Song Structuring..

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I write the lyrics first so I have to have some sort of structure to build my chord progressions when I add music.

I'm a little confused by some of the posts. Do some people write with no structure at all or are they saying they start to write without a set structure in mind?

For me, I have a general idea of where I want to go with the lyrics and music, so that helps me decide on a structure. My "story" songs tend to end up being AABA or AAAB or one of mine is AABAABA. Most have an instrumental section to break things up.

The majority of my songs are either VCVCVC or VCVCBC. Some may start with the Chorus or end with a tag or include a pre-chorus. It really depends on the requirements of the lyric to tell the story and build to some sort of conclusion.
 
dreamweaver said:
I'm a little confused by some of the posts. Do some people write with no structure at all or are they saying they start to write without a set structure in mind?
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I think, for the most part, the latter.
 
I play solo guitar. So I write guitar compositions, no vocals.

Intro section
Main theme section
Meander sections
Bridge sections
End section

My guide so far is to sing the tune out. Then I will arrive at some sequence of chords and melody and that will be an important section usually. That first section usually ends up being my main theme, that might be compared to a chorus or hook. Then using singing as a guide again, I will write other sections and meander, I usually find ways of getting back into the main theme section from a meander section with a bridge. Sometimes I might use an intro and end section too.

Bill Evans, the pianist, this is the sort of style i like to base composition on, and maybe perform it with some degree of improvisation.
 
I really dont think you should have any formula/structure that you stick to for every song. Let the song dictate how it sounds.
At the moment I have a little obsession with doing everything to avoid the usual verse/chorous routine..in fact avoiding chorouses at all...my latest effort is simply; Part A, Part B, Part C. (its in the mp3 mixes section )
 
Im not a big fan of verse-chorus stuff. At most some line and part might be repeated once later in a song but going back to choruses again and again is really annoying to me. I just don't think its genuine. Is the one lyric that important and awesome and eep that it needs to be hammered home that hard? Yes, meatloaf, we know... you'll do anything for love but wont do that...lets do the time warp again... and again... and again... and again...Hooks happen wherever, not just in some La-la-la rhyming repeat bit you throw in every 8 or 16 bars I just can't stand that.
 
ya I agree with ramshackle amd more or less with most people here , let the song flowfrom your heart and worry less about methods and technics...when you are in a rutt, and trying to pus yourslef.. a good structure base and singing / writing tricks really DO help.
 
I think the best way to get into song structures is to LISTEN to a lot of great songs! :-)
 
Here's something of which I'm very knowledgeable.

Firstly, everyone has made some very good comments. Some
very good comments.

What's the purpose of the song? Do you want to make a
million dollars or impress critics and starve? That means do you
want people to tap their feet and hum your tune or not?

You're going to write tunes using a certain formula. That's what
happens in the music biz. I doesn't matter if it's country,
progressive, jazz, rock or younameit. There's going to be a
formula. I'm currently transcribing some tunes to sheet music
and each (original) composer has a formula. I don't believe they
realize it, but they do. There are favorite keys, how they phrase
a line, the chords used, interludes, etc... They may sound
different, to some extent, but they all have a formula. My
thoughts are that you have a formula and you need to figure out
what it is. Maybe a music major can tell you.

Tip: Learn to count 8 measures in 4/4 or 3/4. If you do that
you'll have learned 1/2 of a music degree. LOL NOT but close.

The melody is the single most important element. Without a
good melody it's only going to be something you'll use to to fill
the rest of your project. A typical ratio for a hit LP is 1 hit and
10 filler tunes. I tell my students to write a tune a day.
Something is going to happen even if it sounds like Twinkle.
Remember, some of your tunes are going to stink. Get over it.
Keep writing!

Next comes the rhythm. Is it rock 'n' roll? Latin? Punk? Metal?
What the tempo? Fast or slow? Ballad or head banger?

The chord progression should be such that non-music people can
digest it. Everyone hears the blues progression and it's alternatives.
Everybody likes the blues. BUT, and it's a big but, what's working
right now in your genre?

AABA is probably the most common hit formula in the business.
Each A section is typically 8 measures as is the B. There's
hardly a song writer alive that hasn't used this formula and that
goes for metal bands as well. Yes, their are exceptions but don't
dwell on the exceptions. What's making money at the moment?
What's the form? It will have a form.

Remember this, you aren't going to sound like anyone else even
if you play their songs so don't ever worry about sounding like
anyone else because you won't. Think of all the groups that
have tried to copy the Beatles.

Lastly...

