miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Like you don't...... 
R
RAMI
Guest
What are you wearing right now?
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
1-900..............
Farview
Well-known member
Because you would find that he doesn't know the physics behind it. But he can still rebuild one for you.
I get what you are saying, but unfortunately, people who don't know any better will start quoting his nonsense all over the place and try to use that as a justification to do this, that or the other thing.Well....maybe he's giving a really generic, non-technical explanation, as he likes to view it.
There are differences between tubes and transistors, and I did find something that refers to the gap energy being quantified in a transistor, whereas, in a vacuum tube the flow of electrons is not impeded, which maintains frequencies better.....so maybe that's what he was really getting at...?
Hhis "lattice/fragile harmonics" comment does sound like sci-fi.......but like you said, maybe it's just how he formulated in his head and then worded it in the video.
IOW....people refer to audio in all kinds of odd terms....such as "warm" or what have you, which has ZERO fact in actual physics....yet everyone tends to understand what that means.
If electrons couldn't survive in a crystal lattice, it wouldn't conduct electricity. So it wouldn't work....at all.
The 'fragile harmonics' that he is talking about are created or enhanced by the tubes, not simply allowed to pass through unimpeded. If you don't believe me, listen to the DI of your guitar and see how many of these fragile harmonics are present. Then try to explain how they would survive the trip through a 12 inch speaker that effectively band-passes the signal the amp is sending it.
Farview
Well-known member
Again, the amps are awesome. What he said was embarrassingly ridiculous.You got it figured out!
I guess all the players who are willing to drop the big $$$ on a Dumble, are just buying a few special Rs & Cs....'cuz they don't know any better.
I know he started out tweaking Fenders and whatnot....but I think it's safe to say he was able to build amps that are very unique sounding, which involved a bit more than just "tweaking an R here, and a C there".
I mean, if it was as simple as that....Dumble amps would have no more value than a new Fender with a few tweaked Rs & Cs.
I'm not trying to sell you or anyone on Dumble amps....but I just don't get this out-of-hand minimizing and almost dismissive mocking, of the guy's abilty to build tube amps that set a serious high bar for other amp builders to aim for.
Farview
Well-known member
There is no magic involved in designing tube circuits. However, there are a lot of details that cumulatively can make a big difference in the sound. Simply using high quality parts with tight tolerances makes a huge difference. As does thoughtfully laid out part placement and wiring.You got it figured out!
I guess all the players who are willing to drop the big $$$ on a Dumble, are just buying a few special Rs & Cs....'cuz they don't know any better.
I know he started out tweaking Fenders and whatnot....but I think it's safe to say he was able to build amps that are very unique sounding, which involved a bit more than just "tweaking an R here, and a C there".
I mean, if it was as simple as that....Dumble amps would have no more value than a new Fender with a few tweaked Rs & Cs.
I'm not trying to sell you or anyone on Dumble amps....but I just don't get this out-of-hand minimizing and almost dismissive mocking, of the guy's abilty to build tube amps that set a serious high bar for other amp builders to aim for.
Have you ever wondered why no two Marshalls sound the same? The design isn't any different, obviously. The consistency of the parts used to make it vary enough to give you different results on each amp.
I know a guy who builds his own amps (Cruz Amps) All he has done is built a Marshall Plexi circuit with high quality parts and added an extra gain stage. It sounds awesome. All of his amps are variations on old marshalls and fenders. Sometimes he plays with the tone stacks... But there isn't any magic, there is just attention to detail that takes time and costs money.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Not that it really changes anything, and we agree that his "wording" was a bit abstract....but he actually said "fragile harmonics" don't survive well in a "crystal lattice"....he wasn't saying that about electrons, and the comment about harmonics/frequencies does have some correlation to the differences between how tubes and transistors deal with them, which is what I was referencing in my last post. IOW....there is some physics involved.
I don't think "magic" is really mentioned anywhere by anyone.
The only point was/is that Dumble made great amps. He figured out what circuits worked and what components did the best job, etc....he knew what he was doing......and a lot of builders have been copying his stuff because it was something special, something different than your run of the mill amps.
AFA as how people interpret what Dumble said about amps or how he built his amps, etc....well, that can't be controlled, but for anyone to simply mock the guy like he was some nut job who didn't know anything or that his amps were/are just about a few cheap mods...blah, blah, blah....I find rather lame....and that too is they type of nonsense you see repeated all over the place on forums.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
If you mean "building" as in "assembling"....yeah.....but if he was going to design a new transmission, then I think a little physics knowledge is needed.
Farview
Well-known member
OK, it's a shit metaphor. But even with design knowledge enough to design he best amp in the world, you still don't need to know the behavior of electrons flowing through the circuit. You only need to know what happens when you insert piece A into circuit B and how changing the value of piece A will affect the outcome.
You don't have to know all the math behind gravity to fall down the stairs and do it repeatedly.
You don't have to know all the math behind gravity to fall down the stairs and do it repeatedly.
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
What were we talking about? Oh yeah, summing mixers!
TBH, I think these things are great for certain applications. Just like dude's fancy amps, they are in fact usually carefully designed and assembled with tight tolerances and decent quality control. And any time you need to mix multiple line level sources which have their own volume controls there's no purer way to do it. It really was the best option for our "silent stage" rig right up until Jimmy sold me that US1641.
The last couple weeks I've had a few different conversations which are leading me to believe that small amounts of noise can have a subtle, subconscious effect on our perceptions. It's kinda like dither, or something, but I'm starting to wonder if this isn't the main thing that folks respond to when comparing analog and digital mixes.
But yeah, if your rendered mixes sound any different from what's coming out during playback, then there's got to be something seriously wrong.
