Tascam m-16oo Question

  • Thread starter Thread starter NL5
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NL5

NL5

Unpossible!
I am having a terrible time with the pre-amps in this mixer. Are they known for not-so-great preamps. I know they wont compare to good stand alone pre's, but the whine and hiss like crazy, unless I turn them way dow, then I get very little signal.

Thanks in advance,

NL5
 
I've never heard a 1600 series mixer so I don't have any direct experience with it.

I own an older M312B mixer and my pre's are pretty good actually!

I know your mixer was a newer design but it was also a less expensive design too and one of the first cost cutting measures in that design era and price range was to cut some corners on the microphone pre-amps.

I think TASCAM was hoping to appeal to the Mackie users at that point and figured that most users would be using very efficient mic's with loud sources that wouldn't over-tax the gain stage designs of the pre's.

You might be able to improve your situation by changing microphones or simply playing louder to attain more natural gain but, I think that's about it for options unless you know of a sharp technician in your area that could mod the pre's to improve their gain?

Good luck!

Cheers! :)
 
Thanks for the reply.

Could there be any external influences causing the noise? I shut off everthing in the room, and it was still there, but there may be other things on the same circuit. And, we use compact flourecents all over the house. Could that be it?
It get's real bad at full tilt. If the trim is set at 12 O'clock, and the fader is below 0, then it is all but dead silent. It's only a problem when recording acoustic instruments.

Thanks again,

NL5
 
At the gain levels you just mentioned, 12 o'clock on trim and below hash-marks on the channel fader, you should be getting decent gain for a decent microphone.

If you truly have to crank the trim to full to get a level, I suspect your microphone is not well suited to the job.

I record acoustic guitars and vocals on my board with levels closer to the normal high noon settings and regular range on the channel fader with an AT4033 mic.

What microphone are you using?

btw;

From what you described of your lighting, it doesn't sound like anything is overtly weird there but, fluorescent lighting can be problematic in some cases when the ballasts go bad or share the same circuit in the room that the sound gear is on.

Cheers! :)
 
I found this spec for sensitivity for my microphone, the AT4033;

Open Circuit Sensitivity

-32 dB (25.1 mV), ±2 dB re 1V at 1 Pa


How does that number compare with your current mics?
 
I checked the Shure site for the sensitivity spec on that mic and there is quite a difference there!

Sensitivity at 1000Hz
open circuit voltage -54dbV/Pa (1.9 mv)

I'm not sure if these specs are formulated the same way but there is a difference of 22db of sensitivity between an SM57 and my AT4033.

The theory being, the more sensitive the mic the less gain it needs to produce a decent, clean output.

The NTK mic you mentioned; is that the entire model number or just a brand name?

Cheers! :)
 
It's a Rode NTK.

-38db, so it should do almost as well as the 4033.
 
NL5 said:
It's a Rode NTK.

-38db, so it should do almost as well as the 4033.
Click to expand...

Yes.

It's closer but still 6 db in the land of electrical gain is still a fair number I suspect.

Are you finding that you have to turn up the trim control as much on the NTK as you do one SM57? I am hopeful you will tell us you don't and that these sensitivity numbers actually mean something!

Mic placement also plays a big part in achieving gain but will effect ambiance and eq quite a bit.

I know with the Shure SM57, it's designed primarily to be very close mic'ed to things like guitar cabinets and drums but it is not generally known as an acoustic guitar mic.

Perhaps working more with just the NTK for acoustic guitar would be in your best interests here?

Changing or upgrading pre-amps I don't think is going to drastically improve your gain structure problems as much as considering different microphones and playing with placement to help solve your problem.

Sorry I couldn't be of more assistance to you.

Cheers! :)
 
NL5, Do you have the mixer setup at the correct output level for the rest of your gear? it is switchable between -10 and +4 on the back, in several places for setting it up to work correctly with different recorders and other outboard gear, and if you are using a unbalanced -10 recorder input, you need to not only have the level switch set right for the I/O "block" that the D-sub cable(s) are hooked up to, but you also have to "unbalance" the D-sub cable(s) itself by actually cutting off the wire that goes to the "ring" portion of each 1/4" Tip/Ring/Sleeve connector, same goes for the D-sub(s) being used for tape returns, they too need to be manualy unbalanced.

That being said, I used to use an M-1600 24x8 with a TASCAM MSR16S 1/2" 16 track reel to reel, and I REALLY didn't like the way the pre's sounded, I greatly prefered using the pre's on my TASCAM M-208, or Mackie 1202 VLZ, or my ART Pro MPA. I can't say this enough, to me, those pre's sounded like pure shit, and that's without the gain issues.

