Software Piracy Policy - with alternatives!

jimmys69

MOODerator
Dear Setanta.

Y'know, that's one of those lovely theories until you start looking at the actual facts and seeing the REASONS for the use of knock-offs. A piece of music software turns up on 4 DVDS in a box. No manual - it's a PDF on a DVD. Cost of 4 blank DVDs, retail - £1, Brit money. Cost of printing a box, again retail - about 30 Brit pence. So you've just paid several hundreds of whatever currency you use to buy £1.30's worth of raw materials.

Now THAT kinda markup is something even Apple's Steve Jobs would applaud, rest him in peace.

I don't mind paying for something. I DO, however, object to being right royally ripped off. I know you've gotta put development costs onto the price - but don't forget the development costs for Version 2 are being met from the profits from Version One and so on. Now if you could buy something for £1.30 - less than 3 bucks - and sell it for over $300, you'd howl if your profits were being eaten into. But the fact is, they're grossly overdone in the first place.

Smuggling's always been for the same reason - people refusing to be ripped off for something. If they see the price as fair, they're less likely to buy the smugglers' wares. As soon as software companies stop their huge rip-offs in the name of 'profit', the sooner the smugglers - 'pirates' - will look less inviting. At the moment, if you want to write computer music, they're often our greatest resource.

Yours respectfully

Chris.

I will disagree here a bit. I find that the software that I use, is well worth the money I paid for it. If there were not a market for such software, then it wouldn't exist. I make money using Cubase, and the bulk of VST software that I paid for. I am not on a welfare program, so I do not see it fit to take handouts, nor steal to make money.

I myself own a tile installation business as well as the studio. My income there is drastically reduced due to others doing the work at a lesser price. Not pirating, but it has the same result. I can't continue to give the quality of work, without compromising somewhere. Would you rather have inferior product/software because the developers cant make a profit? IMO, Software is actually damn cheap, considering what it takes to produce it. If you cant come up with the money to create a business, or finance a hobby, then collect stamps or something that doesn't infringe on your ability to smoke crack.

The amount someone is willing to invest in their craft, is directly relative to how relevant they are at it. Pirates generally seem to be those that like to take advantage. Real talent does not cut corners, nor beg or steal to make music. They do not need to.
 
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Track Rat

Dungeon Studio
Hmmmm....you're not paying for a CD or DVR, you're paying for the time it took somone to INVENT the program you're using. They didn't knock it out in an afternoon. Your comments don't hold water. At all.
 

Setanta

New member
So you're saying that the latest Hollywood blockbuster, which cost the studio $200M to make is being released on DVD that cost $2 to make so that justifies using pirated software? ;) That's a rather simplistic view of things, if you don't mind me saying. Nobody likes to be ripped off. Myself included. I use Cubase. Love it - it's a great piece of software that does what I need it to do, effortlessly. It's priced at €609 on Steinberg's website. I bought mine about a year ago for €220. Okay, I had to pay €50 to upgrade from 6.0 to 6.5 a while back but still, that's a saving of €400, just by using the educational version. Endorsed by Steinberg. And the real deal too - not a slimmed down version!

Steinberg, and the other software producers, are a business. They sell stuff to make money. I sometimes buy/sell audio gear. By your logic, if I go to some dude's house to buy some audio equipment, decide when I get there that it's way overpriced, that, as soon as his back is turned, I can help myself to his gear and leave? No, it's called stealing. Doesn't make it any less palatable if it's a large corporation. Stealing is stealing is all I'm saying. :listeningmusic:
 

gecko zzed

Grumpy Mod
Smuggling's always been for the same reason - people refusing to be ripped off for something. If they see the price as fair, they're less likely to buy the smugglers' wares. As soon as software companies stop their huge rip-offs in the name of 'profit', the sooner the smugglers - 'pirates' - will look less inviting.

Others have challenged aspects of your argument.

I agree that "Smuggling's always been for the same reason", but it's not the reason you say. Instead it is the same reason you accuse the software companies of, i.e. profit. The smugglers maximise their profits through not having to create anything. They just steal someone else's effort.
 

Doctor Varney

Cave dwelling Luddite
- Used software. Good deals here, as many people seemed to have switched software recently, which only used to happen very rarely, and people had to keep all their old versions to upgrade.

In effect to sales, I can't imagine it's any different to pirating it. Except software pirates don't usually make money on it and pirated software doesn't entitle the user to upgrading deals.

Would you rather have inferior product/software because the developers cant make a profit?

The surprising truth about what motivates us...?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc
 
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jimmys69

MOODerator
In effect to sales, I can't imagine it's any different to pirating it. Except software pirates don't usually make money on it and pirated software doesn't entitle the user to upgrading deals.



