Space

[andrushkiwt]

I would post my current mix to have some context here, but i'll be putting it up in the clinic next week once I'm satisfied with it and I don't want to spam my tracks or anything....

so, i'll ask you guys, how do you go about creating a nice space in your mix? I understand this is complex element that involves everything from tracking, the room, mics, EQ, etc... but let's just say that the mix was sounding great to your ears, nice and full, everything right where you want it and then BAM! at the last minute, you're thinking, sh*t, this is a little dense. it needs some air moving around. a sense of more space between things. just a touch. to give it more of a "live feel" perhaps. where would you go from there, assuming re-tracking ain't happening

which freq's do you like you target for adding some top air? 12 and up? do you have a "go-to" spot? pulling out mids and leaving highs maybe? I'm getting a sense that my low-mids and mid-mids are slightly clogging things up, so i might pull back there collectively, on the master EQ, or even go back to each instrument to do this. the trouble is, once you have 4 guitars, bass, full kit, and vocals, pulling back 3db at 350hz from a single guitar is extremely hard to identify. it might help, sure, but noticing the benefit immediately is tough. and don't get me wrong, the mix sounds good. i think many would be satisfied with it. but i can just hear how it COULD be. i get that sense of things just opening up a touch.

anyway, space. as a last minute realization. where do you reach/look?

(let me know if i should move this to the mastering forum, or go ahead and move it if you're a mod) thanks!

 

[Mickster]

I would post my current mix to have some context here, but i'll be putting it up in the clinic next week once I'm satisfied with it and I don't want to spam my tracks or anything....

so, i'll ask you guys, how do you go about creating a nice space in your mix? I understand this is complex element that involves everything from tracking, the room, mics, EQ, etc... but let's just say that the mix was sounding great to your ears, nice and full, everything right where you want it and then BAM! at the last minute, you're thinking, sh*t, this is a little dense. it needs some air moving around. a sense of more space between things. just a touch. to give it more of a "live feel" perhaps. where would you go from there, assuming re-tracking ain't happening

which freq's do you like you target for adding some top air? 12 and up? do you have a "go-to" spot? pulling out mids and leaving highs maybe? I'm getting a sense that my low-mids and mid-mids are slightly clogging things up, so i might pull back there collectively, on the master EQ, or even go back to each instrument to do this. the trouble is, once you have 4 guitars, bass, full kit, and vocals, pulling back 3db at 350hz from a single guitar is extremely hard to identify. it might help, sure, but noticing the benefit immediately is tough. and don't get me wrong, the mix sounds good. i think many would be satisfied with it. but i can just hear how it COULD be. i get that sense of things just opening up a touch.

anyway, space. as a last minute realization. where do you reach/look?

(let me know if i should move this to the mastering forum, or go ahead and move it if you're a mod) thanks!

I really think we could help you more if we heard the song. I don't have any hard and fast rules for creating space.......which is really as much about how your "sound stage" is set up (panning etc).......as it is about EQ. Reverb.....delay and other effects on tracks.......as you know......when used properly can also create "space". Anyway.......when you're ready......post it up.

 

[andrushkiwt]

i know it's difficult to talk about out of context, but it's a traditional, modern rock track - hard panned G's, another set inside that around 80%, bass, full kit, double tracked vocals. it builds slowly throughout, and the final section is all out with everything playing. but it lacks an openness to it - it just becomes too dense, and i'm not sure if cutting some low mids will help the top shine more, or if i should reach for something up top to boost across the board.

of course, i can just try it out and see, but i'm at work and won't be able to try it out till tonight. this was just a post to get some ideas up and going until then.

here's the track...the part in question, where it's most noticeable (lack of space and sense of denseness) to me is from 2:45 and out.

