Soundproof 1 Wall In City Loft - Help

[virtual]

Hey everyone,

I might be moving into a loft unit soon which is located in a pre-war city building. There is 1 wall that needs desperate help.

Everything is solid concrete except this 1 wall and I already know what is going to happen. What I am looking for is to soundproof this wall as much as possible. I'm not sure if I need to build a floating wall or is this sojmething I can do with nailing up some heavy vinyl type sheet and some 1" thick board over it.

The wall is approx 18x10. I know that noise is noise but just want to say this is not a live studio... all midi/computer/etc.. (1031a / 824's)

Also if anyone can give a ballpark figure as to what supplies (not labor) would be.. That would be great.

Thanks in advance

virtual

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello virtual, welcome to the board. An 18x 10 wall for a midi studio. Ok, you need to answer a couple of questions though. What is on the other side of the wall? Can you access the back side after building it for nailing drywall up?
If so this is what you will need.

4- 10' 2x4's for the top and bottom plates. Cut to fit.
16- 10' 2x4's for the studs and firestops. Cut to fit.

Figure on at least $5 per 10' 2x4. Prices vary wildly around the country. Ballpark figure about $100-$120

Now, depending on how much isolation you want, or if this is simply a screen, you can probably get away with ONE LAYER of drywall on each face if used as a simple partition wall. Thats 4 1/2 sheets of 4'x10' x 1/2" thick gypsum board(drywall) on each side of the wall for a total of 9 sheets. If you want better isolation, figure on TWO layers of 5/8"thick drywall on each face.
Thats a total of 18 sheets. AND plan on filling the stud cavities with batt type insulation too.

Ball park figure for 9 sheets 1/2" 4'x10'. About $70-80 I pay 7.40 per sheet.
Ball park figure for 18 sheets 5/8" 4'x10' About $120-$160

Insulation......your guess is good as mine. It comes in rolls, 16" wide. You will need about 120 linear feet. Call around for "pink" by Owens Corning. R-19 I think. Overall you are looking at about $300. Thats with no labor, no electrical, and no extras such as joint compound, tape, texture, fasteners etc. That will run about $50. Well, there is your ball park

On the other hand, IF you want extremely good isolation, and the rest of the room is already up to it, AND the wall itself is the defence against airborn noise within the building, you should really build a STAGGERED STUD WALL. Figure on changing the plates to 2x6, and alternately stagger the 2x4 studs. This will up the price about $20.

One word to the wise. The isolation value of a wall is only as good as the weakest link in the room. Cielings, doors, HVAC ducting, pipes, electircal conduits.....all can be a source of flanking for noise. You would be wise to invest in a few tubes of acoustical caulk, to seal all the joints in the drywall prior to taping, and at every joint in the room too. Your door MAY be a source
for air leakage around and under. Invest in some weatherstripping and a threshold with seal of some kind too. Just remember, "soundproof" is "airproof", which is actually a misnomer as there is no such thing as soundproof. Only levels of sound transmission loss. Just the same, you might want to check for ventilation sources too. Any HVAC?

Anyway, when you get this sealed up real good, since the room is mostly concrete walls, I'm sure you'll be back for treatment advice. We'll be here.
fitZ

 

[virtual]

Rick,

Wow! That has got to be the best, fastest and most helpful reply I have ever gotten since Al Gore invented the internet!

Now I am going to print this out, make my list and hit up Home Depot. Hopefull I can find someone in the Denver with experience to put this all together. Any clue how long it would take someone to get this up once everything is purchased? (excluding painting)

I pretty much get everything what you are saying but a little unclear with 1 thing.

On the other hand, IF you want extremely good isolation, and the rest of the room is already up to it, AND the wall itself is the defence against airborn noise within the building, you should really build a STAGGERED STUD WALL.

The wall that is already there is your basic sheetrock partition that buildings put up to seperate apartments/units. Its pretty hollow and I do not have access (legally ) to the other side (its some guys loft).The wall has no pipes or vents on it. Its just a flat plain hollow wall.

Again thanks for this reply.. good stuff

-virtual

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

There is 1 wall that needs desperate help.

