I haven't studied the MS-16 manual that well yet, but I'm assuming it's got a 'custom' system in there, not a nice 6052 & EPROM I could back up and replace... but I guess nothing lasts forever. Except your MM-1000 of course That stands a good chance of seeing the next millenium!

for guys like me that like a tape deck you can literally climb on or into... and also like to have another spot upon which to cook food if the oven in the kitchen is on the fritz.., the MM-1000 is lovely.

ROFL! Excellent! And I couldn't agree more - except that I might not fit into my control room with one of those beauties in there (I couldn't even fashion a machine room big enough!). Definitely thumbs up to solid engineering and components you can solder, remake, obtain and see

Ahhh yes...let's indeed get back to talking Tascam...I've hogged enough of your thread.

Not at all Sweetbeats, it's a pleasure having the chance to chat a bit! And I don't think there's going to be anything groundbreaking to report about my Tascam for a while - I'd much rather hear about your setup for the time being! I was going to ask actually if I should start another thread, or PM you or something? I don't usually get talking a lot on forums so I'm half expecting to be told off by a mod for going off topic on my *own* thread! Lol! But yeah, please do continue, I'm learning a lot and it's good to meet some people as nutty about *real* (reel? ) recording as I am.

Thanks very much for all the info on the MS-16's design history and the Omega tape path - I didn't realise that configuration was so central to the line, but it does make sense having read the scan you posted. I'm learning tons about the MS-16 at the moment, mainly from yourself I have to say! But I'm beginning to realise *why* so many people like its design, and I'm certainly a fan of the ceramic capstan now. It is a beautiful machine, and even in the bad state it's in (and probably not having been switched on for five or ten years!) it's amazing it powered up and ran perfectly first time, it even sounded great! I have to say, promising though the capabilities of this multitrack are, I'd probably still have to think very, very hard if the chance came to swap it with an older Ampex - that's *including* the fact that I know I can't get one through the main door!

The MS16 was designed to couple with the AQ-65 which is why it has that cool sync feature built into track 16.

Now this is where I really look like a rookie... erm, sync feature in track 16?? I didn't know anything about that... hang on a sec while I RTFM!

You should feel proud to have one.

Believe me I truly am - for all the jesting I really do feel very, *very* lucky to own this machine, and in reasonable condition too, I know there must be people out there who'd give a lot for the chance to use a genuine 16-track with good track width, and a whole lot more who would if only they knew what it could potentially do in the right hands! I couldn't have been prouder on the day I picked this baby up - or staggered with it - man, it's a *heavy* transport!!

It will serve you well. It is very well designed and built and there is better community support for them as well. I think if I ever had a 1" 16-track machine it would be an MS16.

Well, we could swap... That's good news and I hope and feel sure you're right. I do like the amount of support I've discovered for this machine, and it's kind folks like yourself and Ghost who make all the difference. I want to give something back though, as it does seem wrong that for all the support available there doesn't seem to be sight nor sound of a manual even from Tascam! So I'm planning on taking a day or two to scan this one, and offer it to a good Analog site where it can be easily found by others in the same predicament I was in before your Craigslist ad bailed me out! It'd be nice to know the info was there for reference.

Crude and simple...solid core doors I got for free from a salvage operation screwed together sitting right on carpet which is sitting right on the garage floor. Not good for mixing because the room actually has horrendous resonant frequencies, but it sounds really good for drums considering its only 6' x 8' or so.

Quality stuff! If it ain't broke and all that. I can see what you mean about the resonance problems, especially with such a small space, you must've done well to get a good sound there! Having said that a certain degree of node-iness (nice, a new word! ) is sometimes a good thing, I love being able to walk in, move a mic a foot or two, and cancel out all the nasty 100Hz that was bleeding into it Guess you gotta know your space!

I'm getting ready to tear it down as we are remodeling and there will be a proper sound isolated 10' x 11' room in its place.

*Nice*. That's gonna be very, very useful I'm sure, I wish I had the room to build something like that! I'd probably be a better drummer if I wasn't worried about waking the neighbours when I practice, lol! What are you planning on for acoustic treatment? Being a drummer primarily I bet you're all over the mid to low-end response and have a really clear idea in mind of what you want to hear. Personally I'd love a *big* (small hall sized) live room for drums, the scope there would be amazing, and it'd be awesome not to have to rely on a good reverb algo to get an ambient drum sound.

It'll have to fit the DAW, analog gear, a small repair and workspace and the drums and guitars, but it'll be a huge step-up from anything I've had thus far.

Not all that *inside* the isolated room as well surely? Sounds good anyway, and I'm really pleased for you that you'll be able to get a better area to work in, I really did like your little 238 demo and I'd be very interested to know what you can do with your kit set up and more than 30 minutes and a test to track up! Sounds to me like you might have a really *good* and different sound there, so all the very, very best of luck with the alterations, and definitely keep the forum posted, I know I'll be on the lookout for when you get up and running at last!

Thanks again for your help - I'll hopefully crack open the MS-16 this weekend and let you guys know how it goes. I reckon she'll either cal up or I'll be left with half a year of scoping to do... wish me luck!

Cheers man!

 

[sweetbeats]

Are you a self-taught kinda guy or an academic out of interest?

Started piano at age 5, did that for a couple years, played harp for a couple years at age 10, did nothing for years and then one day at age 17 (like somebody flicking on a switch) I just HAD to start playing drums and it hasn't turned off. Picked up bass and some guitar and keys again over the years. Minored in music in college, had a fantastic percussion mentor for 5 years, took 100 and 200-level theory and classical composition, played in every ensemble I could fit in (marching, concert and symphonic bands, orchestra, percussion ensemble, typically 2 jazz ensembles, etc.) and typically was involved in 2~3 bands at a time outside of school during those years. Music was big in my house as I was growing up; my mom is a well-educated concert level pianist, my dad can play anything but is really good at classical guitar, trombone and upright bass...my brother played drums when I was little and some piano...mostly had classical music on the hi-fi set during my young years...Ravel's Bolero and Wagner's Ride of the Valkyrie were my favs at the age of 6 IIRC. So you can see its been a blend. I have had SOME formal training on bass but just months. I've learned so much from the different groups I've been in and being around people better than I am. Much of what I did in college was improvised music, the kind that would switch between jazz to reggae to thrash in one song...Knitting Factory inspired stuff. I just like it all. I honestly don't think there is a style of music I don't like. There are some I prefer not to listen to, , but there is something you can learn and appreciate from it all.

I'm *amazed* that demo you posted was just bass and guitar, some of those sounds are very precise, almost keyboard-like,

Yeah, I really like pad-type keyboard layers y'know? My brother and I listened to lots of ambient music as teens and when you don't have a keyboard you make do, even if it is just a borrowed generic P-bass with the frets rudely torn out and a delay pedal. That's what I started with and you can do amazing ambient sounds with delay and plucked harmonics swelled in with the volume knob.

So no EQ at all on tracking, wow... but a miked amp though surely?

Right, I've really grown to dislike eq and I don't use it unless I have to, and if I have to I assume its because I didn't setup the mic and source right. When I think of eq now I think of it more as a feedback management tool in FOH applications. For recording I like high shelving filters for sparkle at mixdown, and low-mid sweepable peaking filters for pulling out mud so don't get me wrong...eq is a *tremendously* handy tool, I just have learned that things can sound SO MUCH better if you can just spend some time with the setup...matching the mic for the source, and placement of the source and the environment, and then probably most useful is the placement of the mic itself. And no the bass was direct to the intrument preamp on the 01X. It was quick and dirty remember? No time to setup an amp and mic or even a compressor. I have yet in my life to have a space where that stuff can be setup and left setup. That's coming and that will be exciting, but I've learned a lot by having to pinch and make do.

You really do have a knack for finding the bargains don't you! Man, I wish I had that ability. Did the 48 and 58 by any chance feature as a "Sweetbeats story"...?

Yes. You can use the search function in the forum to search for threads authored by me with the word "story" in the title I think. MM-1000, Tascam M-__ (prototype mixer), Tascam M-308B, 234, M-520, 48, 58, 388, BR-20T, Soundtracs MX...

You'll be pleased to know the manual turned up today - and *exactly* as you said, everything in the one document!

Indeed I AM pleased! That's awesome!

I didn't notice the lack of active tensioning though until you mentioned it, I take it all the tension control is essentially done with the reel motors?

Tape tension in pretty much ANY open-reel transport is maintained by the reel motors...the differences come in how sophisticated that tension management is. On the MM-1000 there are 3 tension resistors with a total of 4 variable "outputs" for holdback and takeup tensions in both PLAY and in fast-wind. They are big wire-wound resistors with wires connected to clamps and the position of the clamp on the resistor sets the level of resistance and hence the amount of tension the motor provides in the given transport mode. I call this a static system, because the setting doesn't change (unless you adjust it). Basically the capstan is dragging that tape kicking and screaming through the tape path and the holdback tension setting makes sure there is good tape to head contact on the input side of the capstan, and the takeup tension makes sure that the tape doesn't go slack on the output side of the capstan. Now in the case of your MS16, you have a dynamic servo controlled system where the reel motors talk to each other and get feedback via the tension arms which tell the servo system how much tension there is on the tape on either side of the capstan and the torque of the motors are independently adjusted to ensure as much constant tension as possible throughout the reel. You see with my MM-1000 the tension is going to change as the reel progresses. At the beginning of the reel on the supply side the holdback tension isn't going to as much because the longer the lever arm the lower the force with a given torque applied to the pivot point. Now at the end of the reel the lever arm is much shorter and so now your tension will be higher. This has worked out okay but you can see why the transport is considered "crude" by today's standards. Your MS16 maintains constant tension throughout, and that means it is much more consistent in performance as well as being much more gentle on the tape. Check this out: https://www.torridheatstudios.com/ftp/share/movies/Tascam%20BR-20T/2010_03_28/MVI_6489.mov That's a video I took of my success getting my Tascam BR-20T to chase-lock to Cubase via MTC. Go to a point about halfway into the video and there are about three times I send the BR-20T chasing a point in the Cubase timeline. The point here is that while the BR-20T is racing to the new point and then slowing down and then hunting for the frame to go into PLAY and lock, it is the servo system and reel motors that are doing all the driving. This is an excellent example of dynamic tension control as at no point do you see the tension arms bottom out or the tape go slack. The system is so fast and responsive. Your MS16 has a similar system and it is quite sophisticated and well done especially considering what the MS16 sold for as new compared to other contemporaries. The MM-1100 and MM-1200 incorporated a basic dynamic tension system that effected the supply side only...IIRC takeup tension was still static.

So there's no microprocessor in the MM-1000's either?? That's *definitely* a good thing from a maintenance point of view! I haven't studied the MS-16 manual that well yet, but I'm assuming it's got a 'custom' system in there, not a nice 6052 & EPROM I could back up and replace... but I guess nothing lasts forever.

Nada...not a chip anywhere on the whole thing. Now, if I had the DC servo capstan motor that would be different...the servo boards do have IC's on them. My capstan is the AC hysteresis sync motor, a brushless AC torque motor. There are a number of standard chips on your MS-16 as well as some proprietary chips, but you have to appreciate that your MS16 is a quarter-century old and still running. Doesn't hurt to have spares but there are no known achilles heels that I know of with ANY of the Tascam machines from that era aside from having to replace elecotrolytic caps at some point...no "do this/replace that before you do anything with your Tascam _____!" y'know? evm1024 got his MS16 for $200 with a field of blown CMOS chips. He's a really brilliant experienced technician so he was able to fix it himself but my point is that once the offending parts were replaced and clean power rails were ensured its back up. Now THAT'S saying something.

