Studio build in unfinished "bonus room" above garage

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I called KineticsNoise today and talked to Chris Underwood.......he said that the KIP RIM system probably wouldn't help that much for me because I don't have enough mass in the flooring right now......he recommended a product from their site called Loaded Limp Mass Barrier Material, Model KNM...it's about 1/8" thick and comes in a roll......1 roll covers 270 sq ft, weighs 300 lbs.....trouble is that it costs $565......

Rick, I plan to do some work on the soffit issue this weekend and I'll try to find the answers to your questions.....
 
Yellow line shows insulation areas, which are along floor joists, just lay on top of your floor is fine, in between the vertical kingposts(not sure what you guys call these) then up rafters and along your new ceiling ties.

Red line shows ventilation path, you may or may not have a vented ridge, depending on whether a breathable membrane was used as tile underlay.
 
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Thanks CMunch.....

What is anybody's thoughts on knee-walling my west wall down further than the east wall.......if I knee-wall it to the east wall height I'm loosing alot of square footage.....if I knee-walled the west wall at 24" instead of 44", what would that do so far as room acoustics?

Also, I was going to redo the south wall as Rick suggested, but should the angled walls (with doors) come to a point in the middle or can there be some flat south wall.......

\/ or \_/ ?????????


Thanks.....I'm going to try to get some stuff done on it this weekend....
 
Well, I took another good long look around the studio and I think I've came to a few decisions......

1) Since I've been advised by several people now, I'm going to go with the PVC plan to ventilate the vertical rafter cavities......I can still do this now....any further and I'm stuck.

2) I've thought about pulling up the flooring and doing some sort of decoupling effort by some form of isolation on the beam/joists.....that's alot of work though, and I'm thinking that adding mass would be better than trying to decouple under the existing flooring....

3) Since the north/south wall baseplate is nailed to the coupled existing flooring, I'm going to use RC to decouple the walls/ceiling......even if I somehow decoupled the floor (underneath), the west/east walls would be a flanking path because they sit on the exterior wall top plates.....I could get by with the north/south walls by tearing down the existing inner wall and nailing the baseplates into the newly decoupling flooring.....no easy way to get around that with the west/east walls though (unless I went with the room-in-a-room concept).....

4) Still not completely sure what I'm going to do to the floor....thinking about foam carpet underlay, then carpet, then 1" plywood, then regular laminate underlay, then laminate....I can always find the carpet for free so this would be the cheapest solution.

Would it be best to put this flooring down now, then put the new knee-wall baseplate on TOP of this new flooring, or is it really going to matter since I'll be using RC for all walls?

Hope I'm making myself clear on this......

Thoughts?
 
Not sure about this one so.........Hey RICK what would be your thoughts on Danskin batons for the floor, basically a timber batton with foam fixed to under side, they are not fixed, they sit on a sub-floor usually at 600mm centres and a foam filler goes around perimeter of room, pretty much any type of flooring can be fitted over them.

I have no idea whether they are suitable for this type of application, we use them here in apartment blocks because they dont allow sound transference between floors or from apartment to apartment on the same floor.

http://www.danskin.co.uk/flooring/default.asp?p=19
 
Seems like it would be a third leaf, but not sure.....depends on the foam aspect I guess......we'll let Rick answer this one.....

Been building the studio in my head tonight and couldn't sleep, then I got a call from work and had to get into our computer system.....so I'm up, it's 2:42 AM though and I'm heading back to bed....thought about maybe this for the flooring:
carpet, then Concrete Backer Board, then plywood or chipboard, then laminate with underlayment.....

It will be interesting to get Rick's take on your Danskin baton idea though.....thanks man
 
Someone that knows (Rick??) please chime in here if I'm wrong; but, I had heard that the old style exterior board (it was usually black but sometimes brown) and it broke very easily. It was almost like cardboard but not quite. Hemosote?? That may add the mass to the floor that you are looking for. It is 5/8" so I don't know if that 1/2" of difference between their LLMB would make a difference or not but I know Homosote isn't anywhere near $565! I think I heard that sometimes it's used in multi story apartments to further isolate noise between floors.

Concerning the shorter knee wall - what do your building codes dictate? If you get to the point of selling the place you may have to build another wall out to the "legal" height. This would mean moving any electrical on that short wall to the new taller one.

Mike
 
You can also get 19mm gyproc boards, they are 600mm wide and 2400mm long, they can be loose layed on floor and laminate layed over, not expensive either, this was the method we used before danskins were available here.
 
