Small Diaphragm Condenser Pairs

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joemintz

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For stereo piano and drum overheads, which of these is the best purchase?

Shure SM81s,
Josephson C42s, or
AKG C451s?

I have access to a Kawai baby grand in a decent room, and I record with some pretty dark, dry old Zildjan cymbals on a 70s Ludwig set.

Merci.
 
RØDE NT5.

Unless I could get my hands on a pair of Bruel & Kjaer lab mics.
 
Well, it just depends on how much money you want to spend on performance. This is one where, in spite of some variations, the more money you spend, the better they are. I like all of the major models, and only wish I had more money to spend.
For cheap, I like MXL 603s and Oktava MC012 (note, I bought my Oktavas for $50 each, not premium Sound Room prices. I actually had a set from The Sound Room, which I sold to buy my C-4's. I picked up a cheap pair of Oktavas for $100 from Guitar Center later, 'cause I still like them for some things)

Next step up, I like Studio Projects C-4 and Rode NT5
Next step up, AKG C451 and SM81
Next step up, Josephson C42, Neumann KM184, Earthworks SR30
End of the line- Schoeps CM6, DPA 4011

I believe evey one of the mics listed above is a great mic, worth every penny you will have to pay for it. From $50 to $2000 or so apiece. It's almost like you want somebody to tell you the $300 mic is just as good as that Schoeps, so don't waste your money. Unfortunately, I can't, because it's not true. There are reasons why those badass mics cost an arm and a leg. Sure, plenty of Grammys have been won with a Shure SM57, but plenty of Grammys have been awarded to shitty recordings and shitty recording artists. There comes a time when you have to decide what your resources are and just do it. I ultimately settled on the Oktavas, the C-4's, and the KM184's. None of those mics have disappointed me. Are the Oktavas as "good" as the Neumanns? For some things, yes. But by and large, since I got the Neumanns, the other SD's don't see that much time up. Of the mics you mentioned, I think the Josephsons are the best all around mics. They are also the $1000 mics. Go figure.-Richie
 
I'm really interested in those Peluso SDCs. Now I'll probably have to buy them. I have been staying off this forum and not reading the HC recording forum so much lately because you people give me ridiculous GAS for recording gear when I need more money invested in my actual instruments. I decided to come back and within a few minutes you are already making it worse! :mad: :p :D
 
I love my SM81s, they're just really, really accurate. The bass rolloff has come in handy a couple times as well, and that feature was similarly uncolored. I know some SDCs have problems with high self-noise, which has not been a problem for me with the SM81s. I've heard the AKG 451s can be a bit harsh in the highs, but I've also heard they're great...haven't actually gotten to use them so maybe someone else knows. If I ever decided to add another pair though, I'll be looking hard at those Pelusos...just wish someone who has a Peluso would post a sample one of these days.
 
EleKtriKaz said:
I love my SM81s, they're just really, really accurate. The bass rolloff has come in handy a couple times as well, and that feature was similarly uncolored. I know some SDCs have problems with high self-noise, which has not been a problem for me with the SM81s. I've heard the AKG 451s can be a bit harsh in the highs, but I've also heard they're great...haven't actually gotten to use them so maybe someone else knows. If I ever decided to add another pair though, I'll be looking hard at those Pelusos...just wish someone who has a Peluso would post a sample one of these days.

I'd like to hear some peluso samples myself. drums and acoustic guitar.

here's the only sample I can find: http://www.audiolot.com/proaudio/sales/peluso
 
EleKtriKaz said:
I know some SDCs have problems with high self-noise, which has not been a problem for me with the SM81s.

The SM81s aren't noisy, but newer designs, such as Shure's own KSM141, are a few dB quieter, with higher sensitivity and switchable patterns. I haven't heard the 141 yet, but if anybody has, I'd love a review.
 