Not at all Sweetbeats, it's a pleasure having the chance to chat a bit! And I don't think there's going to be anything groundbreaking to report about my Tascam for a while - I'd much rather hear about your setup for the time being! I was going to ask actually if I should start another thread, or PM you or something? I don't usually get talking a lot on forums so I'm half expecting to be told off by a mod for going off topic on my *own* thread! Lol! But yeah, please do continue, I'm learning a lot and it's good to meet some people as nutty about *real* (reel? ) recording as I am.

We have a nice community here, and the mods don't seem to mind things drifting off topic. Trolling is another issue but it really doesn't happen much. I think the discussion is good.

PLEASE keep up your postings on your MS16. Talldog had one but he's now smitten by his Otari MX70. evm1024 has his but isn't actively using it at the moment. The Ghost of FM has one but he is actively trying to sell it as you know, so...WE NEED MORE MS16's TO FILL IN THE HOLES!! After a bit you and pianodano (who is very astute and experienced with his MS16) may be the only active posters here that are using them...who am I missing? Seems I'm missing somebody...

I have to say, promising though the capabilities of this multitrack are, I'd probably still have to think very, very hard if the chance came to swap it with an older Ampex - that's *including* the fact that I know I can't get one through the main door!

Yeah, I understand, but get to know the MS16 first and what it can do for you. The Ampex is just a good fit for me personality-wise and application-wise. There is an attachment to it that helps to fill in the compromises which include its size, rarity of and high price of parts, limited community support, non-existent manufacturer support, and hearty but indeed "crude" transport. There is no perfect machine...there will always be *some* compromise and often it comes down to what you can afford to purchase and keep running. Another thing too is that head design advanced over the years and the heads on the MS16 are more efficient and sophisticated, so there is some unfairness in comparing apples-to-apples as far as the format. The track width on your MS-16 is just slightly less than a 2" 24-track. Did you know that? It is the track spacing that is smaller. That translates to decreased crosstalk performance, but it is not really appropriate to call the 1" 16-track a lesser format IMO. Just things to think about. But there is something to a behemoth "big iron" machine like the Ampex and there is a dynamic responsiveness and "guts" that I think comes from overbuilt discrete amplifier electronics and massive headroom, and then a track format that can get spanked and take it.

Now this is where I really look like a rookie... erm, sync feature in track 16??

There's a switch over on the left of the control surface of the transport that changes the I/O for track 16 to the sync I/O jacks on the back. Convenience. No repatching to be done if you want to stripe timecode on track 16 and chase-lock the machine or hook it up to an autolocator.

What are you planning on for acoustic treatment?

I have NO idea. I have salvaged materials laying about but I'm not expecting too much. Its gonna be a 10' x 11' room with a relatively low ceiling, and it'll be full of stuff so its not going to be a live sounding room...the walls will be double layer sheetrock (1/2" and 5/8") and two separate 2" x 4" stud walls all around filled with rock wool, so it'll be somewhat dry anyway. I'll focus mainly on getting a decent sound at the console which will involve pumping white noise and putting up the analyzer mic and trying different things in different places to flatten things out. Mostly I'm just going to want to PLAY!

Not all that *inside* the isolated room as well surely? Sounds good anyway, and I'm really pleased for you that you'll be able to get a better area to work in, I really did like your little 238 demo and I'd be very interested to know what you can do with your kit set up and more than 30 minutes and a test to track up! Sounds to me like you might have a really *good* and different sound there, so all the very, very best of luck with the alterations, and definitely keep the forum posted, I know I'll be on the lookout for when you get up and running at last!

Yep...I'm spread between two spaces right now, a 6' x 5' space with a 44" ceiling and the 6' x 8' booth in the garage for everything. I just want to be able to consolidate and the new room will work great. We're not rich and my wife and I have 4 children and we are currently in a 1400 sq. ft. home with one bathroom...3 small bedrooms...and we homeschool so things are just a bit cramped. Our focus is on relaxing space constraints for the whole family and I'm happy just to be able to work a room into the plan. It simply would not be right to prioritize our limited funds on a big space or multiple spaces for what amounts to a hobby.

Here are a couple other things I've worked on though they're both digital...no analog machines ready at the time these were done:

This unmastered scribble that started out as a one-take improvised test with a 3 piece drumkit. I was trying to see how bad a pair of $5 dynamic mics and one kick mic (D112) could sound when haphazardly placed and run into the least of my pres (the 01X) with no processing whatsoever. The sound came back good and I started hearing other stuff so I put down the bass line I heard in my head, and then the 2 guitar tracks. The bass guitar was, again, unprocessed and direct into the Hi-Z input on the 01X (passive humbucking Ibanez Roadstar II bass from the 80's). The electric guitar (Korean LP archtop solid-body knock-off) was tracked wet through a stock patch (reverb, compression and eq in the patch) on my Digitech GNX-2 and then into line ins on the 01X. I added some reverb to the overall mix using a stock patch in Cubase and added mono delay to the guitar tracks, but no dynamics processing or eq at any point. This was about 3 hours in total. Made me realize I've been fretting WAYYYY too much about what kind of mics and preamps I'm using. Again, its unmastered so the volume level is quiet...kick drum is woofy...there are some things left desired for me but it was fun, sounded better than I thought and I like it...who cares what anybody else says or thinks...it was fun.

Then there's this bit...this was a demo project I did for a young lady in the youth group at our church. She was entering a songwriting contest. She wrote the piece and sings and is playing one of the keyboard tracks...another friend is on most of the guitar tracks. I'm on kit and bass, some VI parts I added as well as the high register guitar arpegios and the lead-in to the crunchy part at the end.

 

[retrodave]

Nice work! (1/2)

Hey Sweetbeats,

Thanks for your reply, great to hear from you! I'm sorry I didn't get the chance to respond sooner, I've been using all my spare time the last couple of days to scan the MS-16 manual in, it's a *lot* of work! I'm doing well though, I've got about 10% of the way through and managed to convert it all to proper text with the diagrams as images for a PDF - so hopefully in a week or two the whole thing will be ready to archive! It seems worth doing well for the sake of preserving it.

Wow, that's an amazing musical background you got there! It must've been great having two parents who could play well and a nice open-minded atmosphere to discover lots of different musical styles in. I also played the piano about that age, but didn't get any real formal training, although my mother did try to teach me to read music when I was 5 (I was more interested in making up melodies to really take it in!). Having had the chance to learn the harp is awesome, that's one beautiful instrument and quite hard to play if I remember right? It's one of those sounds you just can't synthesize satisfactorily, I've never heard a harp, piano or cello patch that I didn't want to mic differently! Or make sound less perfect Have you ever used harp in a track you've recorded?

It's interesting you picked up drums like that in your late teens, I also had the same kind of "click" moment about that age with songwriting and like yourself haven't stopped since, although I have had several-year-long gaps where I wasted time with other things and didn't do as much work as I'd wanted. Being able to play the whole backline, some lead instruments and some ambient / stringed instruments too is a *really* useful thing! It must've helped a *lot* to have an understanding of music practically from your playing and theoretically from your family, and well done with the college grades and playing in so many bands (and types of bands)! I bet you got used to having no spare time! Or love music so much that *was* what you wanted to use it for! I understand that totally, but I am quite lazy as I'm getting older and often can't be bothered to do much except for hop around the net once I'm done working on a track for a day. I'm not sure what the equivalent of 100 and 200-level would be over here in the UK, but it sounds like you know your stuff well and I wish I had your knowledge! Classical music theory is very, *very* relevant to just about any genre since isn't it, and I'm impressed your dad can play classical guitar - man, that requires some serious dexterity around the instrument! And possibly having a harp, guitars, drums, trombone, and a real bass around the house whilst growing up... let's say I'm healthily jealous! That sounds *fun*!

My family was pretty musical too in their way, in particular my dad. He could've been a professional trad jazz clarinet player but decided to follow a more practical career for some reason I never understood! He was very good but nutty about just jazz, and although he didn't mind some other genres he was a bit biased against them. I met a few very talented players hanging around with him which really inspired me to learn to play myself. My mum loved classical too, so like you there was always something playing on the hi-fi, although in my house it was usually Mozart or Bach, but I do enjoy Ravel (and Wagner in particular) myself. One of my family also learned piano to concert level as it happens! Although I never picked up any of the theoretical skill from them. It's brilliant that you got out and played in so many groups and I'm totally with you about learning from other who are better, there's *nothing* to beat that IMO, and I only wish I'd had more chance to spend real time with more talented players! It must've been great to have such a good perc mentor! You do seem to have a great ability to make your drumming varied and interesting and you have great timing too, I'm very impressed and certainly wouldn't hesitate to call you in on a project if you were a session player I knew, your playing seems to fit in effortlessly in the tracks you posted links to. I think it's a very hard thing for a drummer to keep 'behind' a track and not do anything too complex or intricate that draws attention away from the other elements, and even harder to play an interesting part that fits in perfectly, and isn't unexciting - you seem to do that very well! I wish I was as good myself! I know mainly what to play that works, but I'm not that good at separating my hat hand and foot from the rest of my playing yet, I can't play anything overly complex and haven't practiced enough to get my timing that accurate - it's normally several takes before I get what I'm after, and even then it's usually in sections and a compromise!

Much of what I did in college was improvised music, the kind that would switch between jazz to reggae to thrash in one song...Knitting Factory inspired stuff.

Excellent! I'd like to have heard that. Music is definitely a wide palette and I think you can find evidence of most colours in the perfect painting.

I just like it all. I honestly don't think there is a style of music I don't like. There are some I prefer not to listen to, , but there is something you can learn and appreciate from it all.

That's *great* to hear - I feel exactly the same way myself, and I only wish more people did. Most I've met are very narrow minded about styles, and only really tolerate one or two that they feel they connect with, it's a great shame. I don't think there's ever been a piece of music I've heard that hasn't taught me *something*, and all the great writers and players are a product of their exposure to all the previous musicians before them, that's what makes it all so special, now in history more than ever I think, with so much music around and so easily accessible. I love just about everything and usually find myself drawn into one or two particular styles for a few months at a time, I can't imagine not wanting to listen to new things. On the other hand it is wierd working with rock-orientated guys and saying "I like folk!" and meeting classical players and saying "I love Trent Reznor!"... doesn't always go down well, lol!

Yeah, I really like pad-type keyboard layers y'know?

Definitely! Layers can be so powerful especially when paired well, and I love that whole ethereal feel you get when using other instruments to play similar types of sounds - I've never done that with guitars as clearly as you have though, and I really like the sound! Reminds me of many things (as music often does!) yet it seems quite unique to you too, I'd definitely make good use of that in what you do. I never tried a "fretless" fretted bass, but that sounds like a great idea and I bet you guys had some real fun with it! Delay is *so* powerful an effect, much more so than reverb, and especially with a good player who controls their effects well - I wish I was as adept at harmonics and pot swells as you! Guess practice makes perfect eh

Right, I've really grown to dislike eq and I don't use it unless I have to,...

I was gonna write... *really*?? And then I read;

and if I have to I assume its because I didn't setup the mic and source right.

Now that's *definitely* true in my book! I read an excellent article years ago that basically said "get the sound right at *source*" and I've never looked back from that idea since, it's true on *so* many levels! I'm really glad you're of that school of thinking and whenever I mic something I'm always looking for that rounded, proportioned sound that fits in appropriately with where the instrument has to sit. This is what's brought me to doing the whole "wet-to-tape" bouncing thing even with digital, I can't imagine close-miking everything and trying to work out what needs room-tone and what goes where later... scares the hell out of me! Almost as bad as driving a car with no brakes and your eyes closed, sooner or later that one's *bound* to backfire on me - and it used to!

When I think of eq now I think of it more as a feedback management tool in FOH applications.