Everything is solid concrete except this 1 wall and I already know what is going to happen. What I am looking for is to soundproof this wall as much as possible.

The wall that is already there is your basic sheetrock partition that buildings put up to seperate apartments/units. Its pretty hollow and I do not have access (legally ) to the other side (its some guys loft).The wall has no pipes or vents on it. Its just a flat plain hollow wall.

WHOOOOAAA! Wait a minute. I'm a little confused here. First off, are you building this wall IN FRONT OF AN EXISTING WALL?!!! This is of PRIME importance if it is. Please elaborate on this as I may have inadvertantly given you the wrong information. Don't ask why right now. It is technical, but has EVERYTHING to do with how you proceed from this point. AND your purchase.

In fact, please tell me exactly everything about the existing floor, the wall in question, the concrete walls, where the doors are, any windows, the ceiling....everything now. This is the only way you will make this wall perform to its potential.

I was under the impression you were simply partitioning off existing space, by building a NEW wall where none exists. This is extremely important. So let me know BEFORE you start on this, ok? Other wise, you might get a WORSE Low frequency transmission than you had without it.

BTW, thanks for the vote of confidence in my replys. Some would argue my contribution.

fitZ

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Now I am going to print this out, make my list and hit up Home Depot. Hopefull I can find someone in the Denver with experience to put this all together. Any clue how long it would take someone to get this up once everything is purchased? (excluding painting)

I could build, sheetrook and tape this wall in one day, given no murphys
Another 2 hours for the first layer of mud. Another 2 for sanding and prep, and another two for the second layer of mud. Another 2 for final prep, a layer of finish coat mud(different than standard joint compound). Depending on what you want this wall to look like when finished, such as covering with absorbers or such, or a standard texture finished wall, another 3 hours maybe.
Since you have to allow time for the mud to dry before putting the final coats on, and painting, I would guess you could do this over a 3 to 4 day period, depending on temperature and humidity. Maybe 2 if you were lucky.

BTW, you can buy spray cans of texture that really come out nice. About $14 per can though. Two cans should do it. It comes in "knock down" or "orange peel". I would suggest the "orange peel", as once its sprayed...done deal. Knock down requires a steady hand to drag joint blade across it to "flatten" the bumbs, but wait too long or if the temperature is high, it cures quick, and you might get half way done and it will dry out before finishing. Use the largest nozzle on the orange peel type. It comes out with a nice contemporary look. Just use your eye to how much you are covering in an even movement up and down the wall. Then, after that drys, go back across the wall horizontally for breaking up any straight line movements. Try it out on a large scrap piece of cardboard to see how much coverage of pattern you want.
One other thing. Buy a gallon of latex primer for a base coat prior to painting. It seals the wall board and texturing/joints. Makes for better finish coats.

fitZ

 

[virtual]

Rick,

Sorry to be all over the road here.. im a little stressed atm

There is already an existing wall. When I knock on it it is very hollow sounding. The people on the other side will definitly be angry if I don't treat it.

So I guess I need a rough list of supplies, time, cost (again.. ballpark) to build a wall in front of an already existing wall. I believe carpenters around where I am charge $35-$40 an hour. I would also like to use the "thick" board/sheetrock in this project. I guess the more mass the better?

Thanks again

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Sorry to be all over the road here.. im a little stressed atm

No prob, me too.

Ok, here is the deal. Since you didn't tell me what I asked I can't guarantee the maximum performance of this wall given certain conditions as sharing the same wood floor, common ducting, etc etc. However, here is something you need to know.
If you were to build a wall in front of the existing wall, with ONE face sheithed with drywall, what you would end up with is a THREE LEAF system. Not good. In fact, it could be worse than doing nothing in regards to low frequency transmission, which for all intents and purposes IS the predominant frequencies that transmitt through residential partitions.
So, this is what you need to do. It sounds to me like this is a rental, no? If so, it is highly unlikely that you could actually do what NEEDS to be done to the existing wall. Which is REMOVE the drywall on your side of the wall, PRIOR to building your new wall. See the illustration attached.

