Sight-reading

[Henry Mars]

Just curious. With out written music how do you convey your musical ideas to stranges that you may want to play with or have to play with?
I guess it is kind of easy if you are a three chord wonder ... but when the music matures from primitive repitition how do you communuicate? There is a lot of stuff out there that requires ensamble playing along with improvisation. With out music how do you communicate ideas efficiently?

 

[Ed Dixon]

Having worked with both readers and ear-types, there is a difference. Readers often do communicate via sheet music or some similar form. Play by ear types quite often communicate by words and the music itself. They play a portion and the other party hears what is involved and understands.

While each case varies, ear types can sometimes convey their thoughts very quickly. If each half is good, it goes quickly. By the same token readers can sometimes also work quickly.

Most of us probably fall somewhere in between. We rely on a combo of priinted material and listening.

Ed

 

[Ed Dixon]

Some years ago I worked with an older teenage boy who had been playing the guitar about 6 months. He knew absolutely nothing about chords or music. He had just picked up a guitar and started trying to play.

The interesting part is he had an ability I have never seen since in any person anywhere. He had the ability to act like a human tape recorder. We were playing together one Saturday morning and a song came over the radio with a somewhat distinctive but difficult guitar part. He started playing it with the radio, perhaps 1 sec behind the radio music. He played it absolutely note for note.

I commented it sounded like he had been working on that song. He responded he had never heard the song before. He was just playing what he heard. He did the same thing for the next few songs that played. He had no idea how he did it, he just did. It was absolutely amazing.

With someone like that, letting him continue without music instruction is probably a good thing to let his natural talent emerge.

Ed

 

[Dogman]

Just curious. With out written music how do you convey your musical ideas to stranges that you may want to play with or have to play with?
I guess it is kind of easy if you are a three chord wonder ... but when the music matures from primitive repitition how do you communuicate? There is a lot of stuff out there that requires ensamble playing along with improvisation. With out music how do you communicate ideas efficiently?

You might want to ask Stevie Wonder, or Ray Charles that one.

 

[Henry Mars]

Some years ago I worked with an older teenage boy who had been playing the guitar about 6 months. He knew absolutely nothing about chords or music. He had just picked up a guitar and started trying to play.

The interesting part is he had an ability I have never seen since in any person anywhere. He had the ability to act like a human tape recorder. We were playing together one Saturday morning and a song came over the radio with a somewhat distinctive but difficult guitar part. He started playing it with the radio, perhaps 1 sec behind the radio music. He played it absolutely note for note.

I commented it sounded like he had been working on that song. He responded he had never heard the song before. He was just playing what he heard. He did the same thing for the next few songs that played. He had no idea how he did it, he just did. It was absolutely amazing.

With someone like that, letting him continue without music instruction is probably a good thing to let his natural talent emerge.

Ed

on the other hand it might be wise to get the kid professional instruction so that he/she dosen't form bad habits. I have had to re-train a lot of good ear players because of poor technique .. hard stuff to unlearn.

 

[Henry Mars]

You might want to ask Stevie Wonder, or Ray Charles that one.

Actually both of them could read music .... in brail. Ray could even arange music.

 

[Cyrokk]

Just curious. With out written music how do you convey your musical ideas to stranges that you may want to play with or have to play with?

One common way is to describe music based on styles and tempos of previous songs. "I want to do a funk song, about as fast as "Mother Popcorn", with a break after 16 bars much like Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit".

Also, you can actually learn basic music theory without looking at sheet music. I learned relative pitch and chord progression formula purely by ear, despite the fact that I can read music. And you can tell a blues player to do a standard 12-bar blues progression in A and he will take it from there.

 

[beezelbubba]

Not being able to read music limits you. It is not fucking stupid. Their are a lot of great players that cant read music. The inability to read music limits every one of them.

It is less fucking stupid,I suppose,when you actually elaborate.It is still fucking stupid to say that someone is "just a guitar player" because they aren't able to read someone elses musical righting.It will prevent me from playing a session recording a jingle for my local auto parts store,I suppose!Or landing a spot as lead guitarist in my local symphony orchestra.But somehow,I'll just have to learn to be satisfied making the music that is in my head and heart,by ear.
What a sham of a life,eh?

 

[beezelbubba]

One common way is to describe music based on styles and tempos of previous songs. "I want to do a funk song, about as fast as "Mother Popcorn", with a break after 16 bars much like Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit".

Also, you can actually learn basic music theory without looking at sheet music. I learned relative pitch and chord progression formula purely by ear, despite the fact that I can read music. And you can tell a blues player to do a standard 12-bar blues progression in A and he will take it from there.

Or make an MP3 of your idea and post it on a homerecording website!

 

[Cyrokk]

Or make an MP3 of your idea and post it on a homerecording website!

Agreed!

 

[Henry Mars]

It is less fucking stupid,I suppose,when you actually elaborate.It is still fucking stupid to say that someone is "just a guitar player" because they aren't able to read someone elses musical righting.It will prevent me from playing a session recording a jingle for my local auto parts store,I suppose!Or landing a spot as lead guitarist in my local symphony orchestra.But somehow,I'll just have to learn to be satisfied making the music that is in my head and heart,by ear.
What a sham of a life,eh?