I'm not actually that extreme yet (or maybe I just haven't done enough live engineering!), but I do understand where you're coming from. These days I'm not afraid of the EQ, I used to reach for it *all* the time to begin with, before I knew where to place a mic. Then I went through a "use it for clarity only" kinda stage which didn't work out so well, but was definitely better! These days I find myself using anything from a couple of subtle +/-3dB touches to add some air and get the weight right, all the way to multiple passes for massive -40dB cuts to really carve / hollow out a sound and bring out the character I'm looking for. I guess it's use what you need to get what you need. I can feel the looks of shock-horror from other engineers' faces as I write this, lol! But I've found it really works for me. Like you I think the right kind of air / sparkle is important, but I generally do that "to tape" instead of later on (which perhaps won't work so well with *actual* tape, I'm guessing the top-end could be a lot smoother coming back, but it would help with the noise levels a bit), I also do the mud-removal thing (man, how muddy can my vocal *be*, even *with* the optimum mic setup!! ), but I primarily use it for "harshness-removal" which usually seems to make a *massive* difference.

I think part of the reason for such extreme EQ is due to the spaces I work with, I often have to track a vocal in a nastily reflecting room, or get an "ambient" drum sound from a dry, snappy area, so there's usually a lot to smooth out, and it's definitely a very fine process when I find the right ballpark of cut or boost. FWIW, I hardly *ever* boost - to paraphrase what you said, if I have to add something using EQ, I haven't set up the mic or source right! It makes so much sense that way. Your mixes (even the rough testing ones!) do sound very clear and with a great balance of room to source, and no real harshness that I could pick out on my PC's speakers (haven't had the chance to listen on my monitors yet), so you must be doing good! Love the ambient pads on Crimson Road by the way, that's a great mood setter, and nice having the vocal become fuller before the verse, good idea. I have to say I'd probably have wanted to make the main vocal a bit wider / rounder with double tracking and the ever-useful delay, but in general a quality mix there, nicely balanced and some great little harmonies and accenting - if that's your work with the harmonics / arpeggios and heavier guitar (not to mention drums) I think musically you *made* that tune! Not bad vocals at all, but without the interest around them I don't think it could've sounded as good as it did. Great stuff!

And no the bass was direct to the intrument preamp on the 01X. It was quick and dirty remember? No time to setup an amp and mic or even a compressor.

I did remember, but even so that is quite surprising, that's a lovely rounded bass sound on there! It's not like the preamp was doing any compression either, so just lovely tape squashing going on - beautiful! If that test was mine I'd definitely be tempted to build a composition using it - that's a nice sound and some unorthodox progressions suggest themselves... please don't ask me which ones though.. (Dave hunts frantically for that "Music Theory for Dummies" book he stashed away somewhere... )

I have yet in my life to have a space where that stuff can be setup and left setup. That's coming and that will be exciting, but I've learned a lot by having to pinch and make do.

I'm sorry to hear that man, that's a bit of a tragedy, but I'm glad you're getting there now and it may well have helped define something in your method that's unique - sometimes a lack of paint makes for a more considered and beautiful painting! I bet it's gonna be a *good* day when you've finished with the white noise testing and finally able to get to work in your own space!

You can use the search function in the forum to search for threads authored by me with the word "story" in the title I think.

Excellent! I'm looking forward to finding out what else you've discovered - that's a pretty cool list you got going there...

Thanks very much for filling me in on the workings of tape transports - I do seem to miss the obvious a lot - but I understand how different systems affect the tension much better now. I guess those settings on your MM-1000 are very critical! You don't want one of the resistors to go open-circuit in the middle of a fast wind or anything! I can see the reason for describing the "static" tensioning system as crude and dirty, but I guess it can't have made such a massive difference if great records were made without anybody manually compensating for response changes all the time, or punters complaining about how quiet / muffled the record gets towards the end! I do love the tension control on both my MS-16 and 32-2B, it looks like it handles the tape so carefully! I haven't had a chance to check that video out yet but I'll head over and download it now, it's always interesting seeing a deck chase and lock! And it is incredible how sophisticated microprocessor transports became. Scares my a bit to think it could all go wrong, thank goodness the software is more solid than your typical PC OS! I often remember Umatic/VHS/DAT when I think about this, how reliable all those systems seemed until they went wrong and swallowed tapes. And yet nobody thought twice about going from fastwind to play, to pause, to forward cue... I would've had a heart attack trying to manually control all the transport variables in that process! All the technique and knowledge that went into those domestic systems all came from pro recorders and open-reel transports, they really are a beautiful design.

Nada...not a chip anywhere on the whole thing.

Ahhh, lovely - you must sleep better at nights than I do!

once the offending parts were replaced and clean power rails were ensured its back up. Now THAT'S saying something.

Most definitely! Maybe I'll kip tonight after all The MS-16 does seem to have a great rep as a solid piece of design, and the weight of the thing does bear that out! I'm very grateful to have your feedback on the reliability of that era of Tascam machines, it's definitely good to know I can concentrate more on general maintenance and not be concerned about any "achilles heels" as you said.

We have a nice community here, and the mods don't seem to mind things drifting off topic. Trolling is another issue but it really doesn't happen much. I think the discussion is good.

It does seem very open and of all the forums I've hit searching for info this does seem to have much nicer people and less white noise! Some of the discussions seem excellent and are almost always entertaining at least! I'm very honoured to become a part of it and to have the chance to chat with people who would normally be waaaay too busy to actually make contact with me! Have you made any real friends through HomeRecording BTW? *Good* friends are very rare, but everyone here does seem to have a lot in common, it's a good atmosphere.

PLEASE keep up your postings on your MS16.

No worries there, I definitely will! It's a real privilege to be able to post about this stuff, and although work does often pull me away for weeks on end I have no intention of *not* keeping up my inane ramblings on all things analogue and musical! I didn't realise the board was low on MS-16 users... looks like I got here just in time

Having said that I *do* like the look of the MX70 a *lot*! But I don't think I could ever afford one. If I could I'd probably go for a 2" Otari or Studer instead - but on that day I'll probably be *way* too busy buying drinks for everyone who's helped me along, you guys definitely included!

get to know the MS16 first and what it can do for you.

Absolutely! Don't worry, I might come across as fickle due to my fascination with quality kit, but believe me I'm as loyal as the day is long when I find a good workhorse. Damn, I'd still have my first ever mic in use somewhere if it hadn't given up on me! But I don't think I'll be giving up my MS-16 for a good long time. There's still so much to learn and to work with!

the heads on the MS16 are more efficient and sophisticated, so there is some unfairness in comparing apples-to-apples as far as the format. The track width on your MS-16 is just slightly less than a 2" 24-track. Did you know that?[/QUOTED]
I didn't actually, it seems daft looking back but I hadn't really researched the track spacing of the different 1" and 2" machines I'd used / looked at, I just knew I didn't want to go any smaller than 1", any less than 16 tracks and I couldn't afford a 2". That's *great* news though, and I'm sure if I ever progress to a point where I'm using everything in the MS-16's format in the most constructive way possible I'll probably never need to upgrade! What you say about the heads sounds true, and I do feel lucky to have the ones I do on this machine. I'm dreading having to find replacements though when these start to roll off finally! I haven't asked JRF for a quote yet, I think I should get a full health-check before I do...

there is a dynamic responsiveness and "guts" that I think comes from overbuilt discrete amplifier electronics and massive headroom

That is a *very* reassuring thing for sure! Anything overengineered normally lasts and works *very* well, I definitely think you have a great machine there and can't wait to hear your output when you've finally got it in full use!

There's a switch over on the left of the control surface of the transport that changes the I/O for track 16 to the sync I/O jacks on the back. Convenience. No repatching to be done if you want to stripe timecode on track 16 and chase-lock the machine or hook it up to an autolocator.

Ahhh, yes, I hadn't noticed that! I had a look through the manual (now I have one! ) and that's a pretty handy feature! The "SMPTE Connector" mentioned in the manual is actually marked as the "Accessory" connector on the MS-16 itself, which I didn't pay much attention to. I do love this machine! The more I read about its electronics the more I realise how solid and versatile it's been designed to be.

As to the acoustics of your space, I can completely empathise about not knowing exactly what you'll actually do! I know a time-served acoustical designer will know instinctively what will work and what won't but it's a real challenge for people like myself who only have theory, ears and a bit of tracking to go on! What you plan sounds good, and I think it'll probably work out quite well when you've got all your stuff there deadening things up. Reflections / vibrations from the kit could be a problem! But I'm sure it'll work out well. I've never had a properly designed control room to work in personally, although I've heard other engineers in theirs, and even then there's a process of learning the room to go through so it's all relative. I know my current control room has problems around 100 and 200Hz-ish which is common, but I'm so used to it I have a feel for when it's "right", and checking the sound on headphones I know well (and other systems at the end of the day) seems to work out okay for me.

Mostly I'm just going to want to PLAY!

Amen to THAT! It's like losing a limb isn't it, not being able to practice. It's *not* good! I'm really looking forward to reading the posts after you get that going - I bet you're going to be walking on air for a good few years afterwards!

I didn't realise you had a fairly small space and such a big family - homeschooling too huh? That's gotta be difficult. I'm lucky in a way that I don't have children of my own yet, even working my stuff around my girlfriend's undemanding living requirements can be difficult! And it's always tough not having a budget either. Like you guys we're not rich, but I have spent a lot of time scouring eBay and buying kit from good sources so I reckon I've got everything I need for what a "proper" studio would pay for their kitchen! It's amazing what you can do with limited resources, and I'm *really* pleased it's working out for you, it sounds like you must've worked damned hard to get where you are, and someone who puts their family first is always a person I respect. I think you're doing great work! And although it does seem a shame to confine your music to hobby status I feel sure you'll do impressive things with your new room. All your patience should pay off there!

Cheers for the examples you posted by the way, it was great to have the chance to hear them. I really like your ideas and I think the execution of them is very good, a couple of timing errors in the first tune (you should *hear* the bad timing on my "one-take improvised tests" - so I *definitely* mean a major complement here! ) but a good sound and some *nice* ambient-type riffs and drums going on. Man, I *wish* I could drum that well! That's a nice roomy drum sound you have in the first track, with the modern-jazzy bass and delayed guitar harmonics in the mid section it almost reminds me of some of Squarepushers' work in some places! That same kind of beautifully trippy yet solid and complex soundscape (and intuitive engineering). I'd definitely be interested to hear what would happen if you were to revisit that track with more time and resources, and an album of ambient tunes in a similar vein would be something I'd buy. I think musically you're a *long* way ahead of me, I'd be very interested to see what would happen if I was to record you! But I think perhaps for any little tricks I know I'd have trouble matching the nice open sound you've got there - great work! You seem almost like a guy waiting for a couple of similarly talented local guys to happen along to work with - I'm sure given the time to focus on what you do well (that appears to be a *lot*! ) with others adding their takes you could create something as astounding as anything I've heard and revere.

I'm in total agreement about the use of less (or less expensive!) mics, pres and instruments; I'm sure for all their technological magic the big equipment manufacturers know they're only adding the last 5% of polish with hugely expensive and specialist kit. The best drum sound I've yet got was with just a pair of overheads and a D112, and a *decent* reverb patch - I'd spent ages running tons of mics around kits before that! Sometimes simplest is most powerful. I have to say I do have a penchant for the valve sound (I *love* what it can do to dynamics, or lack of them, sometimes) and I have a huge regard for good pres that handle transients not just well but smoothly... but I know in my heart that a good engineer really can make a great record by listening for the right tone and space down the mic, and for all my love of processing I'll *never* rule out using the cheapest piece of kit for any track - I know it could sound better than anything else for that purpose.

 

[retrodave]

Nice work! (2/2)

Made me realize I've been fretting WAYYYY too much about what kind of mics and preamps I'm using. Again, its unmastered so the volume level is quiet...kick drum is woofy...there are some things left desired for me but it was fun, sounded better than I thought and I like it...