IF you could do this, and fill BOTH wall cavities with insulation, and then drywall the new wall on YOUR SIDE ONLY!! This would create the best you can possibly do under the circumstances as it would create a double wall TWO LEAF system. In fact, IF you were in a position whereby you could remove the existing drywall on your side, you could could then beef up THEIR leaf, by cutting drywall to fit BETWEEN the existing studs. TWO LAYERS THICK. You could ether use adhesive to adhere it to the back of THEIR drywall, or use 2x2 cleats to hold it in place, while caulking all joints of both layers. The point is to leave NO AIR between the back of their drywall leaf, and the layers of new drywall within the stud cavities. This would give a THREE layer leaf on their side, and a 3 layer leaf on your side. There is one other thing here. You NEED to position the new wall to gain the MAXIMUM depth between LEAFS that you can afford to loose in floor space. It is the mass of the leaves, and the airgap distance
that will determine the LOW FREQUENCY transmission loss. In other words, that resonant frequency point which below transmission occurs. The lower the better.
However, IF this is something you can't actually do, then the best thing you can do next, is drill 2 or 3- 4" or 5" holes in YOUR SIDE of the existing drywall. This will vent the airgap to THEIR leaf. Do this at each stud cavity, prior to building the new wall.

However, if this is STILL undoable, your only recourse is to beef up the mass on the new wall to at least 3 layers. Your low frequency transmission may stay the same or it may increase, I don't know, but mid and high frequency transmission should improve dramatically.

Once you decide which solution you can achieve, let me know and I will tell you more details pertinent to the solution.

As to price and materials. Figure the same material for framing via 2x4, but depending on which solution you chose, figure at least 15 sheets 4'x10' 5/8" drywall. If you CAN pull the existing drywall off of your side, add another 9 sheets to the list. And double the insulation linear footage to 300'. Well, I hope this helps. I'm really glad you posted that enlightenment. Whew!

Be aware though of my previous caveats regarding flanking paths. Also, don't build anything till you come back and let us know you have the materials. There are a few details I don't have time to tell you about right now. Well, good luck with Home Depot. Don't let them sell you any SOUND BOARD or anything like that. Oh, you might check on a roll of "sill foam", which is a product for sealing the plates before fastening them down. Otherwise acoustical caulk, or butyl rubber caulk will have to do.

Another area here is what the ceiling is like. We may have to do something here. Anyway, later



fitZ

 

[virtual]

Rick,

I wish I had your energy!! Let me ask real quick before I go messing up trying to explain the space heh.

Would this help if I just posted some pics? I could get into the space possibly tomorrow, take some pics, then post em. Let me know if this helps. Im thinking pics + photoshop + text would make it easier for me to explain.

Thanks

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

See the pic, I forgot to load it

Ok, pics, text explanation. later.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I wish I had your energy!!

You think At 60 its running out.

 

[virtual]

Rick,
Ok I have a few pics here now
-----
PHOTO 1:
This is the main problematic wall. Its super thin sheetrock. The floor , ceiling and other walls in the whole space are all concrete (except the partition wall in the middle.. see next)

PHOTO 2:
This is my new idea. This is a partition in the middle of the space which you can see the problematic wall in the backround. One side is the bedroom area and the other is my main space area.

(A) I was thinking of maybe putting a simple door here and build up the top of the ceiling so its closed.
(B) Here, to seal off this part, I was thinking maybe 2 pieces of glass/thick plastic. I'd like to keep it clear.
(C) Same as (A)


PHOTO 3:
This is where 1 door would go. You can see the problem wall in the backround

PHOTO 4:
This is where another door would go.

This is what I was thinking for the Door(s)

----------------

Ok I will be checking back here so let me know if there is more info you need. You rock I really appreciate all this help. You will need to go on my Xmas list !

-virtual

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello virtual. Virtual, I'd be out of character if I didn't say something here.
I'm glad you posted the pictures, for more than one reason. I believe, and I could be wrong, you are setting yourself up for some problems. Let me explain.

First off, is this an apartment that you are renting? Or a townhouse or something that you are buying? Either way, there is something in the picture that tells me something.