Never, under any circumstances, put the name of your Girl/Boy
Friend anywhere in the song. Never. You're going to break up
and you're going to have a great song you can't stand. Right a
tune that you can add anyone's name to and use it instead of
writing a new song for every date, see the movie Pillow Talk with
Rock Hudson and Doris Day.
 
Most common: verse, chorus, verse, bridge, chorus.

But now i'm trying songs with NO chorus. the whole thing builds and tells a story. between each verse will be a musical interlude.
light intro
quiet verse
mid interlude
mid verse
heavier interlude
mid verse
heaviest interlude
quietest verse
building interlude
heaviest verse
heavy outro
 
AlecBeretz said:
Most common: verse, chorus, verse, bridge, chorus.

But now i'm trying songs with NO chorus. the whole thing builds and tells a story. between each verse will be a musical interlude.
light intro
quiet verse
mid interlude
mid verse
heavier interlude
mid verse
heaviest interlude
quietest verse
building interlude
heaviest verse
heavy outro
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Is each section going to be different? Will each be the same while building
each time?
 
Prunepicker said:
You're going to write tunes using a certain formula. That's what happens in the music biz. It doesn't matter if it's country, progressive, jazz, rock or you name it. There's going to be a formula.
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When one uses terms like 'formula' it can sound like one is saying that the creation is stuck in an unoriginal rut. Actually formula seems to be related to 'form' and all pieces of music, even the most meandering improvisation or avant garde thrashing has form. It may be hard to follow, it may be near impossible to find, but it's there.
So writing to a formula is by no means a negative. There are plenty of formulas in song creation that enable the writers and performers to shake things up and stay fresh. Houses, cars, computers and guitars are all made to formula. And look how much scope and originality you find there......
 
I've been compiling all my written songs in one notebook and trying to compare.. I see I use a lot of the same "formula" to write songs. I'd like to stray away. It just seems this is what always has come easiest. I personally think to increase my ability as a novice song writer I need to be able to write in different ways... I need the soul of John Lennon to possess me..
 
John and Paul wrote about any and every thing. Nothing was
ignored though it might not have been put on a record. The
White album is a fine example of that. Silly songs, nonsense,
blues & ballads. Even an attempt at Stockhausen.

I'm not meaning to ignore the efforts of George and Ringo.
 
I prefer "method" rather than "formula" for this discussion...

Formula implies they're all the same structurally...
 
Yeah, method is actually the word. As for being possessed by John Lennon, he was a verse, middle 8 and chorus man. Wildly original, yes. But a slave to form like the rest of us. But if you vary the way you write and use several methods/ formulas, then you won't be stuck in a groove.
 
grimtraveller said:
Yeah, method is actually the word. As for being possessed by John Lennon, he was a verse, middle 8 and chorus man. Wildly original, yes. But a slave to form like the rest of us. But if you vary the way you write and use several methods/ formulas, then you won't be stuck in a groove.
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I sometimes start with a method, but it's unintentional. After hearing it a few times I try to rewrite it so that it is less predictable, but even that has become somewhat predictable. Lately, I have been listening to music with unusual time signatures and trying to incorporate it. It feels awkward at first, but then you start to appreciate it. What I find fascinating is that my short go at home recording has began challenging me as a musician...I ask myself- is this what I really want to put on track? I'm starting to take myself as a songwriter more seriously. A good analogy might be someone who scribbles on paper (an easily disposed of, casual medium) verses someone who sculpts in bronze. The bronze sculptor is going to know in the back of his/her mind that what they are doing is for posterity. It plays a role.
 
I think it's best to start with what works... ABABCB, or AABA... Use them, and know them inside & out... THEN if you want to break the rules, go ahead and do it from there... but know the rules before you break 'em! : )
 
I don't think song structure should be decided from the offset, when I write I like to see what follows next naturally and then take a step back and see if it fits overall. I find chord structures and dissonances etc much more interesting. I've never thought "wow that song has a great structure" only "wow that song had the best chord change or melody or whatever".
 
Think about the joke that you remember and the people that can deliver a joke or story that catches and holds your attention. Intro(have you heard the one about...) the hook, attention everyone I have something important to tell you. Verse, tell a little about the story but do not give away the punch line until verse 3 or 4. Chorus, the common theme to tie the parts together, create a desire to hear more, and when heard the second, third, etc, time gives the listener something to feel like they know the song already. Verse 3 the gotch ya, the punch line, the emotion mover. The last verse, this song was written for you, thanks for listening and please come back again old friend. Ever heard the same joke several times and still laughed, the same story or movie and enjoyed it?
 
Much like singing it is always best when it feels easy, from the heart and not the head. That's where you find your soul. All of that stuff in your head was put there, often by others.
 
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