Too true! As it happens I like it myself, and it really is all about the playing and hardly at all about the equipment! The kick didn't sound too bad to me (I will check my monitors but it didn't jump out at me), I know if I was mixing this I would've found myself EQing some mid from the bass and hollowing out the kick to create a nice controlled low-frequency thud and midrange tap (that's when I would've broken out the compression too... ) - but, ya know, that's a *great* sound and I honestly am amazed you didn't use any EQ at all - good work! Mastering would've meant compression anyhow and would've brought up all the lovely low-level detail so I honestly would've felt very pleased with that if I'd mixed it. And seriously, 3 hours? Man, it takes me 3 hours to find the right drum sound sometimes! Perhaps I shouldn't have admitted that...

I *still* haven't had time to rotate the guides on my MS-16, so as you can imagine I'm itching to get on with that! I'm hoping maybe tomorrow afternoon I can make a start, if not it'll be next week sometime, but I will post as soon as I have the good (or bad!) news about the calibration (I'm searching for a good demagger too before I give it a try). I'm gonna have less time online next week especially as I'm still scanning this massive manual! But I will check in when I can - as I say hopefully there'll be some good news. I really *can't* wait to start running 1" sessions, this machine was build to *work*! Seems so unfair to keep her waiting...

Cheers for everything Sweetbeats! Speak with you real soon

 

[sweetbeats]

THAT had to be the longest post ever...

I've been using all my spare time the last couple of days to scan the MS-16 manual in, it's a *lot* of work! I'm doing well though, I've got about 10% of the way through and managed to convert it all to proper text with the diagrams as images for a PDF

Oh MAN its too bad we're on opposite sides of the pond...I've scanned in dozens of manuals and at least a dozen of them were gihugic volumes, like well over 300 pages each, many of them large 11" x 17" sheets. I have access to a high speed high quality 11" x 17" scanner that scans straight to pdf...I always handle each page one at a time rather than feed through the document feeder for safety, but I can get over 300 pages scanned in less than 90 minutes. Dang...but you're right, its a good idea as a backup as well as for portability. I have access to my manual library wherever I am.

Have you ever used harp in a track you've recorded?

Naw...Haven't had access to a harp in nearly 3 decades, and at that don't really remember how to play...I DO remember the calouses though...MAN my fingers used to hurt.

I bet you got used to having no spare time! Or love music so much that *was* what you wanted to use it for!

Yeah...that's it for sure.

having a harp, guitars, drums, trombone, and a real bass around the house whilst growing up...

My dad had the trombone and guitar in the house while I was growing up but he didn't start playing upright until the last few years. The harp was outside the home...funny thing is I tried piano, that didn't work out at 4~5 years with my mom as my teacher...neither of us had much patience. Then I took lessons from a couple other teachers but that fizzled. I really had no interest in playing an instrument until that day at age 17 over at a friend's house after school doing homework and we were listening to Led Zeppelin's Physical Graffiti and I was beating my hands on the boombox and *click* that was it...I only played harp because my mom wanted me to be playing some kind of instrument and I just pulled that out of the air because they sound so hauntingly beautiful...my mom used to take me to the symphony every now and then and I always noticed the harp. So all that influence around and I just had little interest. My brother and I used to make up songs when I was around 9 or 10...pop influenced...he'd play kit and I'd play on his MiniMoog...but it didn't really all hit me until 17.

You do seem to have a great ability to make your drumming varied and interesting and you have great timing too...I can't play anything overly complex and haven't practiced enough to get my timing that accurate - it's normally several takes before I get what I'm after, and even then it's usually in sections and a compromise!

Thanks for the kind words...hm...I've been playing for almost a quarter century now so that ought to be worth something in terms of ability right?? But its just been a lot of playing and watching others and practice-practice-practice. I actually haven't practiced regularly since college...just haven't had the place. I think about drumming a lot though, and there's usually something being composed in my head, like one mental channel is always cranking out music like a Play-Doh pumper, so every 5~6 weeks or so when I DO sit down at the kit there is something new that comes out. I do feel the rusty scale and even playing at church I tend to be riding an edge where I'm just about to completely loose it and tumble into a train wreck. I think I've developed a good skill for covering my flubs...but the ideas are there. Practiced a lot with a metronome and I'm sure that's had a lot to do with being able to keep pretty good time and pulse. Being in a reggae band for 3 years really helped me to appreciate nuances in pulse as well as simplicity. Two of my biggest influences are Stewart Copeland and Vinnie Colaiuta. Bottom line: I just really like playing.

Definitely! Layers can be so powerful especially when paired well, and I love that whole ethereal feel you get when using other instruments to play similar types of sounds - I've never done that with guitars as clearly as you have though, and I really like the sound! Reminds me of many things (as music often does!) yet it seems quite unique to you too, I'd definitely make good use of that in what you do. I never tried a "fretless" fretted bass, but that sounds like a great idea and I bet you guys had some real fun with it! Delay is *so* powerful an effect, much more so than reverb, and especially with a good player who controls their effects well - I wish I was as adept at harmonics and pot swells as you! Guess practice makes perfect eh

That first bass was such a sad, sad instrument...somebody had just ripped the frets out with pliers and hadn't filled the slots or anything...and the nut was built up with toothpicks, and actually the nut didn't NEED to be built up because the frets were gone...IIRC that's where I learned how to setup a bass...and the delay was great but it was when I got an Alesis Quadraverb and there is a reverb effect on there that much more closely matched the results I wanted.

Here's another scratch song...I honestly don't think I have ANY songs that aren't scratch...always off-the-cuff ideas tracked as a part of some other test or experiment to which I layer some other stuff for my own entertainment, and the mixes never get finished...never time, never a way to have the gear stay setup. This one has a *horrible* mix...nothing but headphones to monitor the whole time...I don't think I even OWNED monitor speakers at the time. This was from about 7 years ago and started as a simple test to see if I could get drum sounds with which I was happy using two mics only. This was with an AKG D112 on the kick and a Shure SM94 for everything else. All the other instrument tracks are electric bass. All tracking was direct to computer using nothing but a Tascam US-122. I had just discovered compression (in the box) and it shows...terrible, but this has an ambient bass part using reverb during the second half of the piece.

Have you made any real friends through HomeRecording BTW? *Good* friends are very rare, but everyone here does seem to have a lot in common, it's a good atmosphere.

I feel like I've made quite a lot of friends actually, if you guage it by level of trust yeah definitely, and one in particular that I figure will more than likely be somebody I'm in contact with the remainder of my life...he's been a real great sounding board as we have a lot in common, so that's been a great and maybe rare outcome of being involved in an internet forum community. I know it can be a seed bed for people getting nasty with each other but it hasn't really been that way here. In generak we all seem to enjoy talking and thinking about analog gear so it doesn't really seem to matter if it is a simple cassette deck or some rare "big iron" transport. Its all fun, its all analog.

You seem almost like a guy waiting for a couple of similarly talented local guys to happen along to work with...

I'm actually hoping to spend more time with a very good friend of mine who is very gifted...bass, guitar, vocals, lyrics, drums...We'd both love to create high quality meaningful music with focus...We're both so busy too but if there was a place to track efficiently and with quality gear...we don't really talk about it but I think we are both looking forward to the new room here. Here is a track I captured a couple years ago...he came up for a visit and after a few hours wanted to share some new stuff he was working on and after hearing just a few minutes I told him I had to capture it so we went out to the shop...I had a plastic room out there to keep the dust off stuff I was working on. Just him and his guitar and two Studio Projects B3 mics in M+S configuration about 4' back...I added some reverb and multiband compression in Cubase...15 minutes to setup the recording for 15 minutes of (for me) soul filling food. Sometimes you can hear the moths buzzing against the plastic trying to get into the light we had inside. I'm often like the moths, flapping against the plastic even though there's an easy way 'round which is kind of ironic because moths seem to like me... I've had them on many more than one occcasion come and land on me and they'll sit and rest for long periods of time sometimes...they like my Adam's apple. Anyway...

3 hours? Man, it takes me 3 hours to find the right drum sound sometimes!

Hey, seriously, its not to my credit. I create nothing, and that drum sound was just luck. Kudos to you if you can take any amount of time and arrive at something you like. I've go an incurable "hammer-mechanic" element that doesn't lend itself to a discriminating process. I have a knack for going the wrong direction when I put too much attention to something and so often I just bang it out, and typically that's all the time I can afford anyway...sometimes it works I guess, but there is a limit to just how effective you can be with that approach AFAIC.

You have any clips accessible via the web?

Anxious to hear about progress on the MS16 when you can get to it.

 

[retrodave]

Wow!

Hey Sweetbeats,

Thanks for your post! It was great to hear from you. Sorry it's taken me a few days to get back to you, I haven't had much spare time this week and what time I have had has been taken up scanning in the manual. The good news is that I've finally *finished* it! I haven't checked through it as fully as I should yet, but it's looking pretty good to me - I'll PM you a link if you'd to take a look

THAT had to be the longest post ever...

Yeah, sorry about that! I really should learn to edit a little, that likely goes for my music as well as my posts!

That's really kind of you to offer to scan the manuals - it *is* a shame there's a fair bit of water between here and there! Oh well. The MS-16 manual runs to 225-odd pages, so I totally appreciate your efforts with the other tomes! Your scanner sounds excellent, I'd be interested to know how accurate its OCR is, and like you I'd probably not trust the sheet feeder! Luckily for me this manual's pages are all A4, or A4 foldouts at most, so it wasn't too bad to do. Took me a bit more than your 90 minutes though! But hopefully it'll be worth it, and at least I know if someone gets some use from this scan the data and figures in it are most likely correct - I checked all the dang things myself! Great idea having access to your manuals anywhere - I should do that. I find most manuals aren't needed until the kit breaks - man, I love schematics!

So it's been a while since you played harp? I bet it would all come back to you quickly though, and the calouses too! Was it much worse than the guitar?? I know I still regret it when I don't play for a few weeks, it's always a good few days before my fingers toughen up again. Don't know how I'd get on with the harp!

Having a trombone, guitar, piano and your bro's kit around when growing up sounds cool, and a Minimoog? WOW! That's a major little synth to have access to at that age! I'd have loved that, I bet you guys got some awesome sounds out of it. Making up pop-type tunes is really useful for learning structure, that must've been fun at least! Especially in that kind of musical environment. I know what you mean about not clicking at all with lessons, I was similar myself, and saw a lot of my schoolmates shared the view. As soon as a couple of guys at school picked up a bass and guitar and started running off tunes the others knew (badly!) they were *all* interested - but the theory just didn't appeal to them or me at the time. I wanted to *play*, and badly was fine (it still is sadly! ). My parents always liked seeing me enjoying music, but weren't pushy as such, so maybe that's why I loved playing so much and perhaps explains why you didn't until you connected your ability with music you were really feeling (amazing Zep track by the way! ). I'm glad you did though, I'm really enjoying listening to what you've managed to track up.

I've been playing for almost a quarter century now so that ought to be worth something in terms of ability right??

Lol! Definitely, but at the same time I think an untalented player could probably manage the whole century without learning accuracy or any interesting ideas! I'm sad to say I've been playing keyboard now for almost that long myself, but I'm not sure how close I'm getting to your level of ability! I'm nowhere near in terms of guitar or drums, but I console myself with the fact that that's only been 7 years or so (and not a great deal of practising done in that time) - maybe there's hope for me yet.

I think about drumming a lot though, and there's usually something being composed in my head, like one mental channel is always cranking out music like a Play-Doh pumper

I think I understand, I had a job as a cashier for a while and always found myself tapping along to the background music (my drumming improved a fair bit at that time!), and I've always got some idea knocking around at the back of my mind that I can't wait to try out. It sounds like your ideas are pretty concrete though which is excellent, mine tend to be a bit weak and skeletal, and I have to make a concious effort *not* to keep repeating the same patterns and uninteresting structures / melodies so I come up with something I might actually *want* to write down!! I think sometimes incubating an idea is what *makes* it what it is - I do have immense respect (and some suspicion!) for those pro songwriters who seem to be able to write an incredible track every couple of days! Any type of creativity is definitely a gift, and I'm glad you're using yours even though you haven't had much opportunity - so far.