I also found that when using the line inputs at -10 (for tape returns, because I already had the multi-pair snakes to do it, and was being too cheap to buy 2 more D-sub cables to use), I would have to crank the gain up to about 2 or 3 o'clock to get a usable signal, and the board was severely lacking in headroom, crosstalk was also a major issue, so much so that I had to be really careful with the kick drum, it could easily make every meter jump, right across the board.

I would rather mix 16 tracks on two Mackie 1202 VLZ's than use that board again... at the time, I thought that getting a 24x8 console with the meterbridge for 900 bucks was a good deal, until I plugged it in.

Anybody wanna buy a mixer? ............ CHEAP? :D
 
Strryder,

You seem to be confirming what I originally wrote about in this thread, basically, that the 1600 represented a less then idea design era for TASCAM in that they were, for the first time in their history, building mixers to compete with the bottom end of the market, build for price-point over performance.

Perhaps this is why I am happy with my antique M312B mixers which were over 3 grand a piece when new and built accordingly.

The old adage; "You get what you pay for", seems to fit here pretty well.

Cheers! :)
 
Man, you guys really now how to make a guy feel special.

I checked the settings..the MOTU has +4 balanced inputs, and that is what the mixer is set at. I'm starting to realize (like you guys are saying), that this board is a big POS.

What to do, what to do.

Thanks again...

NL5

edit - oh ya, I thought the 24X8 was great too...thought that was what I needed (8 group outs)...dumb, dumb, dumb. Only good thing is I got a really good deal, so hopefully I can make my money back. It really wouldn't be a bad live mixer for a rock band...it just sucks at acoustic instuments.
 
The Ghost of FM said:
Strryder,

You seem to be confirming what I originally wrote about in this thread, basically, that the 1600 represented a less then idea design era for TASCAM in that they were, for the first time in their history, building mixers to compete with the bottom end of the market, build for price-point over performance.

Perhaps this is why I am happy with my antique M312B mixers which were over 3 grand a piece when new and built accordingly.

The old adage; "You get what you pay for", seems to fit here pretty well.

Cheers! :)
Click to expand...

TG of FM,

Absolutely, "you get what you pay for" seems to be very true in this case, I have made some "bad" purchases over the years, and this was certainly one of them, and I'm reminded of it every time I walk past the box with this mixer sitting in it, I'll probably end up getting rid of it as a trade in at a music store, for less than 1/2 of what I paid for it... oh well, some things are costlier lessons than others..

Years ago, I had an M308-B mixer, and that was a nice mixer, too bad I sold it off after switching from an 8 to a 16 track setup, I still do have my old M-208 though, it's sitting in a rack, and I still use it sometimes for tracking guitars, I use it basically as a single preamp with EQ, that can "remember" 8 different tracking setups by way of hardware! LOL.. that way, if I'm in the middle of a session and need to retrack a rhythm part, the channel I used is still setup just as it was, gain and EQ just as I left 'em, same thing for other rhythm, and lead sounds, plus, I like the way it sounds and just can't bring myself to get rid of it, (or my TSR-8 either, even though I don't use it anymore), real quality is mighty pricey these days.

Even though I've gone computer based for recording, every now and then I get an urge to pick up an M312-B to use with my rig, it would make a great front end for this task, and the monitor section would allow you to run 4 stereo submixes out of the box without giving up any input channels. :)
 
NL5

Sorry dude!

I did try to help you and if you follow my microphone advice you can still make some headway. Even if you eventually change the board, better microphones are for life.

Cheers! :)
 
NL5 said:
Man, you guys really now how to make a guy feel special.
Click to expand...

Don't feel too bad, when you get into recording, everybody buys a few "lemons", I have at LEAST 5000 dollars worth of stuff that I can't bring myself to sell yet because of how much I paid for it, happens to just about everyone on some level.
 
I know....I knew this wasn't going to have great pre's in it, I just didn't expect so much noise. I think some of it is the way I have it set, and the SM57's. The NTK is supposed to be a really good mic. It was in the top list of the hr mic faq.
It sounds great on the vocals, even thru my POS-1600. I think I will probably start with a decent stand alone pre, and use this as a line mixer. My band is all electric, and the guitar and bass go DI from are rigs and I don't think I'll need nuch gain on the drums.

I have another session on Saturday, hopefully I can get most of the hiss out.

Thanks for all the help.

NL5
 
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