stupid question..

[dumass]

hey...i'm using cakewalk sonar xl and i have a m-audio delta sound card.

for some reason, when i'm mixing drums, i can't get it as loud as like professionally done cd's, only when i push the levels past 0db, into the red zone...is that ok? so far when i do that, i dont get any clipping...so is it safe to do this..?

 

[proaudioguy]

mastering

worry abou the mix now, and mastering will bring up the volume.

 

[wjgypsy]

i think he's just talking about the drum tracks. Mastering can bring up the level or "Normilize" it, but it's better to fix it in the mix, insted of the mastering process. Mastering is just the stage were a project is prepaired for public or home use. But mastering is very important, and can fix surtain "ruff" mixes but that is not what the're there for. As long as the meter is not staying at the top all the time, i think you'll be ok. Do you use compression? that might help get the level up a little.

 

[sonicpaint]

Normalizing doesn't alway raise the volume.

Many people have used this word "Normalize". I'm not sure if they understand what the process of "Normalizing is but it's always used in the wrong context.

Some can correct me if I'm wrong but no real mastering engineer will ever use "normalize" on a file. Normalizing is basically useless. All it does is take the highest point or peak of a song and raise it until it hit's Odb. I know there are people reading this and saying "he just proved me right? lol... Well that's only half of it. If in that file there is a spike let's say, and it's very short maybe even milliseconds(and this does happen more often then you'd think) that is above the Odb mark, then the "normalizing will actually work in the other direction. If that spike is 3db above, then your file will be lowered by that much. The bigger the value the more severe the results.

I hope this clears things up a bit and if i'm wrong in any way I'm sure the good old people on the board will let me know .....right? I hope so because that how this whole thing works. We are all learning from the knowledge of everyone on the board. So speak up if you have something to add or correct me on.

until next time,
sonicpaint

 

[jake-owa]

Close sonicpaint, there is no 'above' in digital recording. So there would never be attenuation caused by normalizing. While the snare hit may have gone 3 dB above zero there is no recording of the level above zero, it's just a square wave at zero for the duration of the overage.

A real mastering engineer may well normalize (however rare) if the file in question is compressed well and has peaks under the desired level. This would take place after any EQ or gain (solid state or tube) had been added to the track.

Normalizing is fine for quiet audio mixes but if it is too quiet you may want to look at what is wrong in the mix process rather than a simple normalizing.

 

[sonicpaint]

I don't know about that.

I know that the rule of thumb is that there is nothing above 0db in audio. I also know that the wave gets cut off at zero when approached (just like when using a limiter) but there are signals that are considered to be over 0 dbfs whether you believe it or not.

When your recording and you see your meters clip then that's a signal that when over 0 db. Just because the wave is chopped at the 0 db mark doesn't mean there isn't anything over O dbfs. I thought I would go back to my notes to find something from a credible source to help people understand what I'm trying to get across. This quote is from Bob Katz a well know and respected audio mastering engineer and winner of may awards for his mastering(if you didn't know already).

" Most mastering engineers have discovered that you can often hit 0 dbfs on a digital PPM without hearing any distortion. In fact, a single peak at 0 dbfs is not described as an over level. Over levels are measured with over counters."


I hope this clears things up.
sonicpaint

 

[jake-owa]

Dude, clears what up?
The quote you pasted says that not all overs cause distortion. I did not dispute that.

If you don't believe me try it. You will not ever decrease volume by normalizing unless you set the normalization to negative something.

The quote simply aludes to an over meter that mastering engineers use.

I hope that clears things up.

 

[jake-owa]

"I know that the rule of thumb is that there is nothing above 0db in audio."
Don't you mean DIGITAL audio?

 

[sonicpaint]

whatever dude.

Too much typing with no real reason. When your clipping thats called and "over". So there is an above 0dbfs. I don't know how much simpler I can put it.

later
sonicpaint

 

[sonicpaint]

I didn't realize I had to spell it out for you!

"I know that the rule of thumb is that there is nothing above 0db in audio."
Don't you mean DIGITAL audio?

I assumed you knew that's what we were talking about. Your just being stupid about it now. whatever....your right I'm the idiot and your the smart one. Sorry maybe I shouldn't be able to be part of these boards because I'm so inadequate to help people with some "DIGITAL" recording snags they might have.
Sooooooooooooooooooooooooory.

 

[jake-owa]

Whoa dude, where'd that come from?

Easy big fella, no need for the insults. You said something untrue about the "rule of thumb" so I tried to clarify for you. I am not trying to make you out to be anything, you are doing a fine job on your own.

"Too much typing with no real reason."
Funny, I wasw just thinking the same about you..

The term over is used in digital because you know it went over but without an over meter there is no way of knowing how much. Did you try to normalize a clipping track to 0 dB? Am I right? Then please apologize for the meltdown, that was uncalled for.

 

[giles117]

Jake and Sonic, you guys are hilarious.

Anyway, I am on Jakes side with this one sonic.

If 0 in digital is max, you cannot go "over" technically.

What they call over is when the input signal is past what the convertors were designed to convert, however out will never be OVER 0db

And the issue is the out, not the in.

When normalizing, it's already in and processed, you are just bringing up what the out sees.

Hope this was not oversimplistic, but it is what it is.

Bryan Giles

Of course during the reign of the ADAT, if I recall correctly, their 0db meter was more like a -3db meter.

Just more lies the manufacturers feed us.