I tend to be riding an edge where I'm just about to completely loose it and tumble into a train wreck.

I'm so glad you said that! Now there's an emotion I *can* claim a connection with! Especially when jamming with people, it's so embarassing when I lose the timing of something and stumble around for a few seconds whilst I work out what I *should* have been playing! Everyone does it sometimes I know, but it still sounds *bad*! My dad always said "It's not playing without mistakes that counts, it's being able to recover from them without anyone really noticing that's clever!". I guess he was right - but being able to ride that edge and *not* crashing and burning is the real mark of a good musician.

Practiced a lot with a metronome and I'm sure that's had a lot to do with being able to keep pretty good time and pulse.

For sure, that's a great idea too. You definitely do seem to have a tight lock to what's going on, that's especially evident in the track you did for the female singer. I have a *good* sense of timing, but it's not as clear to me when I'm playing to a click or backing track as when I'm listening outside the situation somehow, I always find myself disappointed with the way my playing drifts a little when I honestly thought it was a great take... I'm planning on spending a little more time with a click-track myself! I can definitely appreciate what you say about nuances and simplicity, especially in reggae (and man, what incredible influences!!), I always thought of the reggae thing as a more fluid extension of jazz timing, and simplicity in anything musical is almost *always* more powerful. I think the real prize is in the balance between clarity of concept and those often complex-nuances that appear within it, to me that seems the mark of music that's really come of age.

Sorry to hear about your first bass - I thought perhaps you guys had lovingly removed the frets of a battered bass as an experiment! What you say does sound sad though, I have a friend who almost has to be held back when he encounters someone who's abused a guitar! It's a real shame when people don't look after something that can be so beautiful. I was *given* the electric I currently use, it's been run into the ground a bit but it's a good instrument and I love it! I wish the string spacing was greater sometimes! But I think that's just me, "piano fingers" don't work so well on the axe!

Ah, the Quadraverb - a classic little bit of kit! My first reverb was a Digitech unit designed for guitars, it sounded fabulous actually! A bit extreme as effects go, but very smooth, with some really deep reverbs and choruses. I have a keyboard with a Quadraverb-type processor inside it, it still sounds great. I've got to admit I'm a big fan of the real classic effects, the Echorec, Space Echo, almost anything by MXR... I don't own any myself but some of the available emulations are excellent, and the originals always add something special to a performance. It's all about the imperfection; and hiss is *gooood*...

Thank you *so* much for the download links - I've been waiting all week to speak with you about those. I've got to say that track your friend played and sang on is *amazing*, it's one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard and I felt very emotional listening to it. It's had a good few plays since then! Definitely a very talented guy, and I love his playing, he's easily as compentent a guitarist as some of the best I've heard, and a whole lot better than a lot of them! Well done to you for the recording too, it's expertly done and perfectly complements the music I think, lovely gentle reverb and the multiband comp really smoothes out the sound, and I love the width and the warmth of the soundfield. A *huge* amount of clarity too, I can hear each string beautifully, I know I couldn't do better! I've never used the MS setup much myself, but I think I will after hearing that. You guys *MUST* do some more work together, seriously, between you I feel you'll put down some real treasure onto that 2" tape you've got. If I had half the talent either of you have I know I'd be quitting my day job as soon as it was humanly possible! Please keep the forum in the loop with this one, I've gotta hear what you do once your space is up and running. And thank you so much for giving me the chance to listen to that track - all your efforts in fact! - it's a genuine and rare privilege.

after hearing just a few minutes I told him I had to capture it so we went out to the shop...

You ain't kidding! I know I'd have been diving for the mics myself!

I've never used any Studio Projects mics, but they do sound excellent on that track. I *love* Neumann mics (again, not that I'll ever own any! Lol!), but for my buck the best mic I've found is the Rode K2, it's surprisingly smooth when compared to other well-loved mics, not as much "sharp" clarity as a C-1000 maybe but very clear nontheless, and multi-pattern. It'd be interesting to hear it against the B3, there's probably not much between them either way.

The "Lion's Den" track you posted a link to is also very good, I really enjoyed it! Apart from the odd timing error the drums sound great and again very tight, and I really love what you do with the ambient guitars! That's definitely a great sound that's largely unique to you, it's beautifully ethereal. I'm always waiting for the rest of the tune to start when I hear your scratch ideas, there's so much potential there, and man your drums are always spot-on! I honestly can't wait to hear what happens when you and your friend get together. Makes me wish you lived *this* side of the pond and you needed a mix engineer! Nothing wrong at all with your mic'ing technique there, I love the D112, it's an unbeatable kick mic, and although I've never used the SM94 it's got a fine response for that kind of application. It's a great demonstration on how "get it right at source" really *is* the answer! And your drumkit must sound pretty damn good in person, that's a good, clear drum sound! I hear what you're saying about compression (I've been there myself, and probably am still making all the mistakes in the book! ) but even so you did get some nice low-level detail coming through there as the compressor opens again, especially with your playing I would've thought you'd have liked that effect? Consider the classic "slam the 1176 with the kit buss" sound - compression at its most extreme, but it is a valid sound, and somewhere in between is a lovely level of detail without losing much of your original dynamics. Heavily compressing the kit and bringing it back on a separate channel pair on the desk is a useful technique, that can help find a balance that's appropriate. It's incredible to me that you didn't have any monitors - my "mixes" from headphone days sound *much* worse than you could probably imagine! In any case I like the track a lot, another idea that's worth revisiting in your new studio space surely.

I'm often like the moths, flapping against the plastic even though there's an easy way 'round which is kind of ironic because moths seem to like me...

Rofl! Yep, I've seen my fair share of illuminated walls too More than yourself probably! Especially in terms of songwriting, it all sounds so *easy* to backwards-engineer - but when it comes to building an idea with a similar template... well, let's just say it's lucky moths don't have long noses. I think I'd have found myself impaled in the plastic permanently! FWIW, I like moths, got some gorgeous ones here in the UK - but I bet you have some real beauties in the US!

I honestly don't think I have ANY songs that aren't scratch...

Hopefully that will soon change for you, I know I hate leaving an idea unfinished. I'm pretty hard-nosed (back to the moths again!) when it comes to completing a project, I know now if I don't pull my finger out it'll never join the pile of tracks I'm "happy" with. I dread not having the time to do that in the future!

I feel like I've made quite a lot of friends actually, if you guage it by level of trust yeah definitely, and one in particular that I figure will more than likely be somebody I'm in contact with the remainder of my life...

That's great! I'm really glad to hear you've found a bit of a kindred spirit there, true friends are hard to come by and the average person only ever has about 5 in the course of a lifetime apparently - I'm already almost halfway through my quota! Trust is definitely a good benchmark, the older I get the more I understand that. I find it harder to discover people who have a similar goal and outlook personally, it's always great to meet someone on the same wavelength as you and I'm really glad the forum's helped there. There does seem to be an absence of nastiness on this board - heck, that's rare too! I think it takes a lot of wisdom (and some patience!) not to resort to that, but it really is the only way to appreciate happiness. I really love what I've seen of this forum so far, some top people too - great stuff!

About the 3-hour mix...

Hey, seriously, its not to my credit. I create nothing, and that drum sound was just luck.

Well, I can see your point, but there's always a degree of luck involved with a good sound - probably more than most engineers would like to admit! And you sound like you know what you want to hear, so all credit to you I think. We seem different on the "hammer-mechanic" thing, I'm sadly more of an "obssesive-tweaker" in terms of process! I can quite happily sit with a track and get a ballpark sound to it, run the track, improve it, run the track again, adjust the lower-mid, run it again, adjust the ambience, run again, compensate for the change in lower-mid due to the change in ambience... honestly, I don't think my approach is much better! Lol I do know roughly what sound I'm after and normally get there, or find something just as good, but how good the overall quality of my work is I don't know. I read a quote once from a *proper* pro engineer which went something like "I've *never* heard a mix that took more than a day that was any good!", and I think there's a degree of truth in that, depending on your ability. Some of the best songs ever written were written in the shortest time, so I wouldn't knock your technique. Maybe having had little spare time again works in your favour there!

You have any clips accessible via the web?

Not online *as such*, but there is some stuff I can PM you some links to, I'd be very interested to get your feedback and I'm sure you could point me in the right directions for improving my work. It's a bit humble in many ways compared to yours, at the same time a bit OTT too! I don't yet make much of my stuff public, not because it's necessarily any good or a valuable product, mainly because I'm not really happy with much of it and don't know where it belongs! But I'm finding more of a "groove" at the moment (technically speaking sadly, not musically! ) and I'm just adding the finishing touches to a track I've been working on for a few weeks, so far it doesn't sound so bad to me, so perhaps I can send you a link to the mix once it's completed? As I say I'd love to know what you think. I'll happily send you links to some other bits'n'bobs after that, but I'd prefer you to see the better side of it first before descending into some of my previous disasters! I should be done with this track in a week or two, so I'll PM you once it's up and available.

Anxious to hear about progress on the MS16 when you can get to it.

Yes! Sorry, I'm really drifting off-topic here aren't I! Well, I haven't made much progress so far, although since completing the manual scan I've managed to get a couple of hours' work in. At the moment I'm really stuck for a demagger (the guy I bought this from "warned" me it hadn't been demagged for a "while"!), I missed a Teac E3 a while ago which I'm gutted about, and don't really want to run my (possibly gluey and baked) cal tape over a highly magnetized transport! I'm avoiding the cheap cassette and wand types I'm finding on eBay, and ones from the US as I don't have a step-down transformer here, and I can't afford a HanDMag - so I'm anxiously waiting for a good demagger to turn up in some of the local listings!

I have however managed to rotate the guides (finally!), and discovered most of them hadn't been turned before (and showed fairly little wear), EXCEPT for the final guide before the pinch roller, which had a nasty trapezoidal wear pattern on the rear! So your theory about the heads having been relapped already looks *very* likely, and they might not have that much life left in them. But in general the wear seems okay, I'm just a bit concerned about why that wear pattern happened there in the first place, and only on that one spot, unless the guide was pinched from a scrap MS-16 which seems unlikely. I haven't yet done the alignment tests to make sure the changes I've made haven't thrown the transport out of whack, but I'll do that before running any tape next. I've turned all the guides carefully so they can be turned again a few times, and I've got some pics here of the results:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.humphreys40/tascam_ms16/guides_all.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.humphreys40/tascam_ms16/guides_angle.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.humphreys40/tascam_ms16/guides_closeup_left.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.humphreys40/tascam_ms16/guides_closeup_right.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.humphreys40/tascam_ms16/lifters_closeup_right.jpg

(I'll include the smaller versions here too).

The only guide I haven't managed to successfully rotate is the right-hand tape lifter. The lifters come off as a single assembly (pin straight into a drilled mounting-block made of a different metal), and I couldn't find any way of disengaging one from the other to rotate the pin, apart from maybe sticking the pin in a vice and getting a wrench on the mounting-block!! Which would spell the permanent end of the lifter I'm sure! What I *did* do was swap the two lifters as the wear was in a different place on each, and they're interchangable parts. Unfortunately, although this worked well for the left lifter, the edge of the wear pattern on the right-hand one is now about 20% into the area of tape contact I reckon, so it's going to be dragging on the tape during every wind! The last picture here is taken from the approximate angle of tape contact, you can see the line of the oxide stain that's fixed itself into the top of the wear pattern. It *feels* pretty smooth to the touch, but I know that might not be enough to stop some nasty friction from building up, and I can't afford to damage my tapes like that. I'm afraid I might have to get the guides re-lathed to get rid of the existing wear, although I don't know much about the process so I don't know if the guide would turn out smooth enough, or if any type of finishing's necessary afterwards to complete the work. For now, I'm tempted to demag and go for a calibration regardless of this, and just stay clear of winds with the lifters out (I think I can defeat them for now) - I'm *desperate* to see if she'll come to spec! It's killing me having this gorgeous machine in my living room, and not knowing what state she's actually in!