The surprising truth about what motivates us...?
RSA Animate - Drive: The surprising truth about what motivates us - YouTube

I really like those RSA Animate videos. Great way to stick things in the head! Especially for the focus challenged like my kids. Oh, and myself at times. :)
 

guitaristic

prophet of Dave
Dear Setanta.

Y'know, that's one of those lovely theories until you start looking at the actual facts and seeing the REASONS for the use of knock-offs. A piece of music software turns up on 4 DVDS in a box. No manual - it's a PDF on a DVD. Cost of 4 blank DVDs, retail - £1, Brit money. Cost of printing a box, again retail - about 30 Brit pence. So you've just paid several hundreds of whatever currency you use to buy £1.30's worth of raw materials.

Now THAT kinda markup is something even Apple's Steve Jobs would applaud, rest him in peace.

I don't mind paying for something. I DO, however, object to being right royally ripped off. I know you've gotta put development costs onto the price - but don't forget the development costs for Version 2 are being met from the profits from Version One and so on. Now if you could buy something for £1.30 - less than 3 bucks - and sell it for over $300, you'd howl if your profits were being eaten into. But the fact is, they're grossly overdone in the first place.

Smuggling's always been for the same reason - people refusing to be ripped off for something. If they see the price as fair, they're less likely to buy the smugglers' wares. As soon as software companies stop their huge rip-offs in the name of 'profit', the sooner the smugglers - 'pirates' - will look less inviting. At the moment, if you want to write computer music, they're often our greatest resource.

Yours respectfully

Chris.

:facepalm:

Yeah, just forget the millions of man-hours it took the software developers to actually invent the software.


What a joke. I hope someone using the same stupid philosophy rips you off one day :)
 

Doctor Varney

Cave dwelling Luddite
Chrisulrich said:
Smuggling's always been for the same reason - people refusing to be ripped off for something. If they see the price as fair, they're less likely to buy the smugglers' wares.

Actually, I think it's more likely that people who use pirated software had no intention of ever buying the product in the first place. There are even £49 titles that are being pirated. Pirating can be both an economic position and a state of mind.

guitaristic said:
What a joke. I hope someone using the same stupid philosophy rips you off one day

I think you might find you already have been...
 

grimtraveller

If only for a moment.....
Robbing Hood.

Y'know, that's one of those lovely theories until you start looking at the actual facts and seeing the REASONS for the use of knock-offs. A piece of music software turns up on 4 DVDS in a box. No manual - it's a PDF on a DVD. Cost of 4 blank DVDs, retail - £1, Brit money. Cost of printing a box, again retail - about 30 Brit pence. So you've just paid several hundreds of whatever currency you use to buy £1.30's worth of raw materials.
I'm actually simultaneously amazed and amused that people genuinely believe this. What you put your product in or on has nothing to do with it's innate and actual value.
Can you imagine secret agents refusing to go on dangerous life threatening missions to retrieve a vital piece of microfilm that could bring down governments by saying "it can't be that important. It's a cheap £2 piece of film !" :D
Smuggling's always been for the same reason - people refusing to be ripped off for something.
Smugglers have always risked their freedom in smuggling because they can make money from smuggling, not because they are possessed of the mythical Robin Hood spirit ! It's often contraband stuff that is smuggled and sold relatively cheaply though this isn't always the case.
If they see the price as fair, they're less likely to buy the smugglers' wares. As soon as software companies stop their huge rip-offs in the name of 'profit', the sooner the smugglers - 'pirates' - will look less inviting.
I think that reveals a pure view of human nature that everyday experience and world history simply denies. Reaper sells at a pittance. There are still people that will not shell out $60 for it and keep the trial version that you're not supposed to use after 30 or whatever days.

Software is actually damn cheap, considering what it takes to produce it.
Even 20 years ago, when I started recording on multitracks, equipment was expensive. One of the great blessings and curses of home recording is that it is so cheap to record. I bet you those that use cracked software don't have lame trainers, ripped up clothes that are too small or go hungry every day.

Hmmmm....you're not paying for a CD or DVR, you're paying for the time it took somone to INVENT the program you're using. They didn't knock it out in an afternoon. Your comments don't hold water. At all.
When I first got VSTis, I remember thinking that having a whole orchestra at my disposal saved me an absolute fortune and I marvelled that for £100 I had access to stuff that would have cost hundreds of thousands of pounds and which I could never realistically have a) afforded b) had access to and c)had room to store ! That such instruments {for example} exist on 4 DVDs is good reason to pay up.
Hats off to these guys !

I agree that "Smuggling's always been for the same reason", but it's not the reason you say. Instead it is the same reason you accuse the software companies of, i.e. profit. The smugglers maximise their profits through not having to create anything. They just steal someone else's effort.
No, no Gekko, smugglers do the public at large a great service. They bring to life the spirit of Robin Hood. They're such nice people. Their logic is flawless and impeccable !

