Studio Projects C1 vs. B3

  • Thread starter Thread starter Julia
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You are correct about the roland unit having 24bit converters and probably top of the line, but that has nothing to do with the preamps. The preamps are a major part of the sound however dont get anything that you dont know. Buy the two mikes either two B1s or a B1 and B3 combination, see how it sounds. If it works for you, dont worry about it. If it doesnt work for you, consider buying a low cost preamp to help out. The m-audio Audio Buddy is a good preamp for the money and you should be able to get it pretty cheap used.

To explain more of the 24bit ADT converters, he is talking about the Analogue to Digital converters (dont know what the T is, a typo maybe?) and is usually termed as 24 bit A/D or D/A. When the analogue sound from the mic and preamp comes to the recorder, it needs to be put into a digital format to be put onto the hard disk, thus this is where the 24 bit A/D converters come in. The better the converters the less the sound changes when it it put into digital. So yes, you recorder will do a good job at doing this.

However, what we are concerned about is the analogue preamp at the beginning of the chain, before the 24 A/D converters are used.

You quality of your sound will only be as good as the weakest link in your chain.

But like i said, try it out without buying a seperate preamp. If you like it and its working, dont worry about buying anything else until you feel you need it.

Danny
 
2 different mics offer you more flexibility with the ability to still have a stereo pair. 2 of the same mic offers you less flexibility. If you can't afford the B3 then get 2 B1s.

There is also another way of doing stereo micing called M/S where you use one mic in a figure 8 pattern pointing sideways and another cardoid pointing straight ahead. Having the B3 would give you this capability.
 
Which leads me to ask...

Thanks, Danny and TexasRoadKill (ewwww)...

Two things occur to me when reading your posts:

1.) Regarding the pre-amp situation...(thanks SO much for taking the time to thoroughly explain all of that to me, Danny)...but it makes me wonder what's what with Roland's tech support! How could they not know that their response re: top-of-the-line 24-bit converters has nothing whatever to do with pre-amps? Grrrr...

2.) Tex, I guess I still can't see yet how I'd use the additional features of the B3. Is the only difference between the B1 and the B3 the fact that the B3 is more versatile due to its ability to offer omni, cardioid, and figure 8 modes? If so, and if I should be recording using cardioid mode as you've suggested, I guess my question is how/when I'd ever need omni or figure 8 (though I do appreciate your explanation of using figure 8 for recording in stereo.) It seems as though I could record in stereo with two cardioid mics as well, yes?

I apologize for my confusion. This has to be frustrating for those in the know.

Thanks yet again.

Julia
 
Julia,

One of the main advantages of the Figure 8 pattern is you can get the majority of the advantages of recording with a Cardioid pattern (proximity effect, narrower pickup pattern, off axis anomolies, etc.) with a majority of the benefits of an Omnidirectional pattern (the bleed from other instruments, the sound of the source in a room, etc.).

You will find that the rear side of a microphone in Figure 8 pattern is 180 degrees out of polarity with the front side. For this reason, it often sounds different from the front side of a mic in Figure 8 pattern. You can use this to tailor the tone of the microphone to best fit the sound you are recording. That, and most multi-pattern mics will often be used for things like vocals in Cardiod pattern... which means that after a while, the front diaphragm of the capsule [in a condenser mic] will see more spit, humidity and dirt than the rear diaphragm... this too will cause the rear to sound different from the front.

Another common technique that employs a Figure 8 microphone like the B3 or C3 is called "Mid-Side" [MS]. With this technique you use a mic (B1) in Cardiod that faces the sound source, and a microphone(B3) in Figure 8 pattern aimed at a 90 degree angle to the sound source. From there, you take the output of the Figure 8 mic and bring it up on two channels at equal volume... then flip one of the channels 180 degrees out of polarity with the other. The net result is a wide stereo image when in stereo, and in mono, the two channels that are 180 degrees out of polarity will 100% cancel... meaning that they won't eat up space in your mono

Maybe all of this is too technical for you, but if you can swing the B3 and B1, you will appreciate it later as you gain more knowledge. If you cant swing it all now, get the B3 because it give you more options to the methods that you can record with.

Alan Hyatt
PMI Audio Group
 
To Mr. Hyatt...

Thank you very much, Mr. Hyatt. You are right...that is way too technical for me at this point. I read it over three times and have yet to comprehend it. :) SEriously, I thank you very much for taking the time. I will study that as best I am able.

May I ask you specifically for your recommendation based on the fact that I need to record a large number of children who will be singing to pre-recorded music?

Here's the thing: I work with 175 children total. In the Christmas production, which is what I'm planning currently, each class or group will have its own song, thus the need to record anywhere from 20 to 40 children at any given time.

