Suggestions for garage (rehearsal space)

[ACiDiC74]

Hey everyone, I am looking to treat my garage some so I'm not bothering the neighbors as much when my band is practicing. I've done lots of research and realize the the best solution would be to build a room inside the garage, and I may do that in the future, but it's not an immediate solution, so I was hoping there may be some other solutions (even if I can get the sound down by say, 25%, that would be great)

Here is some details (I can provide pictures if they will help)
- The garage detached (about 30-40 feet behind the house)
- It's 40x30 feet
- The ceiling is 10 feet high, but is only partially covered, with an "attic space" which goes to the roof (which is peaked in the middle)
- It has a concrete floor
- The lower 2-3 feet is some kind of cement or cinder block or something
- The rest of the wall is wood, with bare studs (and insulation, R-19 I believe) on the inside, vinyl siding on the outside
- There are 4 windows (1 on each of the shorter walls, and 2 on the back long wall)
- The front wall has a normal door along with 2 garage doors (which are about 9x9 feet each, some kind of metal)

As a test, I put a radio facing one of the walls, turned up the volume, and went outside. It was loudest in front of the garage doors (significantly louder than wall the radio was up against), so I am fairly sure the current weak link is the doors.

Is there any way to lessen the sound coming out of the doors. Maybe some kind of movable wall or something? If so, what would you suggest for material?

In addition, would finishing the walls with sheetrock drastically improve the situation? Would it be a good idea to put a different kind of insulation in before doing so?

Thanks for any help you can provide, it's greatly appreciated.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I was hoping there may be some other solutions (even if I can get the sound down by say, 25%, that would be great)

Hello ACiDiC74. Welcome to the forum. Ok, you are now facing one of the worst problems faced by HR enthusiasts. Unfortunately, the nature of "soundproofing" is not intuitive nor cheap. Especially in a building of this size. Transmission loss construction is frequency related. Let me explain.

First off, 25% isolation of what? 35db? 75db? 110db? Not only that, but at what frequency? Let me put it this way. If you measured broadband sound a flat reading of 60db SPL within your room on a SPL meter, and you needed this sound to be no more than 35dbA at the neighbors closest window, this means you would need 25db of isolation(Transmission Loss) at 3khz(mid frequency range) However, at 30hz, you would need Odb TL as you couldn't hear it in the room, let alone at the neighbors window due to the nature of human hearing. Without understanding this, trying to achieve a 25db TL at 30hz would be a total waste of time and money...even if you could achieve it.


but how close are your neighbors? If you attenuated a 100hz sound that was measured at 100db SPL at a sleeping neibors bedroom window 10 feet away, by 25% to 75db SPL, it would probably STILL knock the neighbor out of his bed However, if the neighbor were 40 feet away, and a 100hz sound were measured at 40db SPL, attenuating it by 25% may now bring it below the threshold of bothering him. Get my drift?

For instance, to increase the transmission loss in the building envelope 25% at 1000hz at 80db is far easier and cheaper than 50hz at 110db. In fact, to modify a building shell for a transmission loss IMPROVEMENT of 25% at 50hz(bass guitars can go down to 40hz) could require a major investment of time, and money. Which brings up your budget. What do you have to work with?
$1k? $5k...$100? Typically, to achieve a 25% improvement of TL at 3khz in a bulding this size, could run upwards of $4K-$5k depending on your skills, tools, knowlege, existing conditions etc. If you are contracting out the work, AND the planning(think permits) it may increase 100% or more. However, without knowing the scope of the actual conditions and requirements, this estimate is spittin in the wind.


What I'm saying here is....no one here can tell you EXACTLY what to do to achieve your goal. We can give you some hints and ideas..however, TL construction is detail demanding and is very unforgiving should you leave out one single detail. Furthermore, TL construction is very UN intutitive. For instance, you could spend $10k, and THEN discover you forgot to consider HVAC. Youi spent all that time and money, only to learn that you have now made your building envelope not only "soundproof"(relatively speaking), but AIRPROOF as well!!! Unfortuntely, musicians are no different than other humans..they like to breath. This means ventilation...which now means that you have to PENETRATE the building envelope that you so carefully and expensively SEALED!! arrrrrrrrrggggggggrrrrrrr!! This is but one example of the problems facing you when trying to improve the TL of your building.