 

[Mickster]

I took a quick listen but would need to spend more time on it. If I get a chance I will. But.........in my opinion.......it's the first part of the track that could use some help on the "spacing". The part before the drums come in. The parts after that are not too bad. The drums are the only element I'd think about doing anything with in the later parts. They seem so up front in your face. But going back to the earlier part of the song.......your vocal is very up front and perhaps a bit too loud. It seems like you might have wanted to ride that fader a little. The vox seems all one level early on and that doesn't help. You do have dynamics in the vocal so think about using them a bit more. As well......the vocal FX you used in the early part seemed to be in an attempt to create space.........but only emphasize the middle parts. Sorry to be a bit vague here. Others here will likely add better detail. In any case.......it's pretty well done so remember........this is just my opinion.

 

[Robus]

This close to the #1 thing I'm looking for in my mixes. I don't claim my mixes are great by any means, but two comments I hear on most of my tracks is that the mix is spacious and that the guitars sound pretty good.

For me, it's an arrangement issue first and foremost, not an EQ issue. Apart from a high pass filter on most tracks, the only tracks I do much EQing on are vocals--guitars almost never. I think if you have a dense arrangement and are trying to create space by subtractive EQ on guitars, that's going to be a frustrating task. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that it's going to be hair-pulling.

Your music is heavier than mine, so I don't know how much of this will apply--and I'm not claiming expertise. But here is the way I've started thinking about things in my own music. I think of "space" as being like another instrument in the arrangement--except that it's heard where the other instruments aren't. Maybe that sounds paradoxical or silly, but since I've started thinking in this way I've been more pleased with my mixes. That's means considering where I'm going to "put" the "space" right from the beginning, when I am tracking and building the overall arrangement. I'll be like, "nah, don't need another guitar in there; it'll be stepping on the 'space.'" Or "Better pan that guitar wide to leave room for the 'space.'"

I don't know if that's applicable to your music or not. On a more specific level, I've been turning my guitars down more and hard-panning them. I never double guitar parts. I also hardly ever use reverb on guitar, unless it's spring reverb from the amp. For ambiance on the guitars, I use delay instead.

 

[andrushkiwt]

interesting and insightful. thanks for all that, that's a really well thought out response.

i did push the vocal a bit in the intro, i wanted it to grab attention for the verses but fall back in the doubled tracked choruses. I didn't ride the faders, i hardly ever do. instead, i manually edited the segments, sometimes down to a single word, to keep the volume consistent. that way, if i did something that affected the entire vocal track, those levels would still be the same in relation to one another. anyways, i could take down some of the compression for the vocal, it's on there pretty thick. i think i'm reaching almost 9db reduction on peaks.

i'm not sure what to do with the drums beside bring them down in volume. i like the comp on them and i think the EQ is good for them, although maybe LP'ing some elements of the kit might push them back a little if they're too up front. funny - a few months ago, my drums sounded far back and non-important.

finally, there is a TINY 1.6db boost on a slope at 13khz. just for top sizzle and air, which i don't think there is enough of later on the mix. i guess you thought the opposite, however. i'm sure our listening environments are affecting that as well.

thanks a lot. def gives me something to think about when i sit down with it later. (fyi, these are all amp sims and superior drummer, on a 2 input interface w/ stock plugs)

 

[andrushkiwt]

This close to the #1 thing I'm looking for in my mixes. I don't claim my mixes are great by any means, but two comments I hear on most of my tracks is that the mix is spacious and that the guitars sound pretty good.

For me, it's an arrangement issue first and foremost, not an EQ issue. Apart from a high pass filter on most tracks, the only tracks I do much EQing on are vocals--guitars almost never. I think if you have a dense arrangement and are trying to create space by subtractive EQ on guitars, that's going to be a frustrating task. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that it's going to be hair-pulling.

Your music is heavier than mine, so I don't know how much of this will apply--and I'm not claiming expertise. But here is the way I've started thinking about things in my own music. I think of "space" as being like another instrument in the arrangement--except that it's heard where the other instruments aren't. Maybe that sounds paradoxical or silly, but since I've started thinking in this way I've been more pleased with my mixes. That's means considering where I'm going to "put" the "space" right from the beginning, when I am tracking and building the overall arrangement. I'll be like, "nah, don't need another guitar in there; it'll be stepping on the 'space.'" Or "Better pan that guitar wide to leave room for the 'space.'"