The first thing that comes to mind is the SPRINKLER SYSTEM As far as your new idea is concerned, experience tells me its not going to happen. This is why. When sprinkling systems are put in a building, they are there because the fire department has code precedence. What this means, is when the designer or owner of the building submitted plans for the building remodel, he not only has to get approval from the Building Inspection Department(BID), he had to get approval from the Fire Department also. They are the ones who stipulate things such as this, and egress, and occupancy loads and various other things. They can require that sprinkler systems be installed, and have the authority to inspect this building on a routine basis. They also tell a permit applicant the criteria for head placement. This is why you can't just build a wall that encloses space that is NOT sprinklered.

I'm no expert here, but this tells me three things. One, you can't arbitrarily subdivide space because of not only the sprinkler system, but HVAC too. Two, this is a multi-occupancy building, codes would probably be very strict. Three, I highly doubt if you could get permission to do this. Even if you did, you would have to get a permit, and I would almost guarantee that
BID would tell you to "show compliance" with such and such code regarding the sprinkler and HVAC. I could be totally wrong, and if I am, no big deal. But what I'm trying to tell you is to research this issue before you waste any more time on this idea.

When you mentioned you had a neighbor in a loft, that was the first alert to this scenario. Even building the new wall in front of an existing wall may require a permit. In fact, I can almost guarantee it, since this is in a multi occupancy building. That tells me either you are leasing, renting or maybe purchasing a condo. No matter, you still are jeaprodizing the lives of others when altering a space. Regardless how simple this sounds, there are codes governing its construction. Should you build this without AT LEAST checking with the building manager, or your local BID, you could be setting yourself up for possible fines, loss of lease, eviction or maybe even locking the space up with all your belongings in it. Suffice to say, I can't really allow myself to further recommend solutions to your problem, untill such time you can really clear this issue up. I'm a nobody here, yet it behooves me to bring this to your attention.

So, if you still need help from me, you need to satisfy my concerns before I can proceed to offer any more help. Sorry, hope this helps prevent trouble for you down the line, or even killing someone. Believe me, it HAPPENS. Thats why the codes exist.
fitZ

 

[virtual]

Rick,
Thanks for explaining this in detail. I cant describe where my head is at now.

My main problem now is I had only a 24 hour window to sign a lease, and I did. I Actually just called to see what would happen if I broke it and it will cost thousands of dollars to get out of it.

The building manager said I could do anything in there as long as it didnt rip anything down that was already in there. Im sure they didnt plan on me building walls.. so this is getting ugly.

If you look at picture 2.. the areas (A) and (B). I know if there was someway to seal/treat those areas somehow.. things would be much easier for me. I know it wouldnt be "soundproof" and Id have to adjust my mixing routiene.. but there has to be something I can do.

I have a carpenter/contractor coming tonight to see what my options are as far as staying within codes and all that. But now I dont even know what to tell him I need

So I have:
-signed lease
-can't break it
-no way I can mix as it stands now
-desperatly seeking some solution

Thanks again for alerting me to the problems.. Im glad i didnt rush out and buy anything just yet

So now what? Man this is not going well

 

[knightfly]

Virtual, there might be another way to "skin this cat" - without letting your landlord know you're doing it, you might check with your local Building dept to see if they have any MINIMUM sound isolation standards in place for rental units; if they do, there's a chance you could either use this to break your lease, or to force the owner to fix the "shoji panel" wall himself. Just a thought -

Either case would beat what's going on at the moment... Steve

 

[MadTiger3000]

Virtual, there might be another way to "skin this cat" - without letting your landlord know you're doing it, you might check with your local Building dept to see if they have any MINIMUM sound isolation standards in place for rental units; if they do, there's a chance you could either use this to break your lease, or to force the owner to fix the "shoji panel" wall himself. Just a thought -

Either case would beat what's going on at the moment... Steve

Innovative possible solution.

 

[virtual]

Rick,

Ok after some time with the construction guy... I am at the point where soundproofing is not an option. To be within codes to do what i want.. would cost me way too much money and time. For now I have to pretend that there is no such thing as "soundproof" (i miss my old studio )

This guy came up with something that would help reduce the noise I would be generating. Its a type of movable wall/door structure on wheels. They would fit snug and there would be barely any opening on the bottom as the casters would be sunken into the frame.