Sooooooooo, for the moment, I suggest you do some reading. I'd also suggest with starting here:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4442
and then this..
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4745
now this...
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173

and finally, some real world experience in TL improvement:
Be forwarned though. This thread is NINTY SIX PAGES long!

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2921&hilit=garage

However, it may just give you the insights you need to make a few preliminary decisions. After reading the linked threads, come back and tell us your thoughts then.

 

[ACiDiC74]

Thanks for the reply, I have some of the links you sent me bookmarked already and am slowly going through them, some of the others I haven't seen yet, but will surely read them.

Maybe I phrased my post too generally (or maybe there just isn't a good answer). I do realize the best way of "sound proofing" the garage will require a big commitment of money and time, I was just wondering if there's any quick things I can do to make the situation better in the mean time (the 25% number was just thrown out there, I'd go for 5-10% improvement if it was either really cheap or something I can build on in the long run.

So, I guess my main questions right now are:
1. Will putting something between the band and the garage doors do anything to lower the volume of the noise outside the doors?
2. If I was to finish the inside walls with sheetrock, is there anything in particular I should do first or will the current R-19 insulation be as good as anything else?
3. Will there be any benfit of putting some kind of carpet down or will that make no difference to the sound level outside?

thanks again for any help

 

[StonedSunset]

novice advice

I have seen a type of drywall you should be able to order called "Suppress" it's a brand name product so is probably expensive, but it's worth a look. i saw it on Man-Caves when they built some kids a rehearsal space that wouldn't drive their mom crazy. but yes, even regular sheetrock will help the situation for sure. the biggest problem you have is that garage door, i too suffer from one. the best solution is to build a wall in front of it, think about it like this, if you build one wall inside, just some 2x4's with sheetrock on one side, about ten feet maybe even 15 feet inside the garage from the door put a cheap 20 dollar bedroom style door in it it should dampen the sound considerably while shrinking the space you need to insulate the exterior walls. that is my theory at least. the windows, though, i really dont know about them, maybe you could stuff them with insulation and drywall over them or at least two of them. all in all i think you can be creative and get it done cheaply. like i said im no expert but maybe someone will at least tell us how wrong my idea is.

 

[ACiDiC74]

Thanks for the advice. I was hanging out in the garage the other day thinking about it, and noticed that the garage doors were not insulated. I figured that would be a great first step. I don't how much it will help with sound, but it seems relatively cheap and easy to do, so why not.

The ceiling/roof is also not insulated, so maybe that will be step two, And then sheet rocking the walls.

After all that, if I still feel the need to isolate the sound further I'll start planning on new construction.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

And then sheet rocking the walls.

After all that, if I still feel the need to isolate the sound further I'll start planning on new construction.

um..

.I wouldn't do that if I were you. Trying to "soundproof" a building is not a "keep doing things till it gets better" proposition. If indeed, you will "start planning new construction", you will have already made the situation worse by adding sheetrock, which if you are talking about a "room within a room", now becomes a sencond leaf in a three leaf assembly, which is a no no. A three leaf assembly is worse than a two leaf. These would be the leafs.
Your exterior sheething is one leaf with an airgap in the stud cavity, and then the sheetrock, which is the second leaf. Then another airgap to the backside of the internal sheetrock which sheiths the interior of the room within a room, which is the THIRD leaf. Look at the difference between a two leaf and three leaf assembly TL. Even a double wall with FOUR LEAFS, is improved by REMOVING one leaf Remove both inner leafs and look at the difference.