There is a product at Lowes called HardieBacker, at Home Depot it's called Wonderboard....it's a concrete backer board. Carpet, then Wonderboard, then plywood or chipboard, then laminate with underlay.....I could use concrete to fill the joints of the Wonderboard.

CMunch, HardieBacker/Wonderboard may be what you were talking about...........
 
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robn said:
There is a product at Lowes called HardieBacker, at Home Depot it's called Wonderboard....it's a concrete backer board. Carpet, then Wonderboard, then plywood or chipboard, then laminate with underlay.....I could use concrete to fill the joints of the Wonderboard.

CMunch, HardieBacker/Wonderboard may be what you were talking about...........
Click to expand...

That stuff is a nightmare to work with dude, this is the boards I was talking about.



http://www.british-gypsum.com/products/plasterboard___accessories/gyproc_acoustic/gyproc_plank.aspx
 
So we're talking about the same thing then, Gyproc and HardieBacker/Wonderboard?

If so, what were the difficulties with it?

Also, after reading more, I think the carpet part of my equation is not a good idea, not dense enough and doesn't compress like it needs to. Maybe some 703...

Mike, I'll check into the Hemosote......
 
Mike,

I checked into the stuff you mentioned...it's called Homasote....they have it here where I live at McCoys Lumber......I don't know the cost but it comes in a 4'X8'X1/2" sheet.......it is designed for sound attenuation......they have a website you can check out, it has some good diagrams and STC ratings for different assemblies....look for 440 SoundBoard........the density is 26-28 lb/ft and the Noise Reduction Coefficient is .20 ........I don't know how that compares to regular drywall.....anyway, I may check them out Monday at McCoy's.
 
robn said:
So we're talking about the same thing then, Gyproc and HardieBacker/Wonderboard?

If so, what were the difficulties with it?

Also, after reading more, I think the carpet part of my equation is not a good idea, not dense enough and doesn't compress like it needs to. Maybe some 703...

Mike, I'll check into the Hemosote......
Click to expand...

Not sure Robyn, the product we call HardieBacker is a 12mm cement based board, in some higher spec housing developments it is used around shower trays before tiling, about 600mm high all the way round the shower, then moisture resistant gyproc boards from HB to ceiling. If a seal fails you dont have to rip tiles off to repair sodden plasterboard is the theory behind using it.

The difficulties I am talking about are, it is heavy and brittle, transporting it anywhere in one piece is almost impossible, it is very difficult to cut and shape and if you try using any power tools on it, you will be cleaning up the fine cement dust for months.

The 19mm gyproc we call it 'planking' is denser than normal gyproc sheets, but it can be cut and shaped easily with an old handsaw or knife, you can lay 40mm sound rated glasswool then fit 19mm planking on top, then lay a floating 22mm chipboard floor directly over, cheap and quick to do. May or may not be suitable for your needs, you will again have to check with RICK on that one.
 
I checked into the stuff you mentioned...it's called Homasote....they have it here where I live at McCoys Lumber......I don't know the cost but it comes in a 4'X8'X1/2" sheet.......it is designed for sound attenuation......they have a website you can check out, it has some good diagrams and STC ratings for different assemblies....look for 440 SoundBoard........the density is 26-28 lb/ft
Click to expand...
:eek: ummmm...
that rating must be in CUBIC feet.


5/8" gyp bd is rated at 2.5 lbs per SQUARE ft. which means about 48 lbs per CUBIC foot.(19.2 pieces in a 12" thick stack x 2.5 lbs per 12 x12 piece=48 lbs)
which is much heavier than Homosote if that rating is in CUBIC feet..which it MUST BE...I can't believe it could weigh 26-28 lbs per SQUARE foot especially being 1/2" thick:rolleyes:
http://www.gypsum.org/pdf/GA-235-05b.pdf

However Robn..did you see this?
http://www.homasote.com/products/4-Way-Floor-Deck.aspx
:eek: They use CARPET UNDERLAYMENT within a 4 layer composite panel manufactured for SUB FLOORING!! Now, what was that I was saying about carpet underlayment between the mass and the finish floor?:D Although I would use MDF/OSB or drywall for the mass...not homosote. But the caveat about "impact" noise vs resonance/vibration transmission still stands.

If remember correctly, Homasote didn't "feel" as heavy as drywall to me. I actually don't like homosote for building stuff. Other than "fabric covered panels" for displays. It cuts with a "feathered edge", doesn't lay perfectly flat(from my experience)
I believe that common advice for mass in studios leans towards the use of 5/8" drywall/MDF and Lead, depending on use, budget and availability.

