(Studio Overhall) Help me decide which is my weakest piece of gear.

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pisces7378

pisces7378

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Hey Guys,

Here are to start out a few questions for anyone that is familiar with these products. But the real thread starts below. so if you are pressed for time... then skip the first 3 questions and go right to question 4.

1. What is the fundemental difference between the Mackie HDR24 and the MDR24? Other than the $1,000 or so.

2. If you have the MDR2496 or the HDR2496, which is not a PC or a Mac... then what do you use a "MOTU 2408MKII Digital Interface" for?
The reason I ask is because I have been trying to think of a way to stop leaning on my PC or Mac so much. I have Logic Audio Platinum and a "good" sound card and all. But I would like to have another option to play with. Stand alone HD Recorders look quite nice to me. But not if I have to go off and buy a ton of $900 audio interfaces and sh&%. because after all that I could have just bought a FAT ASS computer of Mac with a FAT ass sound card system.

3. A digital mixer: (TASCAM D24) Does this thing take my guitar, run the Analog to Digital conversion inside the digital mixer... then feed a digital signal direct into a (PC) hard disc drive? Because that is what the MOTU 896 does via Firewire. The digital mixer looks fucking brilliant! But it is like $2,400.

4. I am going to give you my scenerio and my present equipment list, and you tell me where my biggest weakness is and what you would replace. Keeping in mind that I am in Germany but will be moving home and will have to leave some things here behind... What gear should I abandon in Europe?

Recording: (multi-tracking [24 tracks]) 4-5 piece rock band.

Band:
- Drum set (8 mics going into 8 analog inputs coorisponding to 8 individual tracks for mixing later)
- 2 Electric Guitars (recorded individually or sometimes together) (miced Marshall stack, 1 to 2 tracks)
- Bass Guitar (same miced amp scenerio)
- Vocals (as many as 4 tracks per song)
- Midi (drum tracks, bass tracks, auxilary sounds, strings... 3-4 tracks)
****************************************
Ok that is my project...
Here is how I have BEEN doing it so far...
****************************************
Drums: Roland JV1010 Sound Module, w/ midi key controller through a Midiman Midisport 2x2 interface into Logic Audio Platinum 4.8.1 on a Pent III PC. Laying down the high hats, then "overdubbing" the snare, then the kick, then the symbols... time consuming shit here.

Bass: Same scenerio as the drums, except plaing bass lines.

Guitar: Direct recording through my Line 6 POD Direct Box through my M-Audio OMNI Studio breakout box into the Delta-66 sound card into Logic Audio.

Vocals: Same scenerio as the Guitar except with a Rode NTK Valve microphone.
*******************************************

As you can tell I have been doing it all by myself with MIDI and so fourth. But back home in the US I will be micing real drums and using my band to play it all. So I need more Ins. I need to back away a bit from the PC/Midi/sequencing of it all... and start some real mixing. This leads me to think that I need a good and large mixer. Particularlly of the digital kind. (like the TASCAM D24). But I will still be using my PC as the HD recorder and I will still be using Logic Audio Platinum. Is my sound card going to end up being my Akilies heel (sp?)? There is no way that I can squeeze 8-9 outputs out of the Delta 66 in order to propperly mic up a full on drum kit. I do not want to use the mixer to set the levels and then run a stereo signal from the mixer into the sound card on one or two tracks. That would eliminate my ability to adjust the different drum levels later.
Sometimes I would like just some more high hat here and there et cetera. (Is this what the MOTU 2408MKII is going to do?) Is it going to give me those in's and Outs? If that is the case and I am really software stuborned... then i could use the MOTU 2408MKII for ins and outs and use the soft-mixer in Logic Audio with the mouse like I have been. Right?


Anyway, thanks guys, this is still the best BBS.