Transmission loss(TL) success comes with good planning from the outset, not flybytheseat of your pants add-ons, which actually sets you up for either failure or demo work of the previous attempt....iie...you are wasting your time and money. It is FAR better to look at the problem NOW, with open eyes, GOOD INFORMATION, and a PLAN...even if you can't financially complete it in one phase. At least, you can ADD mass as you can afford it, in a COHERENT manner that is consistant with known TL construction techniques. OR..forget it untill you can afford to do it right at some point in the future. At least...thats my .02.

From what I understand of your problem, you have some decisions to make. ONE, either its a garage or it's a studio. You can't have both. This means...if you want a studio,(at least one with reasonable TL)you will need to build a wall in front of the garge door,(if it is a roll-up with folding panels) and sheith BOTH faces of this wall, as a garage door has so many gaps and very LITTLE MASS, that it might as well just be an opening. Since there are so many gaps(vented leaf), it is not considered a leaf. Therefore, to MATCH the rest of a completed TWO LEAF envelope, it must have TWO LEAVES, or it simply becomes a weak link...which is exactly what your partial ceiling/open to roof assembly is..that is if I understand your existing construction correctly.

and noticed that the garage doors were not insulated.so maybe that will be step two

You would be wasting your money, as insulation is not a substitute for MASS. And given the fact that garage doors are impossible to seal, unless you spend a lot on caulkcleating and are willing to ruin the door, which in itself has little mass in the first place, you are wasting time as well. What part of bite the bullet doesn't register?.

For all intents and purposes, partial solutions to TL construction meant to fight high SPL low frequency sound(think bass guitars/drums) are actually no solution at all. And frankly, since you haven't bothered to tell us how far the neighbors are, how loud you play, what the instrumentation is, what type of music, or even provided a plan/section of the building..or tell us what the exterior sheithing material is...etc etc
I'd submit no one here can tell you EXACTLY what to do. But I'll give it a shot, if you want. Let me know. However....
First off, if your sonic conditions are such that you were even considering a "room within a room", I'd also submit that partial solutions are a waste of time and money. AND, I'd also submit that building a "room in a room" is not only expensive, but should be approached with a healthy respect for the law, as building one WITHOUT permits is a setup for fines, loss of insurance should something happen, and in the worst case...code authority ORDER OF DEMO! ...should you get caught. I provided the links that explain why.

So, let me know if you want REAL solutions or not. Otherwise...good luck.
fitZ

 

[StonedSunset]

ok, so see, someone told us how what i said was wrong. your saying that if he just puts sheetrock up, even though it has a rating of like -3db or whatever, will only hurt because any walls that touch it will carry the sound anyway? it would be better to leave the exterior walls bare, and build new walls inside that in no way touch the outside, right? would you basically build them like exterior walls then? meaning seal both sides with plywood or drywall and fill them with insulation? this does make sense. but fitz...do you charge to explain yourself?

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

your saying that if he just puts sheetrock up, even though it has a rating of like -3db or whatever, will only hurt because any walls that touch it will carry the sound anyway

I said NO such thing. READ what I DID say. How did you extrapolate that from my words?

I'll say it again ....

If indeed, you will "start planning new construction", you will have already made the situation worse by adding sheetrock, which if you are talking about a "room within a room", now becomes a sencond leaf in a three leaf assembly, which is a no no. A three leaf assembly is worse than a two leaf.

Should he decide to build a "room within a room LATER, then adding sheetrock to the interior stud face NOW would be a mistake. UNLESS, you decide NOW, NOT to build a room within a room. THEN, yes, sheithing the building envelope walls with drywall is an important step. HOWEVER, there are many things to do first. Which I won't waste my breath describing UNTILL he makes a decision and asks for help. I already answered his first set of questions.

Furthermore, if he DOES want to build a room within a room later(either because of the previous work failure to provide enough TL or whatever), then there are things that you should NOT do now, as well as things that you SHOULD do now...like lining the exterior wall STUD CAVITIES with 2 layers of drywall against the exterier sheithing to beef up the exterior leaf. However, ANYTHING you do is only as good as any WEAK LINKS to the overall TL scheme. Like HOLLOW CORE DOORS OR, worse yet, a PARTIAL CEILING...which I really don't full understand his circumstances as he hasn't provided enough info OR any pics. Suffice to say again...with so little info..