Actually, I think it's more likely that people who use pirated software had no intention of ever buying the product in the first place. There are even £49 titles that are being pirated.
I think this is closer to the truth.
Pirating can be both an economic position and a state of mind.
More the latter though. I agree that in some parts of the world where there really is stark poverty, there'll be use of pirated software and one can understand this. But I'd happilly bet that many of those users don't carry on using cracked stuff once they're able to make a little money.
It's often a state of mind. Three years ago, I went to a well equipped studio for a Cubase lesson and the guy could not get my copy of Cubase SE to connect with my MIDI keyboard. We tried everything. His keyboards worked with my stuff, my keyboard worked with his but mine wouldn't work with mine {even though it had done so for 4 years}. In the end, he offered me a cracked copy of the latest Cubase {it was 5, I think}. He assured me that it would be OK. I declined {I bought my own copy later that night and still have it} but what was interesting was that he had that "stick it to 'the man' " viewpoint that alot of people involved with music have had since the 60s.
 

Doctor Varney

Cave dwelling Luddite
Well, it's very simple for me. If it hadn't been for the cracks, I'd never have got into electronic music at all. It just never occurred to me I'd ever want to do music ever. But someone gave it to me, it was there and I found I enjoyed using it. Now the software company has a new customer. And so do some hardware companies, as when the bug bit me, there was plenty of other stuff to buy. Did I feel bad then? Not in the slightest. Do I feel good now? Hell yes! Paying for it was the only way to get upgrades and all the new features and I'm delighted with what I've got for the money. Should they feel bad towards me? No, because in my case, it is precisely because of a crack they gained a new customer.
 
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grimtraveller

If only for a moment.....
More the latter though. I agree that in some parts of the world where there really is stark poverty, there'll be use of pirated software and one can understand this. But I'd happilly bet that many of those users don't carry on using cracked stuff once they're able to make a little money.

Well, it's very simple for me. If it hadn't been for the cracks, I'd never have got into electronic music at all. It just never occurred to me I'd ever want to do music ever. But someone gave it to me, it was there and I found I enjoyed using it. Now the software company has a new customer. And so do some hardware companies, as when the bug bit me, there was plenty of other stuff to buy. Did I feel bad then? Not in the slightest. Do I feel good now? Hell yes! Paying for it was the only way to get upgrades and all the new features and I'm delighted with what I've got for the money. Should they feel bad towards me? No, because in my case, it is precisely because of a crack they gained a new customer.
That's kind of the point I was making above. You shouldn't feel bad about it because you haven't carried on down that path. I'd be saying something different if you were of the opinion that you ain't paying for anything.
 

rayc

retroreprobate
I'm impressed by Reaper/Cockos business model: Trust, Honest & Value For Money.
It certainly won't make them super rich but it may make them a living.
That used to be the plan once upon a time: set up shop & make a living. These days it's "make a killing" get out & get away.
I downloaded Reaper and used it for a complete project.
I found I really liked it.
I paid for it.
Simple.
I could afford to pay for it.
I appreciated their approach to the distribution of their stuff.
I liked it. I sort of needed it.
I made paypal a few cents in the process.
I have de/evolved to a state where I haven't many qualms about "try before you buy" in a lot of instances - well, those instances are where it's an option I suppose.
That is predicated on buying if I like it/need it/require it & so forth.
I can see that I leave scope for piracy in doing that way.
I also buy second hand quite a bit. There's a problem with that business model - not with the law so much - but with the businesses involved in producing & selling the item when new.
Digital music distributors seem to have worked that one out - a track bought from iTunes belongs to the buyer but cannot be reproduced, copied for other machines or passed on to ones friends or family when one reaches one's use by date, (I hearby bequesth my entire MP3 collection to my great nephew Reginald whom, I am certain, will relish the 4003 Irish Accordian Tango tracks I have legitimately acquired).
Smuggling is about getting it for less and maximizing profit with the "on sale" of the item.
Sometimes the cost to the end consumer is a little less.
Sometimes, if the commodity is restricted, it carries an insane price.
The smuggles prices based on actual cost to them and profit to cover on costs and justify the risk. Rarely does that add up to much of a discount - just enough, in fact, to temp.
The more modern online pirate/smuggler is about a state of mind.
It is about sticking it to "the man".
It's also much more about the reduced risk emboldening the smuggler.
There are some fine balances people take with themselves.
there are those who buy the commodity then make it available to others.
Those who acquire the commodity via smuggling/piracy and pass it on and there are those who begin with actual physical theft and proceed from there.
Of course there is also the growing number of people who have a few toes in the blackmarket of non GST/VAT compliant cash in hand/bartering etc processes.
The world is a complicated place and very few of us live a life in which our values/conscience/morals/upbringing aren't compromised before we nod off to sleep each evening.
People will do what they can live with I suppose.
The acquisition of the goods being somewhat easier than the obtaining of the values these days.
Just call me Water Muddier.
 
