Tascam M-30... thoughts?

[analogkid]

Yep the DBX thing is pretty important - RRuskin is 100% correct. Truthfully the Two reasons I think so many people are down on DBX is that they record too hot - not understanding that the extra 'headroom' is an illusion - and/or they don't have the DBX unit calibrated correctly. The truth is, the ONE THING that drove the industry to DIgital is the constant calibrating and adjusting required to keep analog gear working as it should.






AK

 

[Rickson Gracie]

Can anyone tell me the difference in EQ section of the M-30 compared to the M-308? Is it an improvement?

Thanks

 

[lo.fi.love]

1. Is your tape machine properly aligned/calibrated?
2. Is all of your other equipment calibrated so the "0" on the meters means the same thing?
3. Dbx is the last thing to be set. Use Ikhz @ 0vu. Level should remain within 1db when nr is switched in or out.
4. You defeat the purpose of the dbx by recording past "0." It can no longer operate properly. If you back down so that average is in the -3 range and peaks don't exceed +1, you will be much better off.
5. Your video shows a line level source (cassette deck) going through an nr unit (is it the right type for that tape?) going into a preamp (not needed at all) going to a bunch of other signal processing gear as well as the M-30. It is no wonder the end result is noisy. It's not the gear, it's the operator causing most, if not all of the problems you cite.

1. No, not yet. I keep waiting for a friend of mine to get his act together so we can calibrate our decks. I'm tired of waiting. I might just bite the bullet and buy a MRL tape for myself to keep.
2. That is what I will be working on tonight.
3. I'm going to figure this out. I have the manuals for 150x units.
4. I may be misunderstanding something here, because what you say contradicts my interpretation of the dbx 150x manual. To quote the section titled "Compensating for an Encoded Signal":

The hotter you record (or transmit) a dbx-encoded signal, the better the overall dynamic range and Signal-to-Noise will be. This holds true until you hit tape saturation, at which point the playback quality will deteriorate.

After a signal has been encoded, peaks are 50% lower. You are safe recording at least 50% hotter. If you have peak-reading meters on your deck, set the record levels on the machine so that the signal never exceeds the tape's headroom and tape saturation problems will be avoided.

This is the reason why I was recording up to +3: I interpreted the paragraphs above as saying that I should do this. However, if you skip to the middle of the next paragraph in the manual, you will find this:

(Since many tape meters stop at +3, and have different 0 levels, and since meter time constants vary so much, we can't even suggest a [level] number.)

So, I wasn't really sure what to do, and I've clearly done myself a disservice by not first calibrating the NR units once I dropped them into the signal flow. I'll address this at the end of my "tune-up", as you have suggested/advised.

5. The cassette was recorded on my Marantz PMD-430 using its built-in dbx type II noise reduction. The noise reduction unit shown in the video is a dbx NX-40 Type II noise reduction unit. I used the preamp to boost the signal into the mixer and then through a compressor, in order to "compress up" the signal. It seems like doing it this way works better than using the output gain on the compressor. The preamp on my compressor (dbx 166xl) seems noisy to me. And, in the video, the dbx EQ was not in the signal chain. The signal flow was:

Cassette -> dbx NX-40 -> preamp -> M-30 (on XLR ins) -> Buss effects-send to compressor -> buss effects-return on M-30 -> dbx 150x -> Tascam 34b

There's a lot of steps in the chain. Perhaps a better way to achieve the result I want would be this:

Cassette -> dbx NX-40 -> preamp -> compressor -> m-30 -> dbx 150x -> Tascam 34b

- - -

Either way, it's quite clear that I need to pull everything apart, rethink my strategy, and calibrate everything along the signal chain. I've noticed a couple of other issues coming up and it's either because I'm doing something wrong or that my equipment isn't setup correctly. It's likely both, possibly more of the former.

This has been a real educational experience for me, which is *exactly* what I was hoping for. My recording setup has grown to a point where I really need to mind signal flow and minimize the number of "links" in the chain.

I'm considering getting a patch bay, too. I need to stay on top of "what's-plugged-in-to-what", and it's getting pretty difficult. It's also a real pain to scoot everything around to make dis/connections. You can probably see in the video that I don't have very much space to work with. It's also time to get a bigger desk

 

[RRuskin]

There's a lot of steps in the chain. Perhaps a better way to achieve the result I want would be this:

Cassette -> dbx NX-40 -> preamp -> compressor -> m-30 -> dbx 150x -> Tascam 34b

- - -

Get rid of the preamp. The added gain of a preamp is not needed. The compressor should be used only if you desire to process the signal. Otherwise, don't use it.