Shure SM81s - two-dimensional with not a lot of off-axis response. Can be very good used as a single mic for applications like hi hat and getting an acoustic gtr to the front of a mix. Nothing to write home about when used in stereo pairs. In defense of these mics: since they don't pick up much off-axis they can be more forgiving in a less-than-stellar sounding room. But ultimately, I'd recommend tweaking the acoustics in the room until the sound is better. But to each his own.

Josephson C42s - excellent mics modeled after KM84's. Very colored, warm, buttery and detailed. Nice spacial imagery when used in pairs. If you're doing rock these can be a cool choice. If you're recording acoustic-based music such as jazz, bluegrass, and folk - you might wanna go with a cleaner less-colored mic.

AKG C451s - a very bright mic that was in standard use in studios when everyone was recording to tape when it was important to get a lot of high-end in the recording due to the generation loss from master 2" tape to final vinyl. Not a good all-purpose choice at this point.

Some others you might consider:

Peluso CEMC6's - Clean, detailed. Very good spacial imagery. One of the best pairs of mics for general use under $1000/pair, and the best mic in that price range for acoustic instruments. Optional capsules available. When ordering you can request other capsules be put on at the factory at no charge - for instance, if you preferred to get an omni pair first rather than the standard cardioid caps.

ADK TL's - these are multi-pattern transformerless and transparent/clean LDC's and are excellent on piano, drum OH's and other stereo-miking applications. Excellent detail and stereo imagery. We used a pair on a Kawai grand piano on this CD and TL's were also used on Ray Charles piano for his last CD, "Genius Loves Company".

Avenson STO-2's - if you're a real purist and have some good, clean mic pres and an excellent-sounding space these omni Earthworks knock-offs are an excellent deal.
 
Dot said:
Avenson STO-2's - if you're a real purist and have some good, clean mic pres and an excellent-sounding space these omni Earthworks knock-offs are an excellent deal.

I have a pair of STO-2's running though a Sebatron VMP-2000e and they sound great. I recently recorded a 6 foot Samick with this setup with the mics about a foot the the left and right of the piano player (their perpective) and they sounded really detailed.
 
Peluso CEMC6 Samples

You all want samples? Here are samples. I sent these back because of noise issues, not a serious problem, but a problem. I heard they corrected the issues since then, but they still sound great! I used metal finger picks, one mic over right shoulder pointing down, the other at the 14th fret about a foot away. I applied just a tad of reverb on one, but can't remember which sample. No EQ at all. Very nice stereo image on my monitors!

Sample 1

Sample 2

This was the recording chain: Taylor 414 --> CEMC6(matched pair) --> Avalon AD2022 preamp --> E-MU 1212m sound card
 
just picked up the rode nt5s...used them this weekend...they sound GREAT as overheads. took my drum sound to a whole new level.
 
I love my Gefell SMS 2000s. you can add M20(card) m21(hyper) or m27(omni)

love gefells. my favorite company by far.
 
Speaking of SDC's, I threw a Beyerdynamic MC930 up on drums last night and it made the track sound like I had reverb on compared to other recordings I've done (on the same kit in the same room many times). That mic will pull TONS of detail out of a recording, I can't wait to play more with them. Excellent off axis response, and almost hemispherical in pickup compared to standard cardioids.

War
 
Josephson C42

So I've heard these have been solid mics as drum overheads but I figured I'd ask the experts a few questions about them. I record almost exclusively metal/hardcore bands, so nothing but heavy music with tons of heavy drumming. I plan to mic every drum and cymbal and really want to check the Josephsons out. But it's a few hours away to the nearest music store so anybody have any other pros or cons for what I would be trying to do? Thanks a lot guys.
 
Well since this thread has been dug up, I'll add that I went ahead and bought a pair of KSM141s, and I'm loving them. Big improvement over the SM81, which is not a shabby mic at all. Their brighter sound lends well to overheads, and even though I promised myself they wouldn't leave the studio, I give in to the temptation to use them live. Having switchable patterns without changing capsules is nice too.

Seems like there's no shortage of good options these days . . .
 
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