snare and mic question

[mentil69]

I record my snare using two sm 58s through mackie xdr preamps into a yamaha 2816 workstation. I havent been getting that full snare sound that i am looking for. Ive tried basically every placement, i just dont think the 58s can handle a snare as well as other mics. Therefore, ive been looking into buying two beta 57s for on top and under the snare. Would switching to beta 57s make a significant difference in the sound of the snare? Any help would be appreciated.

 

[esactun]

Are you micing the top and the bottom of the snare? If so, the two tracks will be out of phase, and won't sound full due to cancellation.

Invert the polarity (some will sayi "flip the phase") of the track that has the bottom snare mic. It should sound bigger immediately.

 

[theletterq]

The most important question is, does the snare sound big and full before you even put a mic on it?

If it does, then mic placements that are up and away from the head tend to give a fuller sound as it has more time to develop before hitting the mic.

A touch of reverb or compression will help to fatten up a snare as well.

 

[Track Rat]

A 58 wouldn't be my first choice for snare mic but it will definately do the job (except for the pop screen, it's basicly a 57). If you're mic'ing the top and bottom you could be setting up a phase problem. How does the snare sound in the room?

 

[mentil69]

ya thanx for all the help, and to answer your question, the snare does sound very good live. My setup is that i run the top snare mic straight into the yamaha workstation, and the bottom snare mic through the mackie mixer and then into the workstation. So how do i fix the out of phase problem?

 

[Track Rat]

Take the bottom mic track and flip the phase on it.

 

[snibbel]

i own an AW4416 but i suppose you do it the same way on the 2816. go to VIEW CHANNEL of the track of which you' like to switch the phase. on this screen close to in the upper left corner you'll find the phase "switch", a very small square with a "N" in it. click it and the phase is inverted.

 

[int]

On my cheap little Rosewood Tama Snare, I start with a Beta 57 right on the shell, outside the hole, and run it through my Joe Meek Twin thingy. Then I add just a little compression. This picks up the snare sound nicely, with a little low end because of the mic's characteristics.

If I need more attack I'll add a regular 57 to the top and blend the two. Usually I need to add a little EQ around 250 hz and some highs from 4-6 k on up during mixdown. The heavier the music, the more I add, but this is just a general guideline.

This same guideline worked well on a Pork Pie snare as well. Sometimes I'll use a Sennheiser 845 or 835 if I have the chance to play around.

I dig the Beta 57 on snare, in my little basement setup. Works well for me.

 

[mentil69]

ya yesterday i actually got the 58 to sound great on snare, so when i got a couple of betas, it should sound even better, but for now, i will probably stick with the58. Thanks., what is your setup like?

 

[mentil69]

Also, i know how to switch the phase and how it helps with two snare mics, but can someone explain what it is im doing, and why it helps?

 

[Harvey Gerst]

When the drummer hits the snare head, the head is pushed "away" (a "minus" signal) from the mic, and that's the sound you hear. When you put a mic underneath the snare drum and hit the top head, the bottom head is pushed "toward" (a "plus" signal) the second mic, so it's possible that the two microphones will cancel somewhat when combined ("plus" and "minus").

By reversing polarity on the bottom mic (changing the "plus" signal to a "minus" signal), the two mics are now "in phase" (both generating a "minus" sound) and the mics will combine better.

Does that make sense now?

 

[mentil69]

thanx harvey youre the answer i was looking for. I also have a question about mic quality. Im getting more knowledgable in terms of microphones and there different applications, but i was wondering if this statement is true; The better quality of the mic, the more the vocals stick out in the mix.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

thanx harvey youre the answer i was looking for. I also have a question about mic quality. Im getting more knowledgable in terms of microphones and there different applications, but i was wondering if this statement is true; The better quality of the mic, the more the vocals stick out in the mix.

No, that statement is NOT true. It depends on a number of other factors, like the arrangement, the panning of all the instruments, and the type of song, to name just a few items.

The microphone is usually chosen for a particular singer based on either complimenting that particular singer's voice, or creating a unusually distinctive sound for a particular song.

Depending on the singer (and the song), I may choose a large diaphragm condenser mic , a ribbon mic, or a dynamic mic, or even a very cheap mic run into a distortion box (to get a slightly gritty sound).

There are no hard and fast rules about mic choices for vocalists; it depends on the particular singer, and the particular mic.

I'm not sure if this is an urban legend or not, but it's worth repeating here:

After Carly Simon completed a recent album, it was decided that she would do a live performance of the album at Grand Central Station in New York. During the performance, the producer and Carly both were impressed with the sound of the Shure Beta 58 on her voice for one particular song.

They were so impressed (so the story goes), that they went back into the studio to recut the track with that mic, and eliminated the track cut with an expensive old Neumann.

While that story may or may not be true, it's a great example of actual situations where a mic that you wouldn't dream of using normally for something, turns out to be the best choice for that one particular task.

 

[int]

what is your setup like?

Room has low celings, lots of carpet. Pretty dead. Doesn't have many sweet spots so I have to close mic everything. I did a "room within a room" thing in an already small basement. But at least the neighbors don't complain.

Other than that, I run a JoeMeek or Sytek pre into a Tascam DM-24 and then into the PC.

 

[mentil69]

thanks everybody

 

[littledog]

Regarding flipping the polarity of the bottom snare mic:

It is NOT automatic that this will make your snare sound better, since the distance of both mics from the snare will affect the phase relationship as well.

The point is, it's a good idea to TRY flipping the phase, and see if it helps or hurts the sound. "Rules" are no substitute for listening.