TBH, I think these things are great for certain applications. Just like dude's fancy amps, they are in fact usually carefully designed and assembled with tight tolerances and decent quality control. And any time you need to mix multiple line level sources which have their own volume controls there's no purer way to do it. It really was the best option for our "silent stage" rig right up until Jimmy sold me that US1641.
The last couple weeks I've had a few different conversations which are leading me to believe that small amounts of noise can have a subtle, subconscious effect on our perceptions. It's kinda like dither, or something, but I'm starting to wonder if this isn't the main thing that folks respond to when comparing analog and digital mixes.
But yeah, if your rendered mixes sound any different from what's coming out during playback, then there's got to be something seriously wrong.
JimmyS1969
MOODerator
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
That's just a little weird...Is she still kicking? Give her a hug for me. I kinda miss that girl.
But yeah, it works every time I turn it on. I haven't done a lot of live gigs this past year, and it's a little too noisy for studio work, or at least noisier than my other options. We're going to start playing more soon, and I'm confident that it's up to the task.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I'm OK with that....I don't know who said that anyone really needed to know that?
The only point I was making is that if you go beyond the abstract way Dumble was explaining his view....there IS some validity in what he was saying if you interpret it as what I mentioned earlier....about gap energy being quantified in transistors VS free-flowing electrons in a tube vacuum.
IOW....it's not that far from what Dumble said....though agreed, his wording makes it sound weird.
Does he need to know quantum physics to design/build amps....?....not really, but my other point was that it's more than simply swapping out some resistors and caps. The guy had some knowledge....that's all I was saying.
Yeah....there is something going on, and that's one way of looking at it, as "noise"...or maybe better, "harmonic distortion".
I don't think it's odd that something like that CAN actually add positively to a mix and give it depth and texture, or even the perception of.
That's why I've always felt that digital transparency doesn't = "better sound".
Some folks feel that transparency = "high fidelity", and I can see why they would view it as such, but just because you get that signal purity with transparency....that may not really be the best case in all situations, and certainly in all the different types of music.
Yes, the "subconscious effect on our perceptions" is IMO a big thing in music appreciation. You might be able to prove that there's nothing really there,....but, if it's affecting perceptions, then it IS a part of what and how we hear.
J
Johnny Don't!
New member
While I prefer to play through completely tube amps most of the time (as opposed to completely solid state or tube preamp section w/solid state power section, as some manufacturers are doing these days), just because an amp is solid-state doesn't mean it sounds bad, and just because an amp is tube doesn't mean it sounds good.
For example, I just started a new project here in Chicago, and my lead guitarist is my best friend and former lead player in a band we founded years ago. He has been out of the loop for the past 4 years or so in terms of gear and technology, mainly because he started a family and has been concentrating on reproducing, not on the music world. He currently has a Dr. Z, one of the MAZ models, and while I really dig the tones he gets out of it, it's not very versatile, and a lead player in the type of band we're forming really needs to have access to a lot of different tones, from shimmery, sparkley cleans to screaming overdriven leads.
After testing a bunch of amps in tandem with his Dr. Z, we decided on the Roland Jazz Chorus, which is entirely solid-state. It sounds amazing, especially with a slew of pedals in front of it. It was Jeff Buckley's go-to amp, and he was no slouch when it came to chops OR tone.
Point is, tube & solid state both have their uses, just like a summing mixer and a full-on console both have their uses. All depends on what the end user is trying to achieve.
J
Johnny Don't!
New member
I agree with this 100%. I can't remember if it was The Police or U2, but one of them added a bunch of high-frequency (but in-key) noise to all the tracks on one of their albums using a frequency generator, and I've worked with quite a few guys who swear it makes a difference, even if only on a sub-conscious level. I'm still uncertain as to what effect it has but it's definitely there. If that makes any sense at all.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
You can get the same result with the right tube amp and a slew of pedals.....I mean, there are millions of players who do that.
If you need to use a lot of pedals, you can grab a basic clean sounding Fender tube amp and stick all kinds of stuff in front of it, and you're good to go.
Not sure what bunch of tube amps you tested....but Dr. Z amps have a tendancy to be unique in their tone.
I have a Dr. Z Route 66, and I wouldn't really call it a "versatile" amp, but it can do it's ftones exceptionally well, and there's nothing that sounds like it for what it does.
Point about SS amps is that they generally suck when it comes to anything non-clean, compared to most decent tube amps.
I'm really not that big on using/needing a bunch pedals to get a good tone. The amp has to provide the lion's share, and IMO, a tube amp will usually trump a SS in that regard.
BroKen_H
Re-member
So a summing mixer is used to sum, say 10 mikes on a drum set, into a stereo image that can come back to two strips on your regular console for eq/reverb/compression/gating etc. And the lack of all those added options keeps the noise down. Yes? You keep from summing the extra noise on 10 channels.
But, doesn't the extra signal path between your normal source (DAW) add noise or is it a completely digital chain?
But, doesn't the extra signal path between your normal source (DAW) add noise or is it a completely digital chain?
Farview
Well-known member
A summing mixer doesn't have mic inputs. Basically, people use these things when they are mixing. Instead of mixing in the computer, they send all the individual tracks, or stems, out of the interface and into the summing mixer. Then the stereo mix is recorded back into the daw.
In order to use one, you need an interface that has as many outputs as your summing mixer has inputs.
All the eq, compression and effects are done in the daw. The only this the summing mixer does is actually sum, or mix the signals together in the analog world.
All the individual volumes and automation is also done in the daw.
The reason to use a summing mixer instead of a normal mixer for this is because you are doing all the eq, etc... in the daw, so you don't need all that stuff to sum it. Because you don't habe it in the summing mixer, you can get a higher quality signal path for the money.
BroKen_H
Re-member
Okay! Thanks.