I'm hemming and hawing over the necessity of headphoning 40 children at once, because I've been cautioned against recording them while they sing to pre-recorded orchestration playing through monitors due to bad echo, bad quality recording, etc.

I'm willing to outfit all the kids with headphones if it will work that way, (though I have my personal doubts about small children...ages 4-11...singing in tune with phones fully covering their little ears!) But I need to know the least expensive way to get decent quality, because the result will become a CD for very minor distribution.

I will record with a Boss BR-1180CD. I can record only two channels at one time.

Those are the facts.

There was one gentleman who had suggested perhaps encircling a single omni mic with children and letting them sing.

Another suggested two mics, one at left, one at right, raised up a bit...in cardioid mode...for a nice "stereo image."

I'd try the B1 and the B3, but judging from my read of your most recent post, I'm not sure I understand enough to make good use of the B3, unless I just buy one and use it in omni.

The reason, by the way, I was so interested in your C1 mic, was that I have five WONDERFUL child soloists whom I wish to offer the best recording I can. I thought, due to the reviews, that mic would be the best for recording the soloists, whom I will be recording alone, in a teeny tiny home studio setting. :)

Thank you so much for your kindness in taking the time to respond to my questions. I think it's really wonderful that you are guiding people on a message board. Makes me want to throw out all the other ideas I was given as good mics to consider, and stick strictly, forever and ever, with Studio Projects mics for every setting. :)

Julia
 
I think you're answering your own questions. :D

Seriously, though, it looks like you've got the gist. From here, whatever Alan or anyone else tells you is the best way to go is more a matter of taste -- aside from a few basic guidelines, there is no "better" or "best" technique.

If you really want a stereo image, then pick up a couple B1's, spread 'em out, and pan them 3 and 9, or hard right-and-left at mixdown . . . and use one of the B1's for the solo voice.

If mono on the ensemble is okay with you, then pick a Behringer ecm8000 omni-directional mic and use that to mic the group ($35), and use the money you save on getting a better mic for the solo voice (a C1 perhaps?).

Don't overanalyze it, and don't try to tackle anything more complicated than what you are comfortable with at this time.

My suggestion on the whole headphone thing? Junk it. Throw it in the scrapheap. This is the way to go: have a piano player in front of the kids . . . with just the piano player wearing the phones, playing along with the pre-recorded stuff. And have the kids follow the pianist. If the pianist is worth his/her salt, then it shouldn't hurt anything having the piano bleeding in the mics. Hell, if he/she is good, then mic the pianist, too!

. . . But on second thought, that would probably spur yet another big, long "Best way to mic a piano player with a bunch of kids" thread. Invevitably. :D :D And we wouldn't want that, would we? :D

If it were me, this is what I'd do. I just wouldn't want the hassle of all those headphone chords running all over the place, getting all tangled. Plus, I can imagine all the headphone bleed you'd probably get. That might sound kinda' funky. :D And who knows how many of them would make it back to you undamaged?
 
That's a really good suggestion, providing you can find a skilled enough piano player who can stay in sync with the tape. You'd be surprised how many piano players can't do it, especially if they've had no studio experience. (Especially classically trained ones!)
 
Thanks! How about this...

Thank you both for your kind suggestions.

I was thinking of only miking a few kids and having the rest of the kids sing along acapella with them. What do you think of that idea? Then I wouldnt' even have to worry about a pianist.

Or I could just sing with them with my guitar or something. Still, though, I'd get bleed/delay.

So...what I'm considering is miking a bunch of them and no miking the rest. I have a Behringer Powerplay Pro HA4400 with four separate amps. Three outputs each. No headphone bleed as long as I use the phones which fully cover the ears.

What do you think?

Thanks for the mic advice, too. I'm a gemini, which will only serve to make the mic decision more complicated!

Julia
 
I still think you're headed for a train wreck if the kids don't get monitors. Use a couple of B1's or the like and let it bleed some.

Heck, I've often left the studio monitors on accidentally when recording acoustic stuff yet it's not heard in the mix.
 
Okay, well if you were creating a CD...

Would you want a stereo image, as with the B1's on either side, or would you want something other than a stereo image?

As for the bleed, (if I play into the monitors), would that effectively "ruin" a CD? The delay created, I mean.
 
Julia,

I don't think the bleed would ruin the recording, but hey, only one way to find out :)

About the headphones - I wouldn't bother with fully closed ones. They are really hard to get used to, if you have no studio experience. I would run the play back in mono, and give each kid one earphone from a pair of these in-ear walkman style headphones. Cheap, and effective.

Oren
 
Thanks, Oren...guess what, though...

Last year when I recorded last year's program I did just that. I let them sing to the accompaniment playing through their monitors. But I was told (and it's true) by a guy I know who knows a LOT more about sound and recording than I do, that it produced such a nasty delay as to render the CD "icky". You know, yuk, bleck, pa-tooie. He's the same guy who suggested I use headphones this year initially.