I'd submit no one here can tell you EXACTLY what to do.

fitZ

 

[StonedSunset]

ok, i can understand that. i really don't think i'm stupid, im just having a hard time understanding what your saying, i think that's why people like acid and i are on these boards, to learn. so if he won't DIRECTLY ask you for help, i in turn will because what you wrote seems very interesting to me. what would he have to do for his next step if he didn't want to build a room within a room? what if he had no interior walls even up? nor even a floor poured yet? what would be the best next step for him? i can't even fathom what your answer will be. we both (acid and I) obviously are trying to learn the same thing. thank you.

 

[ACiDiC74]

Sorry, I don't always get a lot of time on the computer, I haven't been ignoring your questions, here are some of the answers:

My house is about 30-40 feet directly in front of the garage (the garage being in the back yard), I have a neighbor on each side of my house, say around 15 feet to the left/right. There's no one behind the garage.

My band consists of a drummer, bass player, two guitarists and a singer, we do blues based hard rock. We don't play exceptionally loud, but of course with a drummer it's hard to play quiet.

There's really no floorplan of the building, it's basically an open space with the dimension I mentioned in my first post (40x30 feet).

As for the ceiling, picture a building where you can see all the way up to the underside of the roof. Down the middle of the room there's a plywood "ceiling" that the former owner used as kind of an attic/storage area, the rest of the ceiling has sheets of 2 inch thick foam laying about. I don't know exactly what the purpose of this foam is. I can only guess it is supposed to be some kind of insulation, but looks like they never got around to doing anything with it (it's kind of just thrown about, with no real order to it)

I'll take some pictures of the garage this weekend so it's easier to see what I'm talking about.

That's kind of interesting about the whole "leaf" discussion. I never would have guessed that sheet rocking the wall could be a negative thing when it comes to blocking sound.

I really don't know if I'm going to build a room inside the garage yet. If I do, it will only be a room big enough to hold the band, I won't be turning the entire garage into a band area.

The band will be over this weekend, if my wife is around I'm going to have her walk around outside while we're playing and get a better idea how far the sound is traveling in each direction.

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain things to me, it's giving me a lot to think about.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

That's kind of interesting about the whole "leaf" discussion. I never would have guessed that sheet rocking the wall could be a negative thing when it comes to blocking sound.

I never said that. What I DID say was this. IF, down the road you plan on building a room within a room, then installing sheetrock on the interior of the building envelope would THEN become a negative.(THREE LEAF SYNDROME) NOT if you just sheetrock the interior and leave it at that.

 

[ACiDiC74]

I never said that. What I DID say was this. IF, down the road you plan on building a room within a room, then installing sheetrock on the interior of the building envelope would THEN become a negative.(THREE LEAF SYNDROME) NOT if you just sheetrock the interior and leave it at that.

Don't worry, I understood what you were saying. I meant I didn't know sheetrock could be a negative in any situation (not that it's always a negative)

 

[BushmasterM4]

Get a db meter at Radio Shack. Find out what your city ordinance is on sound levels. Have your band play in the garage, as it is now. Test the levels and see how much reduction you need to comply with your local laws. You might be surprised at how loud you are allowed to be. I built a garage/studio and utilized, one sheet of drywall, 2x4 with r-19 insulation stuffed in it, then 2" of air space, then the outside wall (osb with wrap and vinyl siding). I can get beyond concert levels and the levels outside are negligable. So dont go hog wild on double walls and isolation clips and other techniques until you know where you stand. The dollars can add up quick. Its a home studio, not a million dollar studio.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Get a db meter at Radio Shack. Find out what your city ordinance is on sound levels. Have your band play in the garage, as it is now. Test the levels and see how much reduction you need to comply with your local laws.