Thats just my opinion Robn. But here is one other idea for your floor mass. 1 1/2" thick MDF:p However, getting it upstairs is a "whole nuther animal":D(btw, I've used 1 1/2" thick MDF on numerous occasions during my previous employment. Even used it to make studs for display work. But ripping pieces with anything less than a shear panel saw is a lesson in sore muscles:p

Anyway, sorry I haven't been around in a few days Robn. I'm pushing to finish this mobile home project. Just finished shiething, painting and putting up the trim on the front. Now to finish painting the rest. I'll tell you something though. Be thankfull your home wasn't built like one of these pieces of shit.:rolleyes: You can't assume anything. Like I did. Like windows being plumb and level...ARRRRGGGGGGGGGRRRRRRR...talk about hindsight being 20/20...getting this trim to come out fairly straight and level with a joint in the middle where the two halves seperate...fuck.:mad::(:p took 2 days to sort it out and make it work...somewhat. :D Heres what it looks like as of today. At least it matched my design that I did in Sketchup. The original trim and facade was a joke.:rolleyes: Ripped it all out. Ain't great, but for the money and time...not bad. I just wanta get it sold.:)
Still have the bathrooms and finishing touches to do like lights, outlets, baseboards etc. Frankly, I'm too tired to do a damn thing today after climbing ladders for 3 days:rolleyes: But my sister and brother in law are down from Eugene to help.:( Sooooooo....its off to work. fuck. Can't wait to work on my OWN studio.
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Hey Rick, glad you're back.......

RICK FITZPATRICK said:
However Robn..did you see this?
http://www.homasote.com/products/4-Way-Floor-Deck.aspx
Click to expand...

Interesting.....looks like it's a TG assembly also.....installed with Liquid Nails..... might be worth looking into......there is a McCoy's Lumber here in town that carries Homasote......I might give them a call this afternoon......

Hey, the mobile home project looks just about like your drawing in Sketchup! Good work sir! When do you figure you'll be done with it? (Not soon enough right?:D)



P.S. McCoy's has the Homasote 440 Soundboard but not the 4-way that you showed me Rick......too bad.:mad:
 
Somehow the thought of Rick dancing around in Danskins brings a smile to my face ;) And if he does, I pray to God that he doesn't post any pics of it!!:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
 
Well, after 3 years of delays (other projects, lack of finances, mixed in with a helping of laziness) I'm finally getting back to this project.....

Had to get a new permit since the old one expired.....got a building permit and mechanical (for HVAC).....have an electrician coming out early next week....the electrical has already been roughed in and hooked into the breaker box (breakers are not flipped on yet). Built a couple of baffle boxes for the HVAC....I have a send and return into the room. Room is insulated on 3 sides, haven't finished framing out the door area.....will do that early next week. After alot of contemplation regarding the floor, I decided not to float it.....this room sits over the garage so it has drywall/insulation/1" plywood. To float it, I was going to use Aurelex pucks/1" OSB/laminate flooring......after re-reading various posts and also Rod's excellent book, I think I will go with 1/2" carpet foam, then 23/32" OSB, then laminate. The walls will be 5/8" drywall, then Green Glue, then 1/2" drywall.

HVAC is done and tested. I will get the inspector out next week to approve. Hopefully I can get the electrical inspected this week also......would like to start drywall next weekend.

Anyway, I appreciate the input I had years ago.........if anyone wants to chime in, feel free. I will load some updated pics soon.
 
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My concern with this build has always been the extra weight load.....I got a Structural Engineer out about 3 years ago and he was useless......told me to disassemble the floor and basically acted like he couldn't be bothered anyway. If I understand this properly though....the 2 layers of drywall+GG would be putting weight on the perimeter of the room which would be the top caps of the garage, which of course sits on vertical studs. The additional weight to the middle beam that runs down the middle of the garage (and therefore studio) would be impacted only by the weight of whatever I chose for the floor. Right now I'm wondering if just doing a single 5/8" drywall would be enough......I could try it and then test it out, then add another layer if I need to......here is what the leafs are, going from outside to inside and by direction:
West - asphalt shingles, roof sheathing, 2X6" beams with insulation, then the drywall I will install
North - brick, sheathing, 2X4" studs with insulation, 6" air gap with insulation, 2X4" studs with insulation, then the drywall I will install
East - asphalt shingles, roof sheathing, 2X6" beams with insulation, knee-wall at 4' with insulation stuffed behind, then the drywall I will install
South - drywall (bedroom wall), insulation, 10" air space that will be filled with insulation, then the drywall I will install

The door to the studio will be on the east side, then there is a 4'X8' area that will serve as an air lock, then another door that goes into the upstairs hallway.

Here are a few pics of the garage when they were building our house....the studio is above.....
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