Now...as to your wonderful suggestion about the "ear bud" sort of earphones, I had the opportunity to buy 48 sets of those, brand new, from a wholesaler on Ebay, very reasonably. As in cheap. (But boy would I have spent my whole budget on 1/8" to 1/4" adapters to plug those into the headphone distribution boxes???!!!)

But the same guy I mention above told me NO WAY should I do that because the bleed would again be too nasty. Yes, even the bleed from those earbud types of phones. Said the same thing about the type they give you on planes, too. Too much bleed.

Disagree?
 
Re: Thanks, Oren...guess what, though...

Julia said:

But the same guy I mention above told me NO WAY should I do that because the bleed would again be too nasty. Yes, even the bleed from those earbud types of phones. Said the same thing about the type they give you on planes, too. Too much bleed.

Disagree?
Click to expand...

Yes. :D

I think you're (he is. actually) making too much of it. The bleed from such headphones is so minimal, that I doubt anyone would ever notice it. Besides, many great recordings were done by singing with monitors on (U2 comes to mind).
I really don't think you're supposed to have any problems with either methods, but hey, you be the judge.

Oren
 
You've got to be kidding me...

U2 records to monitors which bleed into the recording of the vocals??????

Wow, if that's true...geez...it oughta be good enough for the kids!

Hmmm....

Thank you, Oren!
 
Julia, i think you are making this too complicated. It's a bunch of kids. Slap a mic up there and have fun. As you learn more (by doing it) then you can start sweating all the small stuff.

If you put some monitors pointed at the kids and away from the mics and leave the volume as low as possible you should be fine. I can't imagine trying to use 40 individual headphones for that type of a situation and unless your kids are a bunch of primadonnas they probably wont know the difference.
 
Re: Re: Thanks, Oren...guess what, though...

Aren said:
The bleed from such headphones is so minimal, that I doubt anyone would ever notice it.
Click to expand...

I would tend to agree. BUT, I'm using my imagination and I'm thinking of the small amount of bleed you get from one of these sets headphones and then times that by 40 . . . and, well, I'm thinking high "ca-cah" potential, here. :D Probably won't be a factor, but not sure if I'd want to risk it.
 
Re: Okay, well if you were creating a CD...

Julia said:
Would you want a stereo image, as with the B1's on either side, or would you want something other than a stereo image?

As for the bleed, (if I play into the monitors), would that effectively "ruin" a CD? The delay created, I mean.
Click to expand...

-I'd line the kids up in rows and put two mics in front of them, panned out a little.

-I'd put the monitors facing the kids and in front of the mics and as away from them as possible.

-I'd have the prexisting tracks already recorded on the hard disk recorder

-I'd cut most all the bass out of the monitors and give them enough volume to hear and no more.

-Once recorded, I'd pan the two vocal tracks out to taste, maybe all the way.


As to bleed, I don't know how you could ruin the CD unless you don't want any of the accompaniment recorded and you just want to record the vocals. If that's the case, even closed headphones will be heard.

In this type of recording there's lots of ways to get things out of phase, but delay I'm not so sure.



Ok Julia, once you get this project recorded, I hope you post some samples in the mic forum or mp3 clinic or somewhere.

Just finished a phonics CD for kids (Colleen Richey)...little songs for each sound. We ended up dumping most of the live things and worked them up in Band-In-A-Box with Colleen's vocals and spoken words on top. Hardest thing there was diction.....it had to be perfect.
 
Many recordings, as has been said repeatedly, have been made singing with monitors.

The bleed that gets into the vocal tracks, when mixed back into the whole mix, comes across as "ambience". It just means that often you end up using less reverb on the individual instrumental tracks. Sometimes the result is BETTER than any "reverb in a box" anyway.

One of the biggest unwarranted phobias that all "new" engineers have is about bleed. Embrace bleed! It can be your best friend.

I remember the first time I recorded a jazz sextet in my little two room studio. I had the acoustic bass and grand piano in one room, and had to put the three horns (trumpet, sax, trombone) out with the drums. I was scared to death it would sound terrible.

Guess what - the drums sounded slamming with all the "room" sound getting into the horn mics. Since then, I don't worry about it!
 
As long as we are throwing out possible solutions, here is mine.

If this is Christmas music or something similar I would have someone with headphones who is listening to the music use a flashlight to keep the beat. Give this person a flashlight with an easy on off switch and have him be a visible metronome for the kids. On and off to the beat of the music. They already know the words and along with a music director, and the flashlight to keep a beat, they could just sing into the mics.

Later you could add the voices to the background music and you have perfect sound separation. The only challenge is to get them on key which can be done with a single piano note or pitch pipe.
 
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