The moment I get my hands on a demagger I'll have some more news, and post up the results ASAP - keeping my fingers crossed!

Thanks again for the message Sweetbeats - take care man! All the best.

 

[sweetbeats]

Thank you *so* much for the download links - I've been waiting all week to speak with you about those. I've got to say that track your friend played and sang on is *amazing*, it's one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard and I felt very emotional listening to it. It's had a good few plays since then! Definitely a very talented guy, and I love his playing, he's easily as compentent a guitarist as some of the best I've heard, and a whole lot better than a lot of them!

Yeah, he's really a captivating person. I'm blessed to have him as a friend. Here's another track from that night...He had just recently purchased that guitar. Its a Breedlove. I really feel I had little to do with engineering of any sort...That was how he sounded. His voice has a natural eq'ed quality and the guitar sounded fantastic and I knew I just wanted to capture how he sounded in the room. I wanted nothing else than to have those songs as they sounded that night so I could listen to them, so I knew M+S was the thing because, more or less, that's what it does. I backed up to where the sound was balanced and full and that's where I put the mics. I guess that's a big part of engineering, but it was easy with him which has been the case with anything he does...he can pick up a garden variety bass guitar and it sounds fantastic. He's just blessed and he wants nothing more than the share it. The Studio Projects B3 has done pretty well for me. It was cheap (I paid $159USD each), well-made and multi-patterned (which is why I bought it...so I could do M+S mic'ing on a budget). I had a C1 which I couldn't stand...grainy as all get I'm sad to say. Sold that awhile ago nearly unused, but the B3 doesn't have the brittleness...its flatter. Not boutique but has gotten the job done for me.

The "Lion's Den" track you posted a link to is also very good, I really enjoyed it! Apart from the odd timing error the drums sound great and again very tight, and I really love what you do with the ambient guitars! That's definitely a great sound that's largely unique to you, it's beautifully ethereal. I'm always waiting for the rest of the tune to start when I hear your scratch ideas, there's so much potential there, and man your drums are always spot-on! I honestly can't wait to hear what happens when you and your friend get together. Makes me wish you lived *this* side of the pond and you needed a mix engineer! Nothing wrong at all with your mic'ing technique there, I love the D112, it's an unbeatable kick mic, and although I've never used the SM94 it's got a fine response for that kind of application. It's a great demonstration on how "get it right at source" really *is* the answer! And your drumkit must sound pretty damn good in person, that's a good, clear drum sound! I hear what you're saying about compression (I've been there myself, and probably am still making all the mistakes in the book! ) but even so you did get some nice low-level detail coming through there as the compressor opens again, especially with your playing I would've thought you'd have liked that effect? Consider the classic "slam the 1176 with the kit buss" sound - compression at its most extreme, but it is a valid sound, and somewhere in between is a lovely level of detail without losing much of your original dynamics. Heavily compressing the kit and bringing it back on a separate channel pair on the desk is a useful technique, that can help find a balance that's appropriate.

Just making sure you caught it that there are no guitars per se on that one, but, again, all bass as far as melodic instrumentation.

I'll have to try that with bringing the compressed tracks back in and mixing. I DO like how the compression "slammed" the kit, but what I'm hearing is that the stereo phasing is all whacky and I didn't even understand what "attack" and "release" did back then, much less how to use them. I'm better at that now. Not an expert at all but can hear when the attack rate is sucking too life out, or when the release is overunning the dance of the source material, like a couple dancing and the lead has got two left feet. I got an Audix D-6 after hearing a lot of self-noise from the D112 in a session and then hearing from some respected sources that said that is an issue with the D112...they told me this without knowing what mic I was using...I described the issue and they said "betcha its a D112...Am I right??" Sinc then I started mic'ing the inside with the D112 and putting a tunnel out front of the kick and putting the D-6 at the end of that because I wasn't too excited about how the D-6 sounding inside the kick. Now I want to try the D-6 about 3' out front of the kick (no tunnel) and at about waist-height pointing down at the top of the front head of the kick as an ambient mic and the D112 inside. BUT, outside of that I've reverted to the D112 as the old standby inside the kick. It just works...and the longer I do this the more I like the SM94. I got that mic over 15 years ago as a hi-hat mic not appreciating that it does a fantastic job in a lot of applications and one of them as a single-point kit mic. Its become one of my favorites. And the kit now actually belongs to my guitar playing, bass playing, singer and drummer friend...It was a kit I made back when I was doing custom drums. You've seen some of my threads by now yes? You can see that I'm passionately obsessive about how I go through these bits if gear and how much I try to digest of the theory and such...well, before I got into audio equipment and recording I went through years of that with drums to the piont that I began making them and repairing and customizing other's drums. I had become aware of some fundamental issues that, at the time, were ignored as critically important with the crafting of the drum. My personal kit is similar to the one I sold to my friend and is the one heard on the "3-hour" song:

https://www.torridheatstudios.com/pictures/General/IMG_1335_2_3_1.JPG
https://www.torridheatstudios.com/pictures/General/IMG_1332_1_3_1.JPG

Well, I can see your point, but there's always a degree of luck involved with a good sound - probably more than most engineers would like to admit! And you sound like you know what you want to hear, so all credit to you I think. We seem different on the "hammer-mechanic" thing, I'm sadly more of an "obssesive-tweaker" in terms of process! I can quite happily sit with a track and get a ballpark sound to it, run the track, improve it, run the track again, adjust the lower-mid, run it again, adjust the ambience, run again, compensate for the change in lower-mid due to the change in ambience... honestly, I don't think my approach is much better! Lol I do know roughly what sound I'm after and normally get there, or find something just as good, but how good the overall quality of my work is I don't know. I read a quote once from a *proper* pro engineer which went something like "I've *never* heard a mix that took more than a day that was any good!", and I think there's a degree of truth in that, depending on your ability. Some of the best songs ever written were written in the shortest time, so I wouldn't knock your technique. Maybe having had little spare time again works in your favour there!

Hey I've done my share of tweaking too...I'm a perfectionist, but I agree totally with that quote you submitted...There is so much importance I think we miss on listening fatigue. I think there is a tipping point when you aren't doing anything more than treading water when you're working on a mix. I did two full-length projects where it was day after day of tweak-tweak-tweak and then pick out something new on one piece and then go through the already done ones and apply the new bit and my goodness... Then, well after all that, I did that 3 hour thing and that's where I get my statement that I've just been trying too hard...or like those live tracks of my friend on guitar and vocals...throw up the mics and go...sounds great, and now I can listen to him anytime anywhere...isn't that what its all about??

Sorry, I'm really drifting off-topic here aren't I!

I clearly am an accomplice, and maybe the ringleader in that.

On your MS-16...if I were you I'd leave the lifters as they were. Those wear patterns can be a bad thing but it can be made worse by swapping worn parts around. Do you have a dial caliper go can get your hands on and measure the diameter of those lifter posts? I'm wondering if evm1024 might know where to get surgical tubing that fits them...thin-wall stainless tubing with which you can make "sleeves" that fit over the original post. It is also *possible* to rotate them but it is, as you have indicated, somewhat risky and by all reports a PITA. I think forum member Beck did it once on a...38? Can't recall. He was successful but IIRC he wasn't pushing it as "the thing" to do as it was a bit trepidatious.

You know what? Those new pictures are helpful...your heads look pretty good. they've got some wear but honestly I'd be really surpised if they didn't last you awhile and cal up just fine. The repro head's profile looks more modified than the record/sync head...wish there was a way to get some history on this deck...with the wear you are talking about on the output guide...like there was a problem with the takeup tension or something and excessive wear on the repro head and output guide and the repro head got more of a lap...dunno. Strange, but overall they look fine to me. Hopefully others will chime in.

Oh, and DON'T defeat the lifters for now in fast-wind...that puts that speeding tape on the much more valuable heads.

 

[retrodave]

What it's all about

Hey Sweetbeats

Sorry for the long delay - been having one of those mad weeks this week, the work just hasn't stopped! I hope things are good with you?

he's really a captivating person. I'm blessed to have him as a friend.

Absolutely, and I'm sure he's as unique a human being as a musician - thanks *very* much for the link to the second track from that night, again it's so beautiful and a real privilege to hear. I could listen to his music all day so easily.

I really feel I had little to do with engineering of any sort...That was how he sounded. His voice has a natural eq'ed quality and the guitar sounded fantastic and I knew I just wanted to capture how he sounded in the room.

I think you're a very modest guy and it takes a mature mind and ear to percieve that; but I totally understand what you're saying, and that is amazing, very few people I've personally known have that kind of tone and can produce something sonically so full and musically so accurate that could literally form the foundation *and* structure of a track pretty much dry! A man definitely always destined to share that gift. I *really* hope you guys get to work on some things together very soon.

I knew M+S was the thing because, more or less, that's what it does.

I really will have to try that technique more often, my desk doesn't have phase inversion buttons which has put me off in the past, I'll have to make a patch cable. So far I've always used omni or figure-8 and as you say backed up to where the tonal balance feels right, I seem to get okay results like that, but M+S does have a lot more scope. It really says something for your judgement and his musicianship that the balance of guitar to vocals is so good with a single set of mics! Seriously good stuff.

The Studio Projects B3 has done pretty well for me. It was cheap (I paid $159USD each), well-made and multi-patterned

It sounds like quite a find! My K2's were nowhere near that cheap, and seem to be holding their value too! Just goes to show it's always about function and not price doesn't it Sorry to hear about your experience with the C1, at least you gave it a try anyway. The sound is lovely and smooth through your B3's in your recordings, and really beautifully clear too which always seems a delicate balance.

Not boutique but has gotten the job done for me.

Definitely - and I'd defy anyone to say that's not a boutique sound, especially considering the circumstances! I *really* love your work with this guy, I can't *wait* to hear more in the future

Just making sure you caught it that there are no guitars per se on that one, but, again, all bass as far as melodic instrumentation.

Sorry my bad, yes I did catch it, I've just got a nasty habit of referring to bass and acoustic as "guitars" collectively - I really must stop doing that! Amazing sounds in that track anyway, and I love their ambience.

I'll have to try that with bringing the compressed tracks back in and mixing.

I've heard it's quite a good technique, again it's something I hope to use a bit more often, but I've had good results with it when I have tried it (providing there are no real phase issues). I've been trying to go for a complex compressed sound lately but using only simple compression, it's so hard to get something to sit well without killing its transients. I think you do a great job of that, I'd be interested to know what kind of overall levels you get in your rough mixes, in any case they all sound very natural and open, and it's a great thing to be able to preseve that all the way up to the mastering stage. I'm getting better at that but I think I have a long way to go!

I DO like how the compression "slammed" the kit, but what I'm hearing is that the stereo phasing is all whacky

Lol! Yes there was something very odd going on there! I'm guessing either that plugin didn't "do" stereo linking or just didn't really work - very strange! I'm sure there are loads of good compressor plugins out there, but the only ones I've ever heard in person that sounded *great* were the URS classic series, they're very good. Back when I was learning about software compression I tried the freeware Kjaerhaus Audio VST "Classic Compressor", that was actually pretty good!

I didn't even understand what "attack" and "release" did back then, much less how to use them.

It's wierd looking back isn't it, I know exactly what you mean! I can remember a time when I could drop a compressor across a track, set the gain to apparently the same as the source material, and not really hear what was happening at all! I knew it "felt" different almost, but it took a couple of weeks to begin to sink in fully. Like you I'm okay now at "hearing" the compression and whether it fits with the source, but it does feel very, very strange to increase a ratio and get quizzical looks from people who can't actually hear the difference! I can almost taste the peaks and feel the detail come up now - pity it hasn't made me much of a better engineer, lol!

