So gimme some awesome tips on recording brass and wind

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noisedude

noisedude

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I haven't done any of it before but I'm going to be doing quite a bit of alto sax, trumpet and trombone recording over the next few weeks. But time, as always, is of the essence, so if you want to give me any helpful tips regarding mic choices and placements that would be great. If you have any other annecdotes or anything interesting at all (EQ and compression treatments in particular) then that would be nice also.

Nice one,

Nik
 
All I can say is grab a small diaphragm dynamic and work from there. They sound smoother on brass than condensers to my ears.
 
Ribbons for brass!! All the way!

I use an AEA R84 on my horn, also like the Royer 121.

Straight on-axis anywhere from 2' to 6' from the bell.
 
Nik, my good buddy, what mics do you have?

My first grab for horns is a nice ribbon, a LDC other than the SP B1 of an MD441.

For winds my first grab is a neutral LDC like the M149, the V77, but the V69 is very nice also on winds. I haven't tried the B1 but I guess it'll do better on winds than on horns.

But a brighter ribbon like the Beyer M160/260 is very nice on winds too, and so is the MD441.

The old MD421 MKI is nice on trombone.
 
fraserhutch said:
Ribbons for brass!! All the way!

I use an AEA R84 on my horn, also like the Royer 121.

Straight on-axis anywhere from 2' to 6' from the bell.
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Absolutely...

Ribbons all the way. If you don't want to spend that much, look as the Beyers. I have to Sank modified 260's and love them.

Taylor
 
Coles 4038 ribbons... :) I do like ribbons in the studio, but will never use them in the field. I use a gefell m930s on remote recording gigs.
 
What kind of mics!?

I think Han has asked a great question. :)
What type of mics will you have on hand? :confused:
My trombone (Bach Strad 42BLTG) is a symphony (BIG) bore horn with a Gold/Brass Bell making it a darker sounding horn.
I used a Studio Projects C3 :eek: on it with the bell pointing about 15 degrees down from straight-on and about 18 inches back and got a very nice bright and very useable sound. :rolleyes:
Ran it through an ART GOLD MPA Tube Pre, low on the input gain and higher on the analog out end.
BG/HSG
 
Han said:
Nik, my good buddy, what mics do you have?

My first grab for horns is a nice ribbon, a LDC other than the SP B1 of an MD441.

For winds my first grab is a neutral LDC like the M149, the V77, but the V69 is very nice also on winds. I haven't tried the B1 but I guess it'll do better on winds than on horns.

But a brighter ribbon like the Beyer M160/260 is very nice on winds too, and so is the MD441.

The old MD421 MKI is nice on trombone.
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Han I knew you would be the man on this.

Here's my mic list as it stands:

- SP T3
- SP C4s
- Senn E845 x3
- Senn E835
- Beyer Soundstar MkII (M400??)
- Shure 545 (old USA-made one)
- SE SE2200
- A couple of cheap AKG dynamics


I can add extras if needed but money is tight so be nice. They will be going through either a Joemeek ThreeQ, Soundcraft M12 or the DM2000 pres in a Yamaha i88x.

I'm not looking for esoteric here, but I want solid sounds and have no clue where to start. The only time I've recorded these instruments before have been in ensembles of three or four, recorded with a pair of SDCs. This time it's all overdubs so decent solo sounds are what I'm trying to get.

Cheers! :)

Nik
 
noisedude said:
Han I knew you would be the man on this.

Here's my mic list as it stands:

- SP T3
- SP C4s
- Senn E845 x3
- Senn E835
- Beyer Soundstar MkII (M400??)
- Shure 545 (old USA-made one)
- SE SE2200
- A couple of cheap AKG dynamics


I can add extras if needed but money is tight so be nice. They will be going through either a Joemeek ThreeQ, Soundcraft M12 or the DM2000 pres in a Yamaha i88x.

I'm not looking for esoteric here, but I want solid sounds and have no clue where to start. The only time I've recorded these instruments before have been in ensembles of three or four, recorded with a pair of SDCs. This time it's all overdubs so decent solo sounds are what I'm trying to get.

Cheers! :)

Nik
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of your current mics I would experiment with the T3. For a not-too-expensive extra mic I would get one of the Nady or Shinybox ribbons.
 
noisedude said:
Han I knew you would be the man on this.

Here's my mic list as it stands:

- SP T3
- SP C4s
- Senn E845 x3
- Senn E835
- Beyer Soundstar MkII (M400??)
- Shure 545 (old USA-made one)
- SE SE2200
- A couple of cheap AKG dynamics


I can add extras if needed but money is tight so be nice. They will be going through either a Joemeek ThreeQ, Soundcraft M12 or the DM2000 pres in a Yamaha i88x.

I'm not looking for esoteric here, but I want solid sounds and have no clue where to start. The only time I've recorded these instruments before have been in ensembles of three or four, recorded with a pair of SDCs. This time it's all overdubs so decent solo sounds are what I'm trying to get.

Cheers! :)

Nik
Click to expand...

Oh dear Nik, I'm afraid I can't be much of a help for you here because allthe mics you have are unfamiliar to me.

