Stupid Questions Because I'm Stupid (I'll never be smart)

[Snowman999]

While many people here wouldn't be able to, I can and have done this. I have no issue mixing Elvis Presley with Hank Williams Sr with The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Janis Joplin, Hendrix, Zeppelin, The Carpenters, The New York Dolls, Sia, and pretty much any other band that I listen to. I can play them back to back. I hear the difference in a 50s to a 2000 recording. But, they're still viable for listening and radio play. A 50s recording doesn't sound lesser than a 2026 recording. It's all about the song.

If you have the bottom of the barrel DAW with the minimal effects that come with the package, can you mix to a level that is equal to studio recordings? For instance: If you only have one reverb, that can be applied to each track with different parameters, you'd be limited, but it could work, right?

Back in the early days of The Beatles, didn't they record like 4 tracks, that was mixed down to two, then overdubs mixed into that, so on and so on till the song was complete? I would think even the most basic DAW should be able to record cleaner than that, and be able to mix using the most basic effects to an even higher standard. Of course the brilliance of The Beatles recordings isn't just the recording, it's the songs, the writers, performers and their individual parts. But, shouldn't a person who can record on a DAW with the proper knowledge (the most important part) be able to mix tracks to create a version that could be played next to a Beatles song and not sound like a bad demo?

I see hundreds of effects, and just think, they didn't have this when music was at it's height. I watched an interview Rick Beato did with Eddie Kramer who engineered Hendrix, worked with Zeppelin. He was telling amazing stories, and they had not even a fraction of the effects that are available today. Yet with all the options, there are no Zeppelins or Hendrix's anymore.

 

[TalismanRich]

I disagree. The Beatles worked the way they did because that's the equipment that they had. There was no 24 track in 1963. Sgt Pepper started with 4 tracks, they bounced tracks around, tracked multiple people live to optimize space. Prior to that, you set everyone up in the studio, hit the record button and that was it! The orchestra played, Sinatra sang, and it printed to tape. Done and done. If you screwed up, everyone started over!

There are folks out there today who are putting out excellent music, I think every bit as good as Zepplin. Unfortunately, it is not the "style" that sells to the under 30 crowd. Warren Haynes and Govt Mule are putting out lots of stuff. Tedeschi Trucks do the same. What's more remarkable is that you can go to a concert and a few days later download the concert produced and mixed ready for burning to CD for something like $12. The sound is excellent, going from the mic to a remote mixing board and stored digitally. You never got that from Led Zepplin or Hendrix. Unless they put out a live record, you probably got a crappy cassette recording.

Gov't Mule - Stream Live and Download Concerts

Listen to live music straight from Gov't Mule. Check the archive for some of your favorite concerts and download them now!

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I think the lack of quality for most home DAW recordings is more due to inexperience of the person recording. In the 50s, 60s,70s you didn't have a person in their bedroom putting out records. You had a group of musicians, an engineer in a different room listening to the feed, a producer calling the shots. Today you have someone in their bedroom with a pair of headphones trying to capture something by recording, listening back, maybe changing a few things, over and over. Eventually they either get lucky and get it right, or finally just get it "close enough, I'll fix it in the mix".


You wouldn't find Jimi sitting in the control room trying to adjust the sound of his amp, mic placement etc. That would be Kramer's job. Shania Twain didn't have to worry if she had a good sound for her vocal, that was Mutt Lange's job. They might come in afterwards and critique, but the heavy lifting would be done. I dare say that if you sat Mutt Lange down in a studio with just Reaper and the plugins that come with it, fed by a Focusrite Clarett 8 interface and an Octopre, he could make you a studio quality album.

When Snowman and the Blizzards cut their next album, will you have a producer with 10 or 20 yrs of experience sitting in a control room listening to your mic feed, telling the studio lackey to move the mic on the Leslie?

 

[Steenamaroo]

But, they're still viable for listening and radio play. A 50s recording doesn't sound lesser than a 2026 recording. It's all about the song.

Yes, I'd argue they're viable because the song and the performance trumps all.
It was always the way. We have so many examples of records that don't sound great, by modern technical standards,
but they're still some of the greatest records ever made because of what they captured.
This is, essentially, the bottom line - You're capturing something and that has to be worth capturing.
The more worthwhile that thing is, the less important the medium and processes become, in my opinion.

I would think even the most basic DAW should be able to record cleaner than that, and be able to mix using the most basic effects to an even higher standard.

Yes, no doubt.
We aren't bound by the old limitations - Track counts, signal to noise, hardware effects instance limitations.
We can record as much as we want, as clean as we want, with as many effects as we want,
and maybe that just underlines that audio fidelity isn't the be all and end all.
All of that gear we have that out-specs what they used in the 50s or 60s is just a constant reminder that we aren't Bob Dylan, or Kurt Cobain, or Willie Nelson, or the Stones, or...whoever you look up to.
We can't write like them and we can't perform like them.

It's the same deal in other areas.
A grainy film image that captures something extremely significant is never going to be criticised for it's technical specs.

