solid vs tubes in metal

[marioantigod]

guys,

i have a laney tf400, 120w, hybrid amp.

could u please explain and maybe with examples, what is the difference between solid state and tube amp when playing heaviest metal music. does still tubes make a big advantage when hurricane distortions are used? how to get closer to it if solid state amp is used. which solid amps are better, lively and musically sounding, just as a quick reference to compare.
or tubes become almost unnoticeable vs solid state when metal is considered? maybe u have good links to similar info? i hope for rational and constructive opinions. not like:
"i love tubes, i sleep with a tube under my pants, they are the best, no music can be made without tubes, tube is real, tubes or nothing!".
would be perfect to hear from those who thrash with solid state in the studio, recording.
help me to grip, hear and understand the main difference here.

also we r talking here about how to record heavy guitar so the desired signature sound can be achieved after mics.

thank u very muchos gracies. and happy new year!

 

[pipelineaudio]

Depends a lot on the type of sound you are after. The feel based dynamic part of tube preamps are absent in a lot of the more compressed sounds, and can be done fine with transistors.

Even for styles of metal requiring tube distortion for the nuances, power tube behaviour is often more of a burden than a help.

 

[bozmillar]

It really depends on the amp. Some tube amps sound great for metal, some sound really bad. Some solid state amps sound great for metal, some sound really bad.

Usually when people say tubes=good solidState=bad, they form their opinion becuase they heard one tube amp that sounded good and one solid state amp that sounded bad. You can't really lump all tube amps into one category and all solid state amps into another one.

 

[miroslav]

IMO...if you're going to reduce your guitar sound to a homogonized buzzzzzzzzzzzz...
...you probably don't even need an amp for recording.
Just use one of those digital sims.

 

[Farview]

That depends on which brand of 'the heaviest metal music' you are talking about.

Pantera: solid state
Dimmu Borgir: tubes
Slipknot: tubes
Metallica: tubes

You are going to have to narrow it down a bit.

What most people don't realize is that a lot of those 'scooped' guitar sounds aren't scooped until the mix. They are also not as distorted as they seem. Any time you take a crunchy guitar tone with a decent amount of mids and suck out 15db of 1k, it will sound like it has more gain.

 

[marioantigod]

The feel based dynamic part of tube preamps are absent in a lot of the more compressed sounds, and can be done fine with transistors.

i hear the same often. bigger distortion, less tube qualities needed.
where can i find sound samples to get an idea of those differences? to be able to compare and decide if i need tubes and what im missing without them.

thanks

 

[marioantigod]

1. What most people don't realize is that a lot of those 'scooped' guitar sounds aren't scooped until the mix.
2. They are also not as distorted as they seem. Any time you take a crunchy guitar tone with a decent amount of mids and suck out 15db of 1k, it will sound like it has more gain.

please explain me in detail all above. i have boss ge7.
coul u give me bunch of PRO online resources about recording heavy staff. especially guitar.
thanks mate

 

[Farview]

please explain me in detail all above. i have boss ge7.
thanks mate

Which part don't you understand?

Most scooped guitar tones that you hear on CD aren't scooped coming out of the amp. The amp has a more midrangey, crunchy sound. During the mixing process, the mids are removed and that leaves you with a scooped sound that sounds like it's more distorted.

Here are just the raw guitars from a Lacuna Coil song, listen to what they sound like compared to the mixed track. The raw guitars have much more midrange and don't seem as distorted.

Lacuna guitars
Lacuna finished mix

 

[Farview]

Just to add to that, recording a metal guitar tone isn't that hard. The big trick is figuring out what the guitar needs to sound like in the room, before it goes through the mics and compressors and EQ's, etc...

If the sound coming out of your amp already sounds like a CD, you have screwed yourself. The guitar sound always sounds more raw coming out of the amp and gets more processed sounding in the mix. If you start with something that is processed sounding, it won't mic very well and it won't sit in a mix.