I don't know if that's applicable to your music or not. On a more specific level, I've been turning my guitars down more and hard-panning them. I never double guitar parts. I also hardly ever use reverb on guitar, unless it's spring reverb from the amp. For ambiance on the guitars, I use delay instead.

i'm totally happy with the spacial arrangement and panning. sorry, i guess i could have been more clear. i guess what i meant is the top, top end. you know, that element that makes it sound "live" and "air-y". like, you can hear that air around the instruments. the sense of room. that kind of space...not panning or placement issues. more like things dealing with LP filters and top boost.

if i boost too low, the OH's are splashy and harsh...too high and you can't even tell (at least not me or on my monitoring devices). but these modern rock tracks all have a nice breathy, spacey ring to them. they aren't dense and narrow.

 

[Robus]

I gave it a listen. Good tune, great singing. It's not claustrophobic for me. I hear what you're talking about, especially from about 2:20 on. The issue I hear is the guitars are starting to encroach on the lead vocal. I'm guessing the pair panned at 80% are the main culprits. Couldn't you turn them down? I also think a lot of the problem is not so much the guitars themselves, but the ambiance on them. It's like the ambiance on the guitars and the ambiance on the vocals is washing together and causing conflict. Are you sending the guitars and lead vocal to the same reverb bus? If so, maybe try a separate reverb for guitars and vocals, or try what I suggested above and use a delay to get ambiance on your guitars.

EDIT: Our posts are crossing.

 

[andrushkiwt]

ok. well, i'm glad you heard it and picked it out. I think the verses have a good sense of "room" and verb, but it lacks as the song builds in intensity.

the vocals use a "medium studio" verb, as do the guitars...but it isn't the same instance. they are different and have different pre-delays. vox at about 90ms and guitars at about 35ms. I have an option on my verb for "plane", so I set the vox plane about 60% up from the floor and guitars below that, about 30% up.

yeah, maybe the guitars are just washing everything out and making it lose that nice airiness it has in the second verse (the one w/ drums). i'll try taking them down, though honestly, i already did that and settled on this level last night.

 

[Nola]

thanks for making a thread about this, andru. i was thinking about doing that after the discussion in robus' thread about space.
i think robus is right it's usually arrangement. i have a bad habit of starting with all instruments and playing them through the entire song. it's claustrophobic and i need to change it. i think the low end is part of it, too, like keeping either kick or bass guitar to anchor (whichever is is less busy) and hp the other one pretty aggressively. i've heard mono mixes that are spacious (like old jefferson airplane or the beatles), so i'm not sure it's as much to do with panning as we'd think. i think mixing in mono (until the very end) is a good way to keep space in mind

i will check out your song when i switch computers and see if i can add anything specific

 

[andrushkiwt]

i don't think i've ever tried to mix in mono. my guitars are always way too loud and distorted when i check it briefly...to the point where i wonder why i even checked it that way. lol. it's probably because i push those heavy guitars out hard, so when they collapse it becomes a smudgy distorted mess. but hey, i haven't had any complaints from anyone regarding that lately, so maybe mono mixing isn't for every instance/mix?

i HP everything as default, though it's always a little different. kicks in the 20-35hz range, toms a little higher, snare around 90hz, vox around 115hz, guitars around 100hz. I use LP on my amp sims since the high stuff is hissy-fizzy, so around 6.5khz for those. not on vox or drums though. bass yes, around 7khz. for blended background vocals, i push farther on the LP, maybe 9-12 khz

 

[Nola]

take a modern song like this, which your song reminds me of a bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdIXrcH7QLU

i think that's a very busy song with loud, programmed drums, but it's a spacious and beautiful mix. the guitars sound pretty low in the mix (just like robus suggested to add space). and the arrangement is very good where things come in here and there and then leave. i don't know if this would derail the thread or be on topic, but i'd love someone to help break down that mix in terms of spacing, especially in the 3D dimension.