We're seeing a similar thing in gaming now, I think, where there's growing dissatisfaction with the quality of the (triple A) product,
even though the presentation improves with each generation.
So many people are at a point where I bet they'd accept 2000s era graphics in exchange for a good story with relatable, well-written, characters and <gasp>
the occasional risk being taken.

TL/DR. We're all trying to capture something.
The medium is, and always was, less important that the subject.

 

[TalismanRich]

Yes, I'd argue they're viable because the song and the performance trumps all.
It was always the way. We have so many examples of records that don't sound great, by modern technical standards,
but they're still some of the greatest records ever made because of what they captured.
This is, essentially, the bottom line - You're capturing something and that has to be worth capturing.
The more worthwhile that thing is, the less important the medium and processes become, in my opinion.

This has always been one of my favorite examples of this. The sound, even by 1964 standards, is really pretty dreadful. Distorted voices, distorted piano, distorted drums. I thought it was just a lousy pressing, but no, that's what they released. It hit #1 in the UK, top 10 in the US and Canada.



FWIW, they had better sound for the other songs on the album, but it wasn't great. They did have a different producer for the rest of the album which probably accounts for the change.

Their next release was worlds better, and stands up even today.

 

[TAE]

If you have the bottom of the barrel DAW with the minimal effects that come with the package, can you mix to a level that is equal to studio recordings?

Yes and no. Truth is with a $100 interface, an average pc and audacity ( free) or some other almost FREE daw like reaper or whatever you can have audio recordings that are on par audibly with anything that was done prior to digital recording.

Recording is an art as is playing instruments, writing lyrics and songs. Garbage in garbage out. If you take10 people who are not artist / painters. Give them each the same canvas, brushes and paints and ask them to paint the same subject. Lets say a vase full of flowers sitting on a table. You will get 10 versions and which one is "best" is subjective but as a group they can vote and one will be the best and one will be the worst.

Recording is the same...For us older cats zipping through all the prompts and key strokes to get to the cheese can be daunting but with persistence we can get there.

A sub par performance or song can not be made great with any recording set up....But audibly it can be recorded and the audio itself is far superior to yesteryears analog recordings..but a sucky song is a sucky song no matter how good the recording is.

As far as no Zeplins or Hendrix's today is more about music evolution... We're old so we know Jimi and Zep were bad ass when we were kids...Todays kids are into bad ass that we don't get cause we're yesterdays news. Our Hendrix and Zep were artist like Sinatra and Louie Armstrong for our parents and those ships have sailed.

 

[Papanate]

When Snowman and the Blizzards cut their next album, will you have a producer with 10 or 20 yrs of experience sitting in a control room listening to your mic feed, telling the studio lackey to move the mic on the Leslie?

Back in the day the Producer usually didn't tell studio techs to touch things - that was the engineers job - it wasn’t until about 1975 or so that producers would put hands on things - but even then not so much - the engineers and assistants made the moves - but that changed with people like Mutt Lange who became integral parts of the band and made parts up and recorded them - but even with Lange he relied on Mike Shipley his engineer to do the work - then in the 90s we started getting the super producers who along with an engineer or two - would actually do the work in the studio - up to now where the roles are completely blurred - everybody thinks their an engineer and producer -
and most are as you say fumlbing around till they either get lucky or tired.

 

[Papanate]

..Todays kids are into bad ass that we don't get cause we're yesterdays news. Our Hendrix and Zep were artist like Sinatra and Louie Armstrong for our parents and those ships have sailed.

Kids today are into people like Sinatra and Armstrong as much as they are into people like Hendrix or Led Zeppelin as much as people like Sza or Kendrick Lamar - my daughter surprises me all the time she’ll be playing a song from the 60s - and knows it - not just listening to it - but one thing I’ve noticed - not many (if not all) are into 1950s - even Elvis gets short shrifted - there is something about the sound they don’t get on with.

 

[TalismanRich]

One of the local morning news anchors once told the story that she was driving some of her kids one day and a new song came on the radio. She started singing it and and the kids were going "how do you know this, it just came out?" She had to explain that it was actually a song from many years ago that was redone.

I was shocked when my son, who is now in his mid 30s, asked me if I had any Steely Dan. He also liked my Eric Clapton DVD of One More Car, One More Rider. Since then he's put several of my CDs in his collection.

On the other hand, I know lots of kids who hardly know anyone after 2000 unless it's a famous Hip Hop person, like SnoopDog who stays in the spotlight.

 

[TalismanRich]

Back in the day the Producer usually didn't tell studio techs to touch things - that was the engineers job - it wasn’t until about 1975 or so that producers would put hands on things - but even then not so much - the engineers and assistants made the moves - but that changed with people like Mutt Lange who became integral parts of the band and made parts up and recorded them - but even with Lange he relied on Mike Shipley his engineer to do the work - then in the 90s we started getting the super producers who along with an engineer or two - would actually do the work in the studio - up to now where the roles are completely blurred - everybody thinks their an engineer and producer -
and most are as you say fumlbing around till they either get lucky or tired.