 

[marioantigod]

The big trick is figuring out what the guitar needs to sound like in the room, before it goes through the mics and compressors and EQ's, etc...
The guitar sound always sounds more raw coming out of the amp and gets more processed sounding in the mix.

how? what is that "needs to sound like in the room" or "more raw"??
more mids, less distortion?? no effects before the mic??

how will i later achieve the sound i really like from the amp (that "cd sound") if the amp has to be dialed in different way before mic'ing?

from my knowledge, my way would be to find my "cd sound" on my amp and then to add or remove something that is needed to achieve the same sound after the mic. but what should i change or add to achieve it?? i know that less distortion lets to avoid the mud. and more mids helps to cut through. after my sound searching i found that i use mids more then anyone in this world. mids give me that breaking glass shimmer and growling all over the guitar. i use boss ge7 and cs3 before my amp to dial the distortion character. i would use any other effects after the mic, i mean through the mixer.

how to dial my amp so i could have as many options/helpers as possible to get/return to my sound after the mics????????
thank u.

 

[Farview]

Did you listen to the audio I posted?


Anyway, the easiset way to dial in the sound of the amp is to put the cabinet in another room and mic it up. I generally use a 57 pointed at where the dust cap meets the cone. (that is my default starting point, sometimes I move it if I need to)

Have the amp in the control room with you and run a long speaker cable to the cabinet.

Listening to the studio monitors, dial in the sound on the amp.

That's all there is to it.

 

[miroslav]

Fairview is giving you the "shortcut" ...follow his steps and you will end up with something you like.

Another way is to just spend some time recording with different mics, positions, amp settings until you begin to learn what each of the choices sounds like...that's all there really is to it.

Just do it...learn some for youself...you'll be able to use that knowledge later on, and the settings that don't work for Metal, you will remember for other stuff.

 

[marioantigod]

Listening to the studio monitors, dial in the sound on the amp.
That's all there is to it.

ok. i use sm57.

what r the main reasons that record sounds different from what u hear from an amp? what r common errors or best helpers to fix problems with that mismatch. what fools mics? i know that too much highs makes heavy guitars suffer and also too much lows are not good when mixed with hell low bass. true?

also i read:
http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html#room
about amp setup. that guy tell about stronger speaker movement and cabinent resonance. im not a best english speaker, so its hard to get those things clear.
maybe u know about such things and could explain in pure english?

many thanks.

 

[miroslav]

what r the main reasons that record sounds different from what u hear from an amp?

Your ears are not the same as ANY mic.
You are listening to the amp & cab in a room...the mic is sending the signal to a preamp and to other gear, and then those electric signals are being mixed together and played back out through your monitors (which are NOT the same as your guitar cab).

It's good that you are reading a lot of stuff and asking a lot of questions about fine details...but it may be best for you to also just experiment...try different things and learn what every change gives you.

You will find what you are looking for if you spend enough time looking for it.

 

[Farview]

what r the main reasons that record sounds different from what u hear from an amp?

The mic has a sound, the preamp has a sound. If you move the mic 2 inches in any direction, it changes the sound. The guitar sound you think you want might not work in the mix with all the other instruments.

what r common errors or best helpers to fix problems with that mismatch. what fools mics?

The most common error is thinking that getting a CD sound out of a guitar cabinet is a good guitar tone. It just doesn't work that way. It's like taking a picture of a picture, it won't be the same as taking a picture of the original thing.

There is no way to fool a mic. All mics sound different and that sound will be part of anything recorded with that mic.

i know that too much highs makes heavy guitars suffer and also too much lows are not good when mixed with hell low bass. true?

Yes, but that is because a guitar sound with too much highs and/or lows would be a bad sound in the first place.

also i read:
http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html#room
about amp setup. that guy tell about stronger speaker movement and cabinent resonance. im not a best english speaker, so its hard to get those things clear.
maybe u know about such things and could explain in pure english?

He is just explaining why things sound the way they do. It doesn't matter, you just need to experiment a little to see what works for you.

I might be able to point you in the right direction if you would tell me what type of sound you are looking for. What band do you want to sound the most like?

 

[NYMorningstar]

what r common errors or best helpers to fix problems with that mismatch.