What input are you using on the M-30? It should be either line or tape in. Although, the mic pre will work, it's not ideal for a line level signal.
If you have a manual for the M-30, I suggest you read it.

 

[lo.fi.love]

Get rid of the preamp. The added gain of a preamp is not needed. The compressor should be used only if you desire to process the signal. Otherwise, don't use it.

I am using the compressor. It's there for a reason. I use the preamp to boost the signal into the compressor so I can "compress up" without having to use the output gain on the compressor.

What input are you using on the M-30? It should be either line or tape in. Although, the mic pre will work, it's not ideal for a line level signal.
If you have a manual for the M-30, I suggest you read it.

My preamp has only balanced outs, so I connect it to the mixer via XLR.

And, I've read the manual quite extensively, thanks.

I don't want to cause trouble, but I feel like my intelligence is being second-guessed here. I am new to this, and I am going to make mistakes, but I'm not just goofing off and throwing things together in a haphazard manner. For the most part I DO know what I'm doing, and I'm asking questions here because I need to augment my existing knowledge, not because I'm unwilling learn this on my own... quite the opposite, actually.

Your post is rather condescending and dismissive. Why would I throw a compressor into the chain if I didn't need it? Why would I use a preamp if I didn't need to boost the signal? Those are ridiculous questions, which second-guess my judgment as a relatively intelligent person who's new to analog audio.

That's the end of my rant. Thanks.

----
PS: I'm not sure if I'm overreacting. It is extremely difficult to gauge the "Tone" of written message. I hope you meant to be helpful, but it's easy to misread your message as being otherwise.

 

[RRuskin]

I am using the compressor. It's there for a reason. I use the preamp to boost the signal into the compressor so I can "compress up" without having to use the output gain on the compressor.



My preamp has only balanced outs, so I connect it to the mixer via XLR.

And, I've read the manual quite extensively, thanks.

I don't want to cause trouble, but I feel like my intelligence is being second-guessed here. I am new to this, and I am going to make mistakes, but I'm not just goofing off and throwing things together in a haphazard manner. For the most part I DO know what I'm doing, and I'm asking questions here because I need to augment my existing knowledge, not because I'm unwilling learn this on my own... quite the opposite, actually.

Your post is rather condescending and dismissive. Why would I throw a compressor into the chain if I didn't need it? Why would I use a preamp if I didn't need to boost the signal? Those are ridiculous questions, which second-guess my judgment as a relatively intelligent person who's new to analog audio.

That's the end of my rant. Thanks.

----
PS: I'm not sure if I'm overreacting. It is extremely difficult to gauge the "Tone" of written message. I hope you meant to be helpful, but it's easy to misread your message as being otherwise.

Treat your signal anyway you want but the fact remains that you are using 2 preamps when you need none. The cassette deck doesn't need it because it's a line-level device. Sending it's signal through a mic pre adds nothing but noise and distortion because it's not expecting to see that hot a signal. The output of the mic pre is also line-level so bringing it in to the M-30 mic pre is adding even more noise and distortion. In terms of level, a compressor is not needed with or without the preamps but again, it too, is a line-level device.

 

[sweetbeats]

lo.fi...sorry you're feeling the way you're feeling.

Do what works for you, but when you put stuff up here you're going to get advisement, which comes in different forms.

I too am wondering about a better way to achieve your goal by using your gear in a different manner that might be closer to what was intended by the makers...I think maybe I might do well by asking YOU some questions:

What is happening without the outboard preamp? In other words, what was the problem that gets addressed by putting that in the chain?

Mic pre's are designed to amplifiy the verrry small signals of mics, right? And line-level signals are MUCH stronger than mic level. The signal coming off of the cassette deck should be at line level and should need nothing else (besides the dbx in this case) on te way to the 34, unless the cassette tape record levels were low and you are wanting to boost the line level signal, but the M30 should take care of that by connecting the output of the dbx unit to a line input on the M30 and then on to the 34. Like Rick said, since mic pre's are designed to boost mic level signals there is a bunch of circuitry in there that is unneccessary for boosting line-level signals and so you add unneccessary noise and distortion by doing what you are doing.

Secondly, I'm not quite clear why you have the compressor in the chain...its not you, its me. I think I'm not understanding what you mean by compress up. If it were me I'd have the chain: cassette~dbx~M30~34.

That would give you the cleanest signal path if needing the line amp control of the M30, but I'm assuming there is something I'm missing as to why the outboard mic pre is in the chain as well as the compressor.

 

[lo.fi.love]

Just a quick note before I reply to anything: I apologize for being such a grouch. Yesterday wasn't a good day for me. Thanks for everyone's help so far... I'm going to reread the posts and reply soon.