But today, T-Rich the producer tells T-Rich the engineer the acoustic is too boomy, so T-Rich the Engineer tells T-Rich the lackey to move the mic on T-Rich's guitar, then T-Rich the engineer tweaks the input, but in that time T-Rich the guitarist has moved and the mic setup isn't right, so T-Rich the lackey has to move it again. After a few takes, T-Rich the guitarist has to go to the green room where T-Rich the caterer has some Cokes and chips.

The nice part is that T-Rich is getting scale for at least 5 different jobs!!!

 

[PorterhouseMusic]

It's interesting, isn't it. Everything happens (happened) in context. My self contained Tascam DP-32SD is *incredibly* powerful by 1964 standards. It doesn't even make sense to wonder what George Martin and The Beatles would have done with just that. The unique limitations (<--- one way to put it) of the day... shaped what they created, what emerged.

 

[TAE]

My daughters ( both in their 40's) dig all the music I dig...because I weaned them on it...My 6 grandkids who range from 8 to 21 not so much...two of my grand sons are learning to play instruments...drums and bass so they are forced to learn some of the more old fashioned rock music. My 15 year old grand daughter is in to Benson Boone and such ( who is quite a talent in his own right) I have tried to turn her onto songs I love but it's just not her bag..She may evolve I can hope...The 21 year old grand daughter is kind of into the pop stuff and not at all interested in anything pre 2000.

 

[TAE]

But today, T-Rich the producer tells T-Rich the engineer the acoustic is too boomy, so T-Rich the Engineer tells T-Rich the lackey to move the mic on T-Rich's guitar, then T-Rich the engineer tweaks the input, but in that time T-Rich the guitarist has moved and the mic setup isn't right, so T-Rich the lackey has to move it again. After a few takes, T-Rich the guitarist has to go to the green room where T-Rich the caterer has some Cokes and chips.

The nice part is that T-Rich is getting scale for at least 5 different jobs!!!

It is amazingly cool the power and tools we have at our command today.....Goal this year is to get to pushing that red button and cranking out tunes and publishing them myself...maybe even publish other folks that I choose to "give a lift" There is this kid at the local Sam's club who shows up busking quite often just an acoustic and him no amp...The guy has some cool vibe ,great LOUD pipes and I think he has something going on far beyond busking at Sam's club. He's on my radar once I get the studio up and rolling.

 

[TalismanRich]

Lately, the fellows I jam with have thrown out some songs to learn. I found a great way to learn a song is to get a drum track off the internet, and then record the song. That makes me learn the vocal, learn the guitar part, rearrange if it sounds lacking. I've done 3 of them in the last couple weeks.

A week ago, I worked this one up for our Wednesday afternoon jam. 50 Ways To Leave Your Lover

 

[TAE]

Kids today are into people like Sinatra and Armstrong as much as they are into people like Hendrix or Led Zeppelin

I really liked Sinatra and all the crooners and cats like Armstrong but when I went to the record store with my limited cash flow, my money was spent on current artist of the time.

I think that it is the same today with the youth of this generation...except they're currency is time not money. I would venture to speculate it is spent far more on streaming current music than yesterdays greats.

 

[Papanate]

I would venture to speculate it is spent far more on streaming current music than yesterdays greats.

Well my daughters and friends stream everything - they might be an anomaly - At her University the Students were into everything - it was a Music school - so maybe that had something to do with it?

 

[TAE]

Well my daughters and friends stream everything - they might be an anomaly - At her University the Students were into everything - it was a Music school - so maybe that had something to do with it?

How old are your daughters Nate?

 

[TalismanRich]

My money bought Beach Boys, Johnny Rivers, and the like. But my dad had everything from Floyd Cramer to Mitch Miller, Doris Day, Everly Bros, Teresa Brewer, Nat King Cole, Perry Como, Coasters. Mom especially loved Floyd Cramer, and Duane Eddy's Twangy Guitar and Silky Strings.

 

[TAE]

My money bought Beach Boys, Johnny Rivers, and the like. But my dad had everything from Floyd Cramer to Mitch Miller, Doris Day, Everly Bros, Teresa Brewer, Nat King Cole, Perry Como, Coasters. Mom especially loved Floyd Cramer, and Duane Eddy's Twangy Guitar and Silky Strings.

I had 3 older sisters that were born in the cradle of Rock n roll...My youngest is 8 years older than me the oldest is 13 years older. I was exposed to KFWB channel 98 AM day in day out every day. Those girls could sing some sweet harmonies too! Then the youngest got into Jan and Dean she was a crazy teenage fan with her room plastered with their pictures,,,until this band from England played on the Ed Sullivan show,,,Bye Bye Jan and Dean enter Beatlemania. I was @ 9 and thought they we weirdos....until I found myself really digging I wanna hold your hand one day...the rest is misery.

 

[TalismanRich]

She sounds a lot like Lizzy, who lived across the street, bought a Beatles wig, all the magazines, and every 45 they put out that year.

 

[TalismanRich]

I just got the list of songs that might be part of the next jam.

Wildest Dreams -- Moody Blues
Woman - Free
No Matter What - Badfinger
Shooting Star - Bad Company
The Last Time -- Stones
Every Picture Tells a Story - Rod Stewart

I've got a few weeks. I'll be in Alabama the first week of June. I already know a couple of them.