A common error is recording with too much distortion coming from the amp. The solution is simply record with less distortion than you think you need. Eventually you will hit the nail on the head. Experiment, experiment, experiment and you'll learn what not to do faster.

 

[marioantigod]

The most common error is thinking that getting a CD sound out of a guitar cabinet is a good guitar tone. It just doesn't work that way.

sorry i cant get it. what do u mean by "cd sound". too many effects and processing before the mic?
what do u mean "raw"? without effects? or more boosted signal to help mic to catch a good sound? more boosted mids? what?
i listened to your lacuna guitars. one is just naked amp sound, another is just eq'ed mix.

i find the distortion and tone i want on my amp using only ge7 and cs3 before the input.
so, is this "cd" or "not cd" sound, i dont know? i just like it, so i record it. after that i just try to fine tune what i got using multitrack software and finally add effects to embellish and thicken the sound. i have a vision of my sound so i cant say what i would like to imitate. i just go for what i see. btw i dont record in pro studio. i use only audio interface and my mac.

and if im not satisfied with the sound after the mic, i adjust distortion amount, frequencies, mic position or the way of playing.

is this all i can do?

thanks guys.

 

[mixsit]

I don't 'do metal per say just to get that out of the way.
But you are bouncing around in here with things that are common to almost all recording.
a) Get the sound as close as possible at the recording source
b) Leave it raw, don't box yourself in at the source recording

Ok. Both are true. Conflict? What's up here.

a) is just a best guess. The better you are at it and the clearer the vision from the start the better the guess.
b) Depending on above, caution is warranted. This means basically unless you are one sharp mofo, most of us don't really know it all about what will happen when all the tracks are in and you're finessing to the final vision do we.

Most scooped guitar tones that you hear on CD aren't scooped coming out of the amp. The amp has a more midrangey, crunchy sound. During the mixing process, the mids are removed and that leaves you with a scooped sound that sounds like it's more distorted.

Beyound the methodology he is offering here I believe part of the result of what Farveiw is saying (at least it would sure as hell affect me playing guitar) is that having less mush on you amp, more sting in the middle means you have to (and can!) work it harder. You, the way the amp responds -the recording- everything has more balls to begin with.


Cherish thy edge. Do not squander your transients.

Always give me tracks with punch and attitude to spare thank you!
How will I get my mix compressors, rhythm sections to pump if you hand me the pre made mush of a 'CD'?

 

[marioantigod]

Always give me tracks with punch and attitude to spare thank you!

poetic and beautiful and useful. all in one. thanks guys.

now please let me remind u about my very first question about tubes.
where can i hear the example to get a clear understanding of differences between solid and tubes. i want clearly see if tubes have advantages when distorted, metal hell is considered.
i never played tubes, only tube preamp. does power tubes offer something better than solid state in metal?
where can i hear that difference clearly?
thank u boyz.

 

[miroslav]

where can i hear that difference clearly?

The only place worth hearing it is live...in your room.
Listening to sound clips on some website in some crappy MP3 format, done by who knows who and how...is not going to really do it for you.

One of the real important aspects about a tube guitar amp is how it breathes and interacts with you as you play. It's not just about the end result.
You can even make simulated amps sound decent and hard to pick out in a recording...BUT...a tube amp is all about the PLAYER and how the tube amp reacts to his playing, his touch...not to mention, how the amp reacts to the speaker load.

You don't get any of that with a solid state amp...you just get the end result, and IMO, just like digital sims, it will often sound very "homogenized"...not "organic" like a tube amp sounds.
Of course, you can usually mask the homogenized amp fairly well in some mixes...so it's you, for the player, who a tube amp really matters.

There isn't a solid state amps that I've played that didn't sound like a solid state amp. I've only owned one SS amp...and that only lasted about 2 weeks. It sounded pretty good initially, but after a few days, the “homogenized” quality of the distortion became apparent to my ears. For clean playing, the SS was OK…but why bother, I could get both clean and great distortion with tube amps…and they play and feel like they are alive.

YMMV...