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Rusty Nuts

New member
I believe that the person/s or company who create these programs deserve there asking price. (most)
Support our cause..... Monkey.gif
 

grimm560

New member
Try Mixpad from NCH software. They claim to give you a free trial...but if you start the free trial, then use it for a few days...go to uninstall it, they give you the option of using the software completely free with some components stripped. Its only $50 to buy the license. NCH Software has a ton of free, cheap, yet incredibly powerful software between audio, video, business, broadcasting, Podcasting...the list goes on. Any dummy that can navigate their recording software can use their video software. They're damn near the same as far as usability goes. Do a search for free Izotope Ozone Alternatives to find mastering software that costs you nothing. I am posting a thread about all of this stuff.
 

Doctor Varney

Cave dwelling Luddite
Try Mixpad from NCH software. They claim to give you a free trial...but if you start the free trial, then use it for a few days...go to uninstall it, they give you the option of using the software completely free with some components stripped. Its only $50 to buy the license. NCH Software has a ton of free, cheap, yet incredibly powerful software between audio, video, business, broadcasting, Podcasting...the list goes on. Any dummy that can navigate their recording software can use their video software. They're damn near the same as far as usability goes. Do a search for free Izotope Ozone Alternatives to find mastering software that costs you nothing. I am posting a thread about all of this stuff.

Which of the components are stripped from Mixpad when you do this?
 

Doctor Varney

Cave dwelling Luddite
fl studio is what i use.$100.00 and free updates for life.comes with great plugins stock!

Same here. Fantastic value for money and has advanced features which can put some other DAWs to shame, considering their prices. If I think I'm being treated fairly, I don't mind paying and I'm only too happy to contribute to their development.
 

Jay Tee 4303

New member
I don't live like a Boy Scout, even tho I am, Eagle, OOA, Firecrafter, 1974. I still don't lie, cheat, or steal, rules be damned, its a practical matter.

I can barely remember the pertinent details of events or conversations a week ago, much less fabricate AND KEEP STRAIGHT an alternate version of reality.

I'm just too lazy to lie.

I don't steal cuz there's way more of you than there are of me.

Stealing is a losing proposition.

I don't cheat cuz I'm bored most of the time. Surrounded by people who seem perpetually mired in simple problems, can't work a computer file system, who watch and are apparantly consumed by televised video aimed at 12 year old intellects, interspersed by advertisements epitomized by Hardees thinking I want to eat their food cuz they show some loser wiping coffee off a disgusting, fouled countertop with a dirty rag and drinking it. MMMM BOY!

Their attention spans are dictated by a lifetime of watching all problems solved in 30 minute, 60 minutes, or 60 seconds, on TV, and if they did try to solve a problem once and for all, the research would stop at 60 minutes and they'd have to start all over again the next day. There are people who have avoided this situation, but they have things to do besides entertaining me 24/7, so I'm on my own a good bit of the time, and I hate monotony, so I do things the hard way just to stretch them out and provide an occasional challenge.

I'm just a practical guy. I do the right thing for my benefit and I'm damned selfish about it. It lets me look people in the eye and know I can match or come close to their best, and deal with them on a similar level instead of begging favors. By applying similar standards to what I see in others, its quick and easy to know who I can trust and who is going to mess up the whole world the minute my back is turned.

This, in turn, allows me the luxury of not having to do everything myself. I don't have to build my own roads, practice brain surgery, brand cows, distill liquor, or solder circuit components...I can focus on the things I like, and have some skill at, and let people I know i can trust do the same.

For all of our benefit.

If you ask me, THIS is why The Rules got invented in the first place. Not a bunch of commands from power weenies to harsh your buzz....just a big picture view of how intelligent people can make things work a lot better than a bunch of solo artists always at war.

All that said...and I'm gonna be a bit careful exactly how I put this....once upon a time there was a businessman bent on cornering the computer operating system market, by fair means or foul. He...improved his product, to release a version we'll call...Skylight 1998.

It crashed on national TV on launch, and crashed on every system it ran on, so he improved it and released another version....Skylight 1998 SE.

Unfortunately, he screwed every person who bought and could not use the first version by charging full price for the fix...and...unfortunately for him in this anecdotal fairy tale, he failed to secure access to his product, and the moral of the story is that he no longer owes me a dime.

Quite the other way round as a matter of fact.

Hypothetically...

Otherwise...you invent it, its your's, and I'll pay your price for it, if it serves my needs. Treat me right and you'll get the same in return.

Gouge me senseless...and well...two can play at that game.

Got oxygen?
 

soundbase

New member
Reaper is an absolute awesome DAW. And at an only $60. You also get a 60 day trial so you can test it out before you buy. Has some really good audio editing capabilities plus its very customizable.
 
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