Mike
 
Pisces:
I hope this helps. A few years back I basically in theory was looking for the same that you are looking for. I accomplished it, with good results, however, some of it quickly became outdated, hence I am looking to seriously upgrade myself.
Here's my current set up:
A mackie 1604 vlz
Two Layla interfaces with card into computer.
Cakewalk 9 with all the essential plug ins
Various microphones.
This serves the purpose, but translated into todays options you could use a better board analog or digital (I'm looking to upgrade to better analog board with better pres and eq)
After thinking it all through, and after many discussions, I came to the personal conclusion (whether right or not) that it would be better to stay analog and convert to digital only when it hits the computer, after pres, eq etc., (post console).
Plus I'm thinking that a good analog board will always be worth something, if nothing else for live performance, but the digital boards seem to be like computers, ie; todays hot item is next years piece of crap.
I also toyed with the idea of no mixing board but use the money for a rack full of nice pres, eq then into the computer. (any thoughts about this idea by the mighty members????lol)
The second upgrade would be the best a/d converter/interface and sound card system available without getting into digidesign type money.
And then of course I would either upgrade to sonar or switch teams to maybe Steinberg.
Also upgrading my computer at the same time.
I thought about using the stand alone recorder as well, and I like the idea, but everytime I think it through I end up wondering why I should not just record right to PC, if my tracks are going to end up there anyway. The only real reasoning I could think of for using the stand alone hard disk recorder is:
1. Avoiding the whole interface crap and figuring out how to remove the stuff from the stand alone via a removable drive or cd and importing it into the computer (I keep getting mixed messages on how that can be accomplished, so I am a little weary)
2. Are the analog to digital converters in the stand alone better than what I can get in an interface? That I don't know, but if so, it would seem to be a good enough reason to figure out #1.
Although I don't have many answers for you, I figured my thought processes might give you some answers.
jj
 
Thanks JJ,

And AlChuck. Didn't mean to "double post". it is just that the other post was at the end of a lot of questions and stuck away at the end of an already existing thread. Didn't think anyone would ever see it so I just striopped away some blah blah blah and posted it as a propper thread.

Thanks for you answer though. it fucking helped me get my head around this stuff a lot.

Let me ask you one more questions though... JJ here said that a digital mixer today might turn into yesterday's piece of §$%&. And that an analog mixer will always be able to be used at least for live sound. is a digital mixer not a good choice for live sound? And do you like the looks of the TASCAM D24? That is the digital mixer I am talking about. Could I use it for my band live as well? I mean I know I CAn use it. but is that not what these things were designed to be used for?

Thanks man

Mike
 
A digital mixer is a HORRIBLE choice for live sound.

I'd avoid it like the plague.

I don't REALLY know too much about the rest of your chain (not with any authority), but a 1604 w/ VLZ pre-amps can ALWAYS be a good thing. Especially for your setup.

Yeah, you need a mixer. Analog. Try and get those VLZ pre-amps (and no, Mackie WILL NOT put those in the CFX series, I specifically asked them).

If you need more inputs (16 on the 1604), then you can always get another mixer. Plus, the 1604 will retain it's value, so if you want to move to one of their 8*bus consoles, it won't be that big of a jump (if you HAVE to have more than 16 inputs on the same board, which you may not, if you have two mixers).

The best thing you can get is a mixer, IMHO.
 
Thanks Kelly,

But the thing is... it really doesn't matter how many INs and OUTS the mixer has... because my sound card doesn't have enough ins. What I am trying to do is be able to record a drum kit with 9 microphones on 9 individual tracks at the same time. Know what I mean? Like....

2 Overheads
1 snare
1 high hat
1 left tom
1 right tom
1 floor tom
1 Kick drum
and (maybe) 1 ride.
Total = 8-9 microphones

And I want to record them all on seperate tracks all at the same time so that I can adjust the levels and pan the toms and everything accoring to thie relavite position to each other blah blah blah... the whole nine yards. But my little Delta-66 / OMNI sound card package has 2 mic pre-amped ins and 2 line in puts... in the short, it has roughly half what I will need.