Thumbs up to Bushmaster. Best reply I've heard in a long time. This is how you make sense of "soundproofing and the law". The problem is figuring out the dynamics of materials and techniques that will SOLVE the equasion.

ie...

how much reduction you need to comply with your local laws.

That is the REAL deal. Think TRANSMISSION LOSS. Once you understand the equasion, then its only a matter of proving that you can build it while complying with local codes to BID(Building inspection department) before you implement it. Not an easy task.

 

[chugheshc]

+10 on measuring, +20 on talking to the neighbors.
Go ahead and talk to your neighbors on each side to let them know what you are doing - you might find out that they don't mind or that they are extremely sensitive to noise - either way, they will probably appreciate the fact that you are concerned enough to let them know what is going on.
Much better than having the law show up after you have gone to some trouble to attenuate noise coming from your space.
Biggest suggestion I can make is spend some considerable time doing research before you lift a finger or spend any money - give yourself a reasonable goal, say 6 - 12 months of research and 6 months of construction. This way, you will know what you are doing before you waste any time or money, and you can bank a little bit, and look for good deals on materials you might need.
This was how I approached things, and I still made some mistakes!
I'll also pitch this idea - leave your space open, don't try to chop it up.
30 X 40 is a generous project studio size, and you can start to get a little room feel in a space that big. Plus, by the time you have all the crap in there for full band rehearsal, recording, it will still have some decent room in it.
my two cents,
Cheers
C>

 

[ACiDiC74]

As promised, I took some pictures of the garage this afternoon. I uploaded them here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/83277412@N00/sets/72157621659054966/detail/

Thanks for the added comments BushmasterM4 and chugheshc.

I did go and pick up a sound meter earlier. The band will be over tomorrow, so I'm going to have the wife take some measurements while we're playing.

 

[BushmasterM4]

The garage doors will be the biggest problem. I have a double pane window in mine and thats where most of my sound leakeage is, and its not so bad. Well under limits. Would be to your advantage to remove them and block it up a few and wall it up. I dont see in any posts where you are located. If you are in winter weather land then it will make it easier to heat if you get rid of them. Selling the doors would more than pay for the walls. Also r-38 in the ceilings too.

 

[ACiDiC74]

Yeah, I believe those doors are the main issue as well. If I could do something about them I feel the sound would be much quieter outside the garage. I was hoping there would be something I could do that would not involve getting rid of the doors permanently since they do come in handy sometimes, but I guess I just have to make the decision as to what I want (big doors or a quieter garage)

I live Pennsylvania, so winters could be an issue, but so far the winters have been very mild since we've moved in, so it hasn't been a problem yet (of course the band is new, so I haven't had a reason to hang out in the garage during the winter much either)

thanks

 

[BushmasterM4]

Im in Ohio, so our weather is close to the same. I heat my studio in the winter with two 8' 220volt electric baseboard heaters. I have the thermostats on the lowest settings and it stays nice and warm. The electric cost is very low. The doors will be a big issue with heat. Even though they are the insulated variety (the r value is small), you will have leakeage at the top, sides and bottom.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Yeah, I believe those doors are the main issue as well. If I could do something about them I feel the sound would be much quieter outside the garage. I was hoping there would be something I could do that would not involve getting rid of the doors permanently since they do come in handy sometimes, but I guess I just have to make the decision as to what I want (big doors or a quieter garage)

I didn't see any driveway in front of the doors. No matter, If it were me, this is what I'd do(these aren't finished but I think you'll get my drift. And theres more. Like putting 2 layers of drywall between the stud cavities(and caulking) before drywalling. And lots more. Of course, only if you're NOT planning on a room within a room, which I highly discourage.

Note, these are typical. They don't show all the details, nor insulation, nor the drywall on the door side...etc etc. Just to give you an idea of what it takes to REALLY do something about these doors. Or, you could remove them and fill in the openings. Which would be much cheaper, but you'd loose the doors. Furthermore, you mentioned partitioning off a space seperate from the entire room, which would negate the need for this wall. But I thought I'd show it to you in just in case.
fitZ