I guess a man just has to know his limitations. I am glad that I am not that limited. If missing 95% of the body of musical art dosen't bother you that's ok.

fine

 

[ez_willis]

Musicians read music .....

A little story-

My next door neighbors are a married couple in their early 50's. Each has a degree in music, one plays trumpet and the other trombone. She played professionally for a while but now works out of the house making sunglasses. He is an optometrist. Both can sight read anything you put in front of them, and play it nearly flawlessly. Occasionally(every month or so) I hear them playing for a few minutes on the weekend.

I don't read music, but can play anything you put in front of me. I have a studio in my garage where I can write a song on guitar or keyboard, work out the drum part then record it, lay down the bass track, guitar tracks, percussion, keyboard, and vocals, and whatever else I feel like adding to the track. I record something everyday, even if it's just an overdub or something small.

My neighbors can't fathom how I write "compositions" and record the parts myself without reading music. I've explained to them that I am not a college educated "musician", therefore it's simply a matter of using my brain and imagination.

I've noticed that in general, the more education someone has the more difficulty they have thinking outside of the book.

I'm kind of glad that I'm not a musician though, I'd much rather play music than make glasses.

 

[ez_willis]

If missing 95% of the body of musical art dosen't bother you that's ok.

You are not saying that 95% of music is what's on the sheet, right?

The next time it's getting a little steamy with your wife or some tramp at the bar, get her in your bedroom and give her the sheetmusic to Marvin Gaye's What's Going On or Stevie Wonder's Innervision then make your move.

 

[famous beagle]

I guess a man just has to know his limitations. I am glad that I am not that limited. If missing 95% of the body of musical art dosen't bother you that's ok.

fine

Yeah this is just a really silly remark.

 

[famous beagle]

I think this is what it basically comes down to IMHO:

If you're wanting to play in an orchestra, teach, do session work, etc., you'll need to learn to read and write music.

If you're wanting to play popular music, you're probably not going to need it. It won't hurt, but it's not necessary.

I've been playing popular music (rock, blues, etc.) for about 20 years, and I can't remember ever being asked to read a chart in those situations. I'm not saying it couldn't ever happen, I'm just saying it hasn't happened once (that I can remember) in 20 years.

 

[Dogman]

Actually both of them could read music .... in brail. Ray could even arange music.

Well, this may be true, but I don't. Yet, I'm sure if I got to hang with a musician like this, we'd find a way to communicate our ideas to each other. Reading music isn't a bad thing, it's just not what makes you a musician. Music teachers can read sheet music. They can play instruments. They may not be musicians....

 

[Henry Mars]

Well, this may be true, but I don't. Yet, I'm sure if I got to hang with a musician like this, we'd find a way to communicate our ideas to each other. Reading music isn't a bad thing, it's just not what makes you a musician. Music teachers can read sheet music. They can play instruments. They may not be musicians....

All I'm saying (and this is my final word) is that without the ability to read music you are severly limiting yourself. Non readers don't understand this ... readers that learned to play without music then learn to read realize 1.) they have been wasting a lot of time learning stuff that is in print and 2.) a new world has opened up and 3.) it is easier to find high paying work.
BTW I am not downing ear playing it is also a needed skill but is only one peice in a larger puzzle.

 

[famous beagle]

All I'm saying (and this is my final word) is that without the ability to read music you are severly limiting yourself. Non readers don't understand this ... readers that learned to play without music then learn to read realize 1.) they have been wasting a lot of time learning stuff that is in print and 2.) a new world has opened up and 3.) it is easier to find high paying work.
BTW I am not downing ear playing it is also a needed skill but is only one peice in a larger puzzle.

My final word (as a fellow music reader) is that, besides the careers I mentioned earlier, I don't think it limits you very much.

 

[cephus]

All I'm saying (and this is my final word) is that without the ability to read music you are severly limiting yourself. Non readers don't understand this ... readers that learned to play without music then learn to read realize 1.) they have been wasting a lot of time learning stuff that is in print and 2.) a new world has opened up and 3.) it is easier to find high paying work.
BTW I am not downing ear playing it is also a needed skill but is only one peice in a larger puzzle.

You put about the same amount of weight on ear as most of the lousy music-majors I've played with.

I read. Well. I believe that it is important to understand the language so that a musical idea can be created, then later reproduced without any realtime representation of it necessary. I write alot of music in my own davinci's notebook way so I can remember it, but no other human could figure it out. You need to be able to read and write notation if you want to be able to pass your music down to the future after the apocalypse on stone tablets.

That said, alot of readers who I have played with stop at that point and don't go on to realize that there is depth to the music that cannot be reduced to tempo, pitch, rhythm and dynamics. At least not to the point that they study it with the same enthusiasm as they attacked deciphring the weird graphic code of notation.

To sum it up: Give me a feel player over a reader any time. The best players I ever played with were feel players. There were some that could read, too, but they were primarily feel.

Henry Mars is my new hero - as far as uptight theorists that need a conductor to get through a jam.

 

[Dogman]

Good post Boo....I'd love to be able to sight read, I'm just too lazy. And I prefer to hear good music, not see it. And I am not picking on Mr. Mars, as he has some valid points.