I got an Audix D-6 after hearing a lot of self-noise from the D112 in a session and then hearing from some respected sources that said that is an issue with the D112...

Really? That's so strange, I've never encountered that with any D112's I've known of, and the engineers I've met all have a 112 in their arsenal (although lots tend to go for a condenser instead). I love my D112 and find it does a great job of filling in the bass to sub end of the kit sound, and I've only ever supplimented it with another dynamic away from the kick to get some clarity and "click" to the bassdrum, I think I used an SM57 for that. I'm loving simple overheads and spot-miking for any missing bits of the overall bandwidth at the moment, that's my favourite technique so far. I bet you'll get some interesting results with that D6 idea, I find the angle of the mic to the kick head makes a massive difference, and really helps if you're after a particular or unusual sound. I can see you moving that mic a bit closer to floor-level perhaps when you try it, just because of the bleed from other things... but I'm often wrong and from what I've heard I'm sure you'll get a great sound in any case! I'll be interested to find out.

the longer I do this the more I like the SM94. I got that mic over 15 years ago as a hi-hat mic not appreciating that it does a fantastic job in a lot of applications and one of them as a single-point kit mic.

Oh right, that's interesting! I've not used an SM94 myself, but it does seem like it's probably very good. It's an electret isn't it? The specs seem to show a nice gentle peak around 3K and a small hump about 9K, that must give a nice, clear sound. I really love the C-1000 for clarity, that's got to be the most precise mic I use, it's probably very similar to your '94.

My personal kit is similar to the one I sold to my friend and is the one heard on the "3-hour" song

Now that's a *nice* kit! Naively I was expecting to see a huge, very shiny kit with lots of bells and whistles, but I should've known you'd have something functional and classy which got the job done right! It looks beautifully solid and that's an awesome ride by the way! I'll dig out a picture of my kit to send to you sometime - it'll make you either laugh or cringe! It cost me about $60 (another classic eBay purchase!) and I changed all the cymbals as soon as I possibly could, it was *nasty*! I still hate the toms and need to try some better heads on them but even so I think it'll always be a bit of a disaster sonically! It does for my purpose for now anyway, and I think it suits my drumming ability for the time being...

You've seen some of my threads by now yes?

You know, I was planning to be able to say "yes, certainly" here.. but the sad truth is I haven't had as much as an hour to myself these last couple of weeks, I spend most of my time on this thread for now, lol! I have managed to catch a couple of your threads though so I'm definitely beginning to appreciate what you're about, I hope to have a bit more time soon so I can look through the forums in more detail. I think your attention to detail and theory is admirable and I really wish I'd done that more myself, I'm a bit of a late starter really and often find myself giving up on a fascinating train of knowledge because I need to be using some of it in the next hour or two! I'm really impressed you learned so much about drums, and making / customizing too, that really is the ultimate understanding of an instrument. I wish I had your knowledge! I'm sure you could probably guess most of the fundamentals that were.. ahem... "ignored" for the manufacture of my kit! I'm trying to learn more about drums and how to control and shape their sound naturally, but I think it's going to be a while before I have the time to do anything practical myself.

Hey I've done my share of tweaking too...I'm a perfectionist

I'm glad I'm not alone in that! Have you ever done that classic trick of reaching out to add a notch of air to a track, tweaked it to perfection, and then looked up to discover you were tweaking a *totally* different (and currently muted) channel? That still happens to me now and again - fortunately now I usually look up to find out why what I'm hearing doesn't seem *quite* consitient with my actions - but I always remember it as a reminder of how much of a perception perfection really is sometimes! Lol.

There is so much importance I think we miss on listening fatigue. I think there is a tipping point when you aren't doing anything more than treading water when you're working on a mix.

I agree with you completely there, and it does make me wonder how the top mix engineers actually handle their workflow, whether they're so used to the deterioration that they can work alongside it, or they stop working when the feel the objectiveness begin to evaporate. I find I can go about six hours at a time if I'm careful of changing monitor levels often (and keeping them *LOW* for most of it!) before I start to lose focus, if I do that my ears always feel very clear the next time I listen back. I applaud your efforts with that loooong tweaking session - man, that sounds *painful*! I'm still guilty of losing myself in a single sound a little too much, but I'm learning I hope to know when to back up, and I know if I've got it wrong that track will jump out at me the next time I take a break and play the song afterwards! I'm trying to mix as I go along these days, to not be afraid to track up almost as I mean to mix, and although I've painted myself into an awkward corner sometimes I think it's really helping - after all, I don't feel guilty about taking the time to get the sound right (it *has* to be, that way!) and it's nice to be able to focus on little effects and clarity at mixdown instead of patching in every bit of outboard in the studio at once! I find a reference invaluable when tracking and mixing, and that always gives me a benchmark to play around with, so I never stray too far from how it all should sound even if I'm into territory I don't have much experience of. I think you're completely right, and trying too hard is a seductive pitfall everyone should be aware of. I guess good theory and a sense of fun (and a willingness to experiment!) is all that's *really* needed

sounds great, and now I can listen to him anytime anywhere...isn't that what its all about??

Amen to that I can't add anything there - I think you've got it spot on!

I clearly am an accomplice, and maybe the ringleader in that.

Lol! Ahh, that's what I want them to think... ever seen the Usual Suspects? Honestly man, it's my pleasure.

On your MS-16...if I were you I'd leave the lifters as they were.

I hear ya - and I've put them back the way they were, I agree with you completely. I did lace a tape and raise them manually... and the wear was smack in the centre of the contact area! So I think they can stay that way for now...

Do you have a dial caliper go can get your hands on and measure the diameter of those lifter posts?

Hmm, not in my toolkit - but I'll see if I can dig one up from somewhere, that's a good idea.

I'm wondering if evm1024 might know where to get surgical tubing that fits them...thin-wall stainless tubing with which you can make "sleeves" that fit over the original post.

Really? That would be excellent - should I perhaps PM him or something? You don't think perhaps I should get them turned again then, that was what I'd thought of doing originally as it won't make much difference to their function if they become a fair bit smaller in diameter. If only I could think of some way to grip them (and owned a seriously heavy-duty vice!) without scoring them badly I'd love to rotate them, but other than that those sleeves are looking like a mighty good idea!

You know what? Those new pictures are helpful...your heads look pretty good.

Yay! That's definitely good news! They did look a bit worse in the original pics than they do in real life, but even so they are a fair bit worn - judging on how long they last though I'm sure you're right and I'm hopeful of getting a good bit of use from them! I do tend to shuttle back over sections quite a lot when working so I'm sure this MS-16's going to do some miles! But hopefully I can treat the heads carefully and look after them.

I scored myself a Tentelometer last week by the way! About $50, and it'll do up to 200g so it's ideal for this transport in non-wind modes (I *think* it might be the model shown in the manual as it happens!). So I'm thrilled with that! My plan is to make sure the tape tension is always within spec and nice and gentle on the heads, perhaps I can make the whole mech last a little longer that way. I'm just on the lookout for a good demagger now... I'm itching to get this thing cal'd up! Hopefully in the next couple of weeks I'll finally get my hands on one.

The repro head's profile looks more modified than the record/sync head...wish there was a way to get some history on this deck...

Hmm, yes you're right there - it always looked more worn to me too unfortunately. I don't like to trouble the previous owner for more info really as I know he's a busy guy, but I *think* from what I've gathered this machine might've come from a small tracking / "post-production" studio in London, the cal tape it came with is labelled with a studio name, although it's a long shot it could well have been a tape that travelled with the machine from new. It does look like it was fairly well used, but well looked after too, so it's possible it's been a minor workhorse in it's time. You could be right about the takeup tension, it just seems so odd that the wear would occur more on the guide than the head, and in only that one place too. I'm just thankful it was put right, and I *must* make sure the tension is level before I start doing anything serious with this deck!

Oh, and DON'T defeat the lifters for now in fast-wind...that puts that speeding tape on the much more valuable heads.

Okay, I'll take your advice there! I had planned to perhaps just defeat them for the time it took to run the cal tape a few times, but it did sound like a bad idea when I read it back - so I'll heed your words and save those heads! After all they're much more important. I'll have to look into those thin sleeves - I think they may be the answer perhaps, thanks for that.

As I say I'm excitedly awaiting a demagger at the moment, I've seen a few different ones for sale but none that I know enough about (except the HanDMag which I can't afford), and most seem to be designed for "reel-to-reel" which I'm assuming is probably small 1/4" guides and the like. There is a possibility this machine was stored laced for a while so I really want to make sure it's clean of magnetic problems first before I give her a test run. I've been looking for some tape this last week too, I've checked a few sources (including some of the ones mentioned on this forum), but also turned up some disturbing information. A couple of fairly reputable sources are suggesting that late Quantegy stock is *also* succeptible to sticky shed, or minor binder problems at least! I honestly thought all post '95 stock was fine - I guess it might be, but that has got me a bit concerned, as I was planning to track down some cartons of cheaper, no longer made stuff instead of paying new prices! I don't think I want to risk that now. I think it's better really, I desperately want to help support the current tape manufacturers (man, if they go under what do all us analogue guys *do*? ) so I'd rather be putting money into their coffers, it might be only a little contribution but if everyone buys new it should help the lorries to keep rolling out. I'm going to give some RMGI a try (I've heard it's good for archiving, and ATR is good but *so* pricey!), so I'm hoping to order a couple of reels of that in the next few weeks, and print some "house tones" if she'll come up to spec... exciting times!! I just can't *wait* to hear how she sounds, I keep seeing Tascam 238's online and thinking of that lovely warmth you discovered - it's going to be a *good* day when I print my first track at last!

Cheers for the reply Sweetbeats - I'll let you know the news as soon as the goodies arrive here.

Thanks!

 

[Seeker of Rock]

My MS-16 is up for sale because I don't use it much these days because of lack of space and loss of a band mate that I used to do all my recording and writing with...life goes on. Mine, with freshly re-lapped heads and everything working is up on Craig's List for $1250 Canadian and that includes the AQ65 remote and the remote track arming kit with manual and snakes.

Man, that is a HELL of a deal! Sad, I just listed my 488 MKII on ebay today. I'm just not using it anymore and I have the "bigger" setup now. Still sad though, especially after listening to some bass tracks on it. Big, defined, and bassy. Who would've thought out of a little cassette 8 tracker?

Dude, whoever gets your MS16 for that price is getting a hell of a deal.

 

[The Ghost of FM]

Man, that is a HELL of a deal! Sad, I just listed my 488 MKII on ebay today. I'm just not using it anymore and I have the "bigger" setup now. Still sad though, especially after listening to some bass tracks on it. Big, defined, and bassy. Who would've thought out of a little cassette 8 tracker?

Dude, whoever gets your MS16 for that price is getting a hell of a deal.

That's what I thought too. Yet after 6 months on Craig's List, there still isn't one soul in the greater Toronto area with the cash to buy it.

Yes, I've had low ball offers and tons of inquiries but not one single serious candidate.

So for now, it sits covered over in my closet.

Cheers!

 

[C.M.S.]

Just picked one of these up as well!!

MS-16. So happy to finally have one.

Just when I was getting settled into working with a friend's 58 (he graciously lent the machine while working on a few problems I couldn't get to the bottom of with a pair of 38s...what a guy) - and very happy with the results so far - one of these came up for sale not far away, and I couldn't help jumping on it.

Now the search for MRL tape and Manual... not to mention 1" stock!

I know the channel cards for the MS-16 are identical to those found in the 58... does the same go for the 38 as well? For some reason I never hear it put that way, but if so, I'll be glad to have a few spares since it's likely one of the 38s will end up a parts machine.

Also curious to see how things shape up for you on the other side of the Atlantic...best of luck!

 

[retrodave]

Welcome to the club

Hey CMS, how you doing?

MS-16. So happy to finally have one.