 

[mjbphotos]

Don't know what you are aiming for re space, but the way the mix is now, the drums and lead vocal are right in front, the guitars are "back" and get very murky around the 2:20 version and again at 3:10 - I wold question why you need 4 guitars playing essentially the same thing.

 

[andrushkiwt]

Don't know what you are aiming for re space, but the way the mix is now, the drums and lead vocal are right in front, the guitars are "back" and get very murky around the 2:20 version and again at 3:10 - I wold question why you need 4 guitars playing essentially the same thing.

They're not! Lol. The hard panned are playing the rhythm chords and the inner set is doing variations of it higher up the neck. It'll sound better once I have the levels and EQ set. Still a work in progress MJB, a work in progress.

Re: space, I just meant more "roomy". More air in the end rather seeming dense. No reason why 4 guitars can't playing...everything we've listened to growing up has at least that many. Still working on it. It'll be alright

 

[gecko zzed]

I like the song and I think the overall performance and arrangement is fine.

I think perceived lack of space has three main causes. The first is fairly obvious: there's too much going on. The second is that some instruments are commandeering the acoustic space (either becaue they are too loud or because they need some EQ sculpting). The third is that there are other problems that give the effect of the mix lacking in space.

In this track, I think all three are present to some degree. (1) The drum track is very busy, and maybe that's the particular feel you wanted, but I reckon you would not damage the song with a cleaner, steadier drum track.

(2) Towards the end of the song, I think you could afford to either lose some guitars or back them off a bit. Guitars are acoustically dense, and can easily overwhelm other stuff.

(3) There two other areas that may contribute to a sense of lack of space. The vocals have a kind of phasey effect at the start. This kind of swirling sound makes, in particular, the start of the song sound more cluttered. The delay stuff is fine. The double-tracked vocal after 2.00 on the other hand (and perversely) sounds fine. Where all the instruments kick in is the other area. I'm sensing a bit of timing tension, i.e. the instruments are not all sitting in the pocket. This is a really marginal thing, but it can be enough to create that sense of discomfort.

I had no problem with the level of the vocals. I like vocals that are up front, and I get annoyed with vocals that are too low and where the lyrics are almost buried.

 

[BroKen_H]

I had no problem with the level of the vocals. I like vocals that are up front, and I get annoyed with vocals that are too low and where the lyrics are almost buried.

^^^^This...and especially when the vocals sound as good as yours always do.

 

[andrushkiwt]

^^^^This...and especially when the vocals sound as good as yours always do.

On mobile. Hate the mobile abilities of this site sometimes. .

1. I should have titled this thread "room sound". I don't mean spacial arrangement. Not at all. Sometimes, especially for a track like this, that room sound is important and adds a nice element. I am beginning to think that unles you track in a room, it's not going to happen. Verb won't cut it. SD room mics won't cut it. The vocal verb isn't exactly it.

2. Thanks for pointing some things out...I realised that those verse/intro guitars are playing throughout the tune. They are swirly for the desired effect, but it is clogging up the middle and ending. I took them out right away noticed an improvement. Did some further EQ work on the heavy hard panned set. Sounding good now. So NOW there are only 2 sets of Gs later on in the tune.

 

[gecko zzed]

Verb won't cut it.

Verb will cut it . . . but you need the right room to start with.

If the room is colouring the sound too much, then added verb is just going to make it messier.

If the room is colouring the sound too much, then room mics are only going to make it worse.

If the room is neutral, then added verb will do its job.

 

[andrushkiwt]

Verb will cut it . . . but you need the right room to start with.

If the room is colouring the sound too much, then added verb is just going to make it messier.

If the room is colouring the sound too much, then room mics are only going to make it worse.

If the room is neutral, then added verb will do its job.

I don't know. I don't think adding verb will have the same feel as recording a live band in a good room. I'm using sims and SD2! It comes close.. Unless I work on the verb stuff. I think I've got a good handle on it though

 

[Farview]

I'm not in a position to listen right now, but one red flag was the 4 guitar parts. Try just muting the guitars that aren't hard panned. That should give you some space right there.

Basically, if you want to hear space, don't fill it all up with instrumentation.