We are going with a 2x4 frame (maybe 2x6).. Sheetrock (5/8") on both sides. 1 Thing though.. what would be the best insulation for this>? What is the best to pack it with? Im trying to do this from Home Depots' inventory so 701-703-705 would not be available.

Theres an image below I just sketched quickly for some idea of whats going on here. I know this wont help "much" but Im thinking it will at least allow me to work at a somewhat tolerable level.

Let me know what you think

p.s. Guys thanks for the additional options those were creative
But lets hope this idea works 1st heh

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

This guy came up with something that would help reduce the noise I would be generating. Its a type of movable wall/door structure on wheels. They would fit snug and there would be barely any opening on the bottom as the casters would be sunken into the frame.

Hello virtuall, where theres a will, theres a way eh? Ok, tell me where you are placing these...ONE, OR TWO? Which area are we talking about? I assume the bedroom area as its the only one you can somewhat block off with these, in the doorways? The second thing, exactly what are we talking about in terms of generating sound, how loud are you talking and with what? If you are talking drums, I'm afraid you are fooling yourself. Vocals, acoustic guitar and maybe light electric guitars, in the bedroom with full height gobos in the doorways. Personally, I would put MDF on the frames as its heavier, and the edges don't half to be delt with like drywall. Stiffer too. But personally, I'd make it a perimeter frame only, no studs or partition supports. Shieth both faces with MDF panels, but line the interior with R-19 batt type insulation. If these are fitting inbetween the walls to enclose the bedroom space, maybe put some weatherstripping that overlaps. I'll draw the details later. Do you have a way to cut MDF, like a skill saw, and some hand tools for assembly? I'll tell you exactly what and how to do this if you want. Or you can give a drawing to the carpenter.

I can draw EXACTLY what you need IF you tell me where these are going, take pictures of the vertical areas that the end of the gobos will be touching, and measure EXACTLY the openings, both width and height. If this is for enclosing the bedroom, then we'll deal with those other openings too. Kind of like temporary baffles that you can take down. Anyway, as far as the existing partition wall between you and your neighbors, a gobo like this will do little, as sound will simply flank around the panels unless they TOTALLY fill the space in front of it, just like a real wall. The best thing to do, is use the bedroom space. Well, thats my NON EXPERT, NOT THERE TO SEE but this is what I'd do .02 Let me know and I'll try to help you more.

fitZ

 

[knightfly]

"there would be barely any opening on the bottom as the casters would be sunken into the frame."

As Rick said, don't expect any measurable amount of low frequency isolation here; "barely" is about the same as "big hole" where bass is concerned... Steve

 

[virtual]

If these are fitting inbetween the walls to enclose the bedroom space, maybe put some weatherstripping that overlaps. I'll draw the details later. Do you have a way to cut MDF, like a skill saw, and some hand tools for assembly? I'll tell you exactly what and how to do this if you want. Or you can give a drawing to the carpenter.
fitZ

That is exactly what I would like to do. There are 2 openings I want to block off with these partition thing. There is also a gap above the already existion partition I want to block off. With these 3 areas built out..the bedroom is now its "own room" and my work area is its "own room".

My carpenter was going to build out the gap (mentioned above) with some type of thick clear type sheets and fill them in with insulation. What would you suggest for a clear product besides glass? It would be two rows of clear stuff with a 1 foot gap and insulation inside (I would like to add puck lights inside but never mind the tacky stuff now ).

As far as the tools, hes got them all I'd imagine. He says what I want is easy for him to do.

Knightfly mentioned the gap underneath with the coasters and letting sound out.. I dont know what to do about this because I would like them to be movable. They were going to have a large handle on them so I could slide them when needed.

I attached 2 more pictures with dimensions. A rough sketch would be great. I would really appreciate it

Thanks Rick & knightfly

Quick Edit:
Just to mentin again incase I lost ya.. The reason to block off the bedroom from the main area is because at this point it seems the easiest way to prevent some sound traveling through the bedroom wall/neighbor wall.

Also this is a midi/digital setup (Genelec/Mackie and no subs).. no live drums, guitar, etc..

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Well, heres ONE idea. Its all I had time for today.
fitZ