Now this leads me to another question... what kind of computer will do what I am talking about. At the moment I have a Pent III 933 MHz PC with 128 MB RAM and a normal speed 40GB HDD.
Now when I make all these purchases and actually start the OVERHALL of my project studio I will be leaving this computere here in Germany and buying a brand new one. I have been looking at the dual 1GHz G4 from Apple Mac. But I have heard that I could pay half what the Mac costs and get a near NASA powerf quality PC. Is this true or is it just the age old Mac/PC battle?
My brother has a masters in computer science and works in Atlanta for a big internet firm.. and he would rather shit in the case of an Apple than buy and use one. Buy I myself am not that good at computers and all that I know is that this Pent III 933 MHz PC that I bought is less than a year old and it crashes AT LEAST half the times I turn it on. Plus it doesn't take an idiot to see that almost ALL of the software/hardware companie out there favor Apple as the platform of choice, and a lot of them produce things for the Mac that they don't even bother for the PC (E-magic mastering software, MOTU et cetera)
I have seen tons of comparisons between the performance of a PC and an "equal" Mac and the Mac performed like 83% faster on Adobe Photoshop applications. But I have also seen 1,000,000 rebuttles saying that all this prooves is that Adobe coded photoshop with an Apple in mind.
I just have nightmare stories of me buying this PC and having to install the sound card and then spending 6 months on hotlines figuring out latency problems, IRQ interupt sharring problems, Daily crashings, Opperating system problems (Windows Me wasn't 100% supported until 6 months after I bough my Logic Audio Platinum.), driver problems, de-installing/re-installing drivers... I have gotten to the point where if I even hear that shit Windows gingle that rings out when someone fires up a laptop on the train going in to work, or I see that sit logo, I cringe.
Anyway... let me try to stear this thread back towards the original point. The 8-9 simultanious tracks... Would my Pent III 933 MHz puter pull something like that off if I increased the RAM up to like 512 MB RAM and got a super 7200 rpm HDD?
Because if it will not then I am just going to get on the Apple payment plan and make a down-payment and then pay them like $79 dollars a month for 24 months and try not to think about the expense.
My MAIN concern is USER FRIENDLINESS. I am about to start recording my band and hopefully record my friend's bands (just for the experience, not for money) and I don't want to get everything set up and then have to call it all off for the day/week so that I can go call e-magic/microsoft support line to find out why my PC crashes when I switch it on.

I know this is a long thread and it must sound pretty pathetic for me to just come on out and admit that I am a computer goober. And I know that some of my problems are because I just don't know so much about BIOS and the CPU archetecture of my Pent III... hell I don't even know how to find out what mother board I have. (I have even taken the PC aprt just to look for a brand name on the PCB. installing the PCI sound card made me feel like I really know what is going on. But I know I need more RAM but to be honest... I haven't a clue which kind of RAm to get. I have read that if you get the wrong kind then you can have problems like, buying 256 MB of RAm but the computer on recognizing 128 MBs of that RAM. So anyway... I know that I am a reason why I have had such nightmares with the PC... but do you really think that I should stick with a PC or should I just go for what every University Art department and Pro Recording Studio across the US has... Mac?

Thanks for reading this novel,

Mike
 
Oh. I got your solution right here.

M-Audio 1010LT. I just received one in the mail yesterday, no shit. It's the baby brother of the 1010 (10 in, 10 out, although two of each of those are S/PDIF), the only real difference being balanced/unbalanced inputs.

I went here, and got a FREE large-diaphragm condensor with it (and SAMPLITUDE, as well). www.bayviewproaudio.com

Total bill for 8-in, 8-out recording (24/96), with FREE large-diaphragm condensor and SAMPLITUDE:

$380

You have to call them and specifically mention the free stuff, btw. Nice folks (didn't sell SM-58's, though, because "they're not recording microphones.").
 
And get a Dell.

Do NOT get a Mac. You will be in WTF? limbo for AT LEAST a year if you do (very weird setups, if you're used to Windows stuff). Get 98se or 2000 or MAYBE XP (check what you're going to be using it with, but use 2000 as a basis), 512k at least, and a good ol' cheap but fast chip (PIII is great, especially past 800 Mhz).

Plus, Dell does the whole finance thing and they're REALLY good at the tech support thing (not to mention your computer will pretty much be ready when it's delivered, except for installing your soundcard).

Don't go nuts. Get whatever is standard now (what is that, anyways?), and don't worry about spending $200 extra for top-of-the-line. That $200 becomes $500 real quick after financing, and you can add/upgrade as long as the motherboard you're selecting is decent (I don't know about that either, but Dell will, so will folks here).