Nice aren't they I'm really glad you found one, and got a good deal by the sound of it. Did you check out Sweetbeats' effort with the Tascam 238? I thought that was neat

Now the search for MRL tape and Manual... not to mention 1" stock!

Just PM'd you about the manual - MRL tapes seem to be all over the place to me, I guess finding one without binder problems might be awkward... I'm planning to bake mine if it's a bit tacky and then make a set of reference tones of my own when I "know" the machine's up to spec - you could give that a try? I'm sure someone here knows where to find new MRL tapes these days?

As to the stock, I'm personally not going to be buying anything except new now having read some horror stories about NOS stuff - RMGI are still manufacturing as are ATR, I know in the UK here SVS, Stanley Productions and Studiospares are supplying, and both RMGI and ATR Magnetics seem to have good dealer links on their home sites - you could hit them up to find a local supplier? Cheapest I've seen so far is $120 odd for 2500' of 456 equivalent, seems pricey but not bad, and it's good to support the remaining manufacturers I reckon!

Man, that is a HELL of a deal!

Yeah, I'm with you guys on this one... I'm *amazed* that machine hasn't sold... YET! Give it time, I'm sure there are some buyers sick with not being able to dig up the cash, but I'm sure it'll go. Heck, I'd have it myself if I could afford it and had a way to get it back to the UK! I got a good deal on mine, but might well spend more in total by the time I've got her up and running well - perhaps this is a sign Ghost that you're *supposed* to be keeping this machine... lol!

You guys seen the offerings on eBay recently by the way? Someone's got an MS-16 up for about £1K which is "interesting", and there's a machine in the US going for $2K, the pics of the head look a little worrying to me.. but I'm no expert. I saw one go in Scotland here recently for about $300 - I was *gutted* I hadn't bought it myself for spares!

Good luck with your multitrack CMS - let me know if I can be of any help to you.

Cheers

 

[retrodave]

Erm... is this normal??

Hey guys,

Wonder if I can pick your brains again a little? I had some time to work on the MS-16 today, so I stripped down the transport button assembly to investigate the failed STOP bulb, and thought I'd take a closer look at the capacitors in the PSU (I didn't actually remove the PCB when I checked before). I *think* I've found a dying cap! The main, large smoothing caps look slightly domed (but that's normal, right?), but I feel like I should replace C39 and C40 straight away - they're 25v 3300uF and 50v 1000uF - are my instincts right? C40 in particular (the one on the left with too much casing showing!) looks pretty bad to me, *could* it just be a manufacturing fault or something? What do you think?

Here's the full-res pics:

The whole PCB from the rear:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.humphreys40/tascam_ms16/psu_angle-back.jpg
The whole PCB from the front:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.humphreys40/tascam_ms16/psu_angle-front.jpg
C14 and C15:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.humphreys40/tascam_ms16/psu_c14-c15.jpg
C23:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.humphreys40/tascam_ms16/psu_c23.jpg
C3 and C4:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.humphreys40/tascam_ms16/psu_c3-c4.jpg
C30 and C31:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.humphreys40/tascam_ms16/psu_c30-c31.jpg
C39, C40 and C41:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.humphreys40/tascam_ms16/psu_c39-c41.jpg
The whole PCB from the left:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.humphreys40/tascam_ms16/psu_flat-left.jpg
The whole PCB from the right:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.humphreys40/tascam_ms16/psu_flat-right.jpg
An overhead scan of the PCB:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.humphreys40/tascam_ms16/psu_scan.jpeg

I noticed a small ridge (most visible on C30-C31) where it appears the outer sheathing has retreated a bit from the pressure cap, is that a warning sign or just some heat expansion? I could just replace everything I guess in case there's any doubt...

Thanks for any opinions anyone can offer me! I'm keen to replace any dodgy caps ASAP as I have a demagger on the way at last!! Exciting stuff... will she spec up? I can hardly wait to find out finally!

Cheers guys!

 

[sweetbeats]

Dave, regarding M+S, it really is a lot of fun. Sometimes I'll use it as a configuration to capture the whole drumkit in place of overheads. You don't get the wide distinct soundstage (tom fill sweeping across) as you do with X-Y or just hanging them over each end of the kit, but you *totally* get the ambiance of the space which is a real benefit for certain styles. It is really exciting to bring up the M channel and go "okay...THAT sounds dry..." and then you bring up the S channels and WOW it just opens up. And of course the great advantage to M+S mic'ing is it doesn't mess up your mono mix or get lost in a mono mix.

Now that's a *nice* kit! Naively I was expecting to see a huge, very shiny kit with lots of bells and whistles, but I should've known you'd have something functional and classy which got the job done right! It looks beautifully solid and that's an awesome ride by the way!

And I remembered on the "3-hour song" the bass drum is the only drum from the kit pictured that I used for that track...it was just kick and snare, hats and a crash cymbal...the snare was a little 12" x 5" 6-lug snare I made...and actually that snare is the one I used on the "Crimson Road" piece. The green drums have a proprietary lug design of mine that was developed in concert with my drum mentor from college who did R&D for both Slingerland and Yamaha...and the ride cymbal...I have two and I love them both: a 22" A Zildjian ride that is a fabulous big crash (gotta really wang it though...) and has a polite colorful shoulder and bell...the other is my K Custom Dry which is 20" and is just a great cymbal. I will never change that one out. Doesn't work for everything but I love it. Anything older from Jack Dejohnette will give an idea how this cymbal sounds.

Really? That would be excellent - should I perhaps PM him or something? You don't think perhaps I should get them turned again then, that was what I'd thought of doing originally as it won't make much difference to their function if they become a fair bit smaller in diameter. If only I could think of some way to grip them (and owned a seriously heavy-duty vice!) without scoring them badly I'd love to rotate them, but other than that those sleeves are looking like a mighty good idea!

Couldn't hurt to send him a PM and he could, at the least, let you know where he gets the stuff from...I'd be really surprised if they could be machined since they are integrated with the mount...no reasonable way to chuck that up in a lathe. I recently bought a new set of lifters for my BR-20T for about $20USD. Options...

I scored myself a Tentelometer last week by the way! About $50...

That is AWESOME! What is the model number? Rolling or stationary probes?

 

[sweetbeats]

Dave,

I took a look at the PSU cap images...everything looks pretty typical in there to me.

Get it going and play with it is what I'd advise. Have some fun with it, and then if you decide to start getting into any recapping just start with the PSU, but those caps all look normal to me. The larger caps with the plastic film on the top...I've always experienced those domed up like that. That's not the metal top of the can. The one that looks like the top of the can is extending out of the insulation, I dunno. My guess is that one got wrapped a bit off. I think you're okay.

 

[C.M.S.]

Hey Dave,
thanks again for the manual.

You did a great job on the transfers, and it's already been a huge help these last few days.

Nice Avatar, BTW... I'm a little jealous of that model's Meter Head design.

Best,
CS

 

[retrodave]

Custom Drums and Tentelometers

Hey guys,

Thanks for the replies!

it's already been a huge help these last few days.

That's great news, and I'm *really* glad to know you're getting on well - keep us posted on what happens!

Nice Avatar, BTW... I'm a little jealous of that model's Meter Head design.

Lol! Ahh, yes, I am rather proud of that! I think the design with the meter bridge mounted in the front panel is nice too mind you, it's handy not having the XLR's protruding out of the back an extra few inches if you're short on space. According to the manual the MS-16's came with a few brackets (and a cable if I remember right) so you could convert the design from one to the other quite easily, you might have had those perhaps with your machine. There was another stand type though wasn't there, I noticed one of the MS-16's on eBay is in a tiltable console. Glad you like the avatar - it's not the final version but it'll do for now Ah, she's a beautiful multitrack!

regarding M+S, it really is a lot of fun. Sometimes I'll use it as a configuration to capture the whole drumkit in place of overheads.

That's a very interesting idea, I'll have to try it sometime - that probably produces a more balanced sound as you can pick just one spot with a great sound? And I love the idea of being able to control the width that much on mixdown, very handy!

the great advantage to M+S mic'ing is it doesn't mess up your mono mix or get lost in a mono mix.

Good point - I wonder if it's slightly harder to mix though as there *is* some 100% mono information in there at important frequencies? Or perhaps there's no difference in practice.. you know what, I'm gonna have to try it to find out...

And I remembered on the "3-hour song" the bass drum is the only drum from the kit pictured that I used for that track...

Lol! It is hard to keep track sometimes isn't it! It's a lovely sounding drum anyhow.

it was just kick and snare, hats and a crash cymbal...

It sounds fabulous - definitely good proof that a bad workman does indeed blame their tools - you don't need a massive kit to make a big, complex sound Great work!

the snare was a little 12" x 5" 6-lug snare I made...

Wow, you *made* that snare? That's pretty amazing, it's a really nice, rounded sound... perhaps you should be making custom drums for a living! I know *way* too little about drums, and snares in particular, I know I've loved the wood snares I've heard, and like a good piccolo for funk stuff, but apart from that it seems to me that most "budget" snares all sound the same - kind of cracky and an almost nasty resonance lower-mid! Yours sounds *miles* better!!

a proprietary lug design of mine that was developed in concert with my drum mentor from college who did R&D for both Slingerland and Yamaha...

Man.. that's something *really* special! Amazing credentials from your mentor too I can't actually see much difference _visually_ in the lugs in the pictures, I'm sure I must be missing something. How did the design affect the drum, was it mainly to do with tuning or a real across-the-board thing that altered the resonance etc.? I'd be interested to know.

Your rides sound *Nice*, especially the K Custom Dry, it must be awesome if you're that attached to it. A good ride seems hard to find to me, I've never had problems getting a generally nice ride sound with brushes but I've noticed the few I've tried have an unpleasant low-frequency ringing or sharp sounding bell (ironically the bell always sounds better miked, and the rest worse!). I changed out all the cymbals on my kit for Paiste 101 set, which was a *massive* improvement (I love the 16" crash, it works pretty well as a ride too!) and I added a 14" 502 which is a nice difference in colour from the 16". I don't think my kit would stand up to much compared to the ones you've had! That's a *lovely* drum sound and you really know how to play them.

About the lifters;

I'd be really surprised if they could be machined since they are integrated with the mount...no reasonable way to chuck that up in a lathe.

Yeah I thought that might be the case... I had wondered if perhaps there was a tool that could be used to center wierd shaped metalwork in the chuck, but I guess even a fraction of a mil out could alter the alignment drastically even if that was possible.. that's a shame. I'll give the guy a PM anyway and see what I can find out I reckon the sleeves are the answer!

I recently bought a new set of lifters for my BR-20T for about $20USD. Options...

That's incredible! I'll have to keep an eye open, that'd be a deal I couldn't pass up!

That is AWESOME! What is the model number? Rolling or stationary probes?

I was kinda pleased too! As you know my budget doesn't exist, so I thought even if it wasn't ideal or working well it was still worth a shot. It's a T2-H7-UM, which is apparently designed for 1/2" video tape, but it can read up to 200g and seemed to calibrate okay for me with some 1" stuck on the supplied 1oz weight so I'm hoping it's good to go! It's a stationary probe model, and has obviously seen better days (it has the company name scratched across the plastic beneath the meter window, it's probably seen some service!) but it all seems to respond well - I'm just waiting for the demagger to arrive now so I can give the machine a proper test-drive and see how she's doing. Watch this space...

Thanks very much for checking through the cap pics for me too, it's much appreciated. I'm glad to know you're comfortable with the look of them in general, and it's comforting to get a second opinion on the shape of the top of the larger ones. I *thought* that was true but you know what it's like when it's your call.. I didn't wanna hear that bubbling sound followed by buzzing on the audio and a funny smell! I hear you about the badly-wrapped cap (possible dodgy band name there? ), I wasn't at all sure about it, but good to know it's not sounding alarm bells for you. I'll make sure it's the first one I change when I do re-cap the PSU... just in case!

Cheers for all your help guys!