But you do have a T3 and you're going to do overdubs only? One at the time?
Then I guess the T3 is the way to go.

The Sennheisers are vocal mics and perhaps the 345 will do decent on trumpet. Trumpets can sound harsh, especially when muted and the only mic that really sound big and fat on a trumpet is a decent ribbon.

I hope the T3 is not as bright as the C1, so it will sound great on alto sax. I always use a Neumann M149 on sax and this mic is quite neutral, but on the bright side of neutral, so to say.

Trombones isn't a big problem, actually I've recorded a T-bone last saturday with an MD441, nothing wrong with that.

Wait untill you'll have to record bagpipes together with a mandoline, violin and an upright bass and a player who's afraid to break a bass string and strokes it like it's a yesterday born kitten. Then you're in trouble, like I've been the last couple of weeks.

And I do have a twelve square meter booth, but she refuses to play there.

Sorry I can't help you very much, wish you lots of success!

Peace, Han
 
So where do I place my mics for different instruments?

The T3 is somewhat bright but less so than the C1 to my ears. I'd like an M149 but I'd buy a new car first!! ;)
 
The mic some 1 1/2 feet from the bell of the horn, slightly off axis.

On alto sax some 1 foot from the instrument, halfway between the mouthpiece and the bell because much of the sound comes from the valves.

Don't worry, be happy Nik.
 
I've only recorded a few sax players. Within my limited mic selection I found a CAD M179 to do well on tenor and alto sax. Nice detail without hyped highs. Continuously variable pattern, so you get to play with that a bit. A wide cardioid worked the best for me. It important that a sax player, much like a vocalist, has good mic technique. (this dosen't necessarily mean that they stay perfectly still!) Give 'em a good pair of headphones and a good mix to work with, let them know that's it part of their job to balance themselves a bit.
 
Hey han.

I sorry to temporally hijack this thread, but i saw your post about recording bagpipes among other things. Did you spot mic the 'pipes? I ask because i actually play the pipes, but i really dont' knwo how to go about recording them. Got any pointers?
 
Yo Noisedude! If it's all overdubs, you don't have to close mic everything. Try the C-4's on woodwinds,coincedent, 3'-5' away. With brass, I'd start with the e835, 845, and the Beyer. Horns like a mic with low output up pretty close, say 10-16". I use an Oktava ML52 ribbon, Shure SM-7, or AKG C414 padded. Even a kick mic, like AKG D112 can sound good on some brass. I would try the T-3 on sax for jollies, up close and probably padded. Let us know how it turns out.-Richie
 
prestomation said:
Hey han.

I sorry to temporally hijack this thread, but i saw your post about recording bagpipes among other things. Did you spot mic the 'pipes? I ask because i actually play the pipes, but i really dont' knwo how to go about recording them. Got any pointers?
Click to expand...

Hi

Yes, I've close miced the bagpipes with a DIN pair of Beyer M260 ribbons and a LDC on the back where the low end comes from.

Ribbons is the way to go, so smooth it'll make you cry. :D
 
Thanks very much for your help guys ... this is an important project for me as it gives me a chance to corner the thriving ska-punk scene in my area if I do it well. I'm working on bass and guitars for the next few days and then brass and wind will come next week.

What is a cheap-ish ribbon that's actually any good? I'm not saying I will be buying one but what are the names I should be watching out for?
 
Cheap Ribbon mics

I've read some good things about the $199 Nady RSM-2, the $150 Shiny Box Model 46 and $165 Model 23 Ribbons. I also read an article that mentions that there are a number of ribbon mics with a design similar to the SM Pro-Audio MC04 that are good buys for the money. I have also read where removing some of the internal wind protective materials can really "open up" some of these mics.
BG/HSG
http://www.proaudioreview.com/june05/nady.shtml
http://www.mojopie.com/rsm2.html
http://www.shinybox.com/ShinyBox46.php
 
as a very general rule, in this order.

good ribbons
good dynamics (pre's make a bigger difference here)
good condensers
cheep ribbons
cheep dynamics
roll of toilet paper
my dogs ass
baby vomit
cheep condensers.
 
Noisedude- I haven't gotten to listen to the cheap Chinese ribbons, although some of the reviews are good. I got my Oktava ML-52 at Guitar Center a few years ago for $175. It's a whole different animal. I've used a pair of the little Royers, and they rock. I wishhhh I owned a pair. The Oktava, on the other hand, sounds like no other mic I have ever heard, and it is wicked hit or miss. If it likes the source (30% or so of the time), it's a very good mic. If it hates you, it hates you completely. It's a little dark, has low output like all ribbons, except maybe the rare phantom powered ribbon. I used it on one vocal on my CD when no other mic I had worked. Would I like a pair of old RCA's? Duh. In the mean time we po' folk have to get by. The jury is still out on cheap ribbon mics in general. The consensus so far is- it takes a lot of expertise and money to build a good ribbon mic. Build the $200 ribbon mic that sounds and works like a Royer, and you get to be a millionaire.-Richie
 
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