And ENABLE DMA on your harddrives. :D A lot of times this won't be set correctly, as some DMA settings screw drives, aparently (not much worry to that, btw).

You're going to need a mixer sooner or later. The card I mentioned, the 1010LT, only has two preamps. The VLZ ones on the 1604 would be perfect, and you could use it at shows, too.
 
I just re-read your post, and you already have a good system. You WILL need 7200 RPM drives, though.

It may be best for you to just buy one big stick of 512k SDRAM (depending on your system), and ditch the other memory (or sell it, save it, whatever).

Then find your appropriate OS (98se or 2000), and FDISK your drive and start over. Fixes everything, pretty much (you'll probably have to do it with the new drive, anyway).

So.... get a 7200 RPM drive (or make sure that you have one already, they're somewhat standard nowadays) and reinstall everything on your computer after having made backups of everything (I'd write down your drivers and how your components show up in Control Panel/System Manager before FDISK'ing, btw), and install one chunk of 512 K RAM (probably 133 Mhz SDRAM, because you have a 933 Mhz processor).

Oh, yeah. And get that 1010LT, or something w/ 8 inputs.
 
Kelly

Jeez Thanks man.

Really. That was cool. Maybe you are right about the PC/Mac stuff.

The whole Mac/PC battle to me is a strange one. Obviously just by doing the economic market share between PC and Mac, one can see immediatly a hands down winner in, more people owning and using PCs than Mac. I guess several issues influence that... i.e.
Price: Apples are just too damn expensive.
Publicity: people know Windows and Microsoft. Apple means to most people my age, "That shitty little beige computer from grade school that you had to type in commands to get it to do anything."
Computer salesmen: Sticking to PCs in stores across the world... selling PC after PC to people like my mother who want to finally "surf that information super highway."
Shere number: There are so many PC companies out there sticking who knows who's parts into a case, screwing it all together, slapping a cute sticker on it, giving it the "Intel Inside" medal on the front, and shipping it to college freshmen all over the world.

Now all that being said. I really just do not know. I know that the jump from PC to Mac would be a huge kink in my flow, in that I might actually have to read a book or two on how to do this and that. but to be honest... I know not much more than jack shit about PCs so jumping to Mac would be no tragedy. The absolute ONLY thing that makes me look at Mac over PC is standardization. When I look through the internet for audio schools for me to go to in England and the US all I hear about in the sales pitch aside from all the upgraded Solid State Logic Desks to the newest SSL this, that, or the other... I read also: "Brought in 8 new Mac G4 1GHz DAWs with Logic Audio Platinum (or ProTools)." I have yet to see a recording studio bosting about the Dell or the Gateways that they picked up. Also... I majored in Art in the University for 2 years and never once seen a PC in an art department's class room. Now I will be keeping this new computer free of (almost) all apps other than my music apps. I will not be installing any fucking MSN communicators or AOL instant messengers. hell I won't even get a modem on it unless I decide that I want to start sharing some files in a colabrative effort through my Logic Audio. But... I might be using this new machine to do the album covers for my CDs. And EVERY art program is totally geared towards Mac and so are the Music Apps. I know that the guys here in Germany at E-magic that I spoke with recently told me that the G4 is the ideal machine for Logic Audio Platinum 5. of course they aren't going to open up that can of shit publically and watch all their PC users cross grading to ProTools or whoever. I just have the feeling that if I bought a Mac, that I would not be sorry, except for a few jeers and snickers from the PC boyz that will think I went soft an Mac Faggy.

The reason i have wrotten another novel... and the reason I didn't go make this another full fledged seperate post is because I would rather have just YOUR input and keep it all easy and un biased. just tell me you best argument for why a PC, in your opinion, is a superior machine for digital audio than a Mac? And please try to keep it limited to real life scenerios. I will never be streaming DVDs directly from a live camera to my Hard Disc. And I can't stand computer games. So as far as Digital Music Applications is concerned. Why do you think a Dell is better than a Mac, without considering the price?

Really thanks for your patience and I look really forward to reading your answer.

Thanks,

mike
 
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