martinweeks
New member
Okay here goes this particular question has been a thorn in my side now for months. So pardon me if I sound a bit cranky here but I'm completely fed up with all the other responses I've gotten from outside of this forums...and it's not that big a deal it's just a pain in the butt for me due to my equipment in the box.
I'm very familiar now with using parallel compression in different ways, however, there's a specific thing I wish to do using side chain compression.
So we are all on the same page...I AM NOT CONCERNED AT THE MOMENT WITH PUMPING BASS AND DRUM STUFF. So please do not waste time with all that drum/bass side chain discussion, there's already a universe of that on the web. It is not what I need to know about.
We (as in my fiancee and myself) are writing songs. The lyrical punch is important ergo there are specific points in the songs where the vocals stop and start.
All I am trying to do is one single thing at this time. And that is:
Use side chain compression to squash digital delay in a Send track during the vocals and release the effect when the vocals pause or stop. NOTHING MORE SO AGAIN NO DRUM BASS TALK PLEASE.
My DAW does not support "Native" Side Chain compression however, I do have compressors that will do this. Specifically I am talking about "Ducking" nothing else. I wish to use side chain compression to "Duck" the delay during the vocals, and release the "tail" of the effect (slight delay nothing radical) during the pauses on the vocals. For dynamic effect only, nothing crazy. Think live concert sound where there's that real small slap back from the back of the auditorium or whatever. (See you next Tour....tour.) Got it? That is all I want to accomplish.
I've now seen dozens of videos and read dozens of articles and they all do the same thing. They talk about pumping drum and bass. They also all do the same thing and talk about either Pro Tools, or Logic, or Reaper or studio 1 which all have native abilities for this or come with side chain specific compressors that have the "KEY" icon to make this process simple.
I do not.
What I have is the reaper "Realcomp" compressor which will do this without the need of a "Key". It sort of works. I worked on this last night using a demo recording that came with the DAW just doing the drum/bass thing so I could work with threshold and ratio trying to figure this out. However,
When I placed a vocal loop in a new track (vocals had long phrases and long pauses so I could over drive stuff and clearly hear what was going on.) I couldn't tell if I was actually doing the squash or not.
Their is also a well known side chain compressor called sidekick 6 which does all this, but i''ve downloaded it and it will not load into my DAW (don't know why and don't care at the moment.) also tried another "Side chain" compressor download and it too also failed to load. But the Reaper compressor works fine in my DAW. So this is the one I will be using for the time being
Other aggravation: I've seen videos that tell me I need to have two compressors to do this...one for the track sending the audio and one for the track that is to be affected by the signal. This doesn't make sense to me as I don't need to do that when it comes to drum/bass stuff. the kick signal causes the compressor in the bass track to work and compressor stops when the kick signal is gone. So why I would need to do this for ducking a reverb or delay effect makes no sense to me. If I do have to do this fine, but I would like the clarification once and for all so I can get back to work.
Next Aggravation. "Language or Lack thereof." Too many times I hear/see these videos and they refer to Send Tracks as Aux buses. Excuse me but a Send Effect is essentially send/return (old school PA stuff) The effect is controlled by the return of the effect back to the source in other words blend of levels. Want just barely audible return...turn down the send track signal as it's going back to the source signal. an Aux bus is a straight line...i.e. multiple drum tracks being aux bused through the aux to the main out. Straight line. Send tracks do not do that. (well maybe in the digital world but I have always thought the reverb or delay was sent back to the original instrument track. then out to the main. If I'm wrong please correct me.)
So here's the outline of what I wish to do.
1. I always use send tracks for delay and/or reverb as it's CPU conservation. Yes I also will use send tracks for compression, as it is a means of doing parallel compression (nice effect too by the way) But for this post we are focusing on what the vocal track does to the delay effect in the send track. or send bus whichever is easier for you to wrap your head around.
I know some of you folks most likely do use the Reaper Software. I do not. So I need a basic 1,2,3,4 step by step instructions on how I can set up my vocal track to trigger the "Realcomp" compressor in the send track to squash the delay while there are vocals. Nothing more please just this one specific function.
I've also seen just recently a video where the narrator used a Limiter (huh and why?) and the limiter was after the delay effect. (????) He was of course using Studio 1 DAW and I am not. So that training video was a total waste of my time again.
One more detail as I'm trying to be real specific and give you a visualization of how I set up my vocals.
I record the vocals mono.
Then I copy the vocal track and pan them left and right about 10 and 2 for basic widening. (and of course their's EQ and level balancing and all that)
These two vocal tracks are identical in every way to avod "Phase Issues" and they are then "AUX Bused" to the main stereo out.
the Aux Bus is where I place Compression in the traditional manner used for mixing. It is for the sake of gluing and making the vocals sit in the pocket as the lingo says. Works very well for basic static vocals, but I need to step this up to a higher level hence the need for the dynamics. I do not want to mess with the aux bus effects chains as I like the vocal tone that is created...but again it's still static. Doesn't breath (well it does as I use automation but that's another issue) So again...do I need to create yet another copy of the vocal track to use as a trigger or can I just use one of the two identical vocal mono tracks to trigger the compressor reaction?
I've already done this with manual automation but it takes forever to get done...especially when the song vocals are bouncy and sophisticate (which is the norm not the exception) so I need to use the compression technique to do the automation of the ducking. And it simply sounds better plain and simple.
So can someone please just send me a 1,2,3,4... set of instructions so I can set this up and I can then work with the thresholds, and ratios and release times to fine tune the sound I am seeking to create?
Summary of questions:
How many compressors and where do I place them in the chain of effects before or after?
What is "seeing" what? Is the second compressor seeing the vocals or the configuration of the compressor?
Below is a link to a song we recently did where I do this effect using automation. It's just not as good and clean as it could be but you will get the point. the vocals start out in lower register and are essentially flat. (I do use the Softtube Saturation Knob in the VOX Aux bus to fatten up the vocals) and as the vocals pitch gets higher and builds up to the guitar instrumental interlude the delay gets to go a bit nuts. then is toned down but remains present through the remainder of the song. Like I said it's not as clean and precise as I'd like but it's what I'm aiming at. Control of delay for dynamics.
Please let me know...we have a lot of unfinished material that needs this specific style of dynamics.
Thanks and again my apologies for sounding cranky. Working two jobs and dealing with an assortment of disabilities issues leaves very little time to just sit and be as creative as I'd like to be so I need to be more efficient with my work flow and time management. This is a means to an end as they say. Here's the link to the song as an example.
A Place I'''ve Never Been by LinMar Productions
I'm very familiar now with using parallel compression in different ways, however, there's a specific thing I wish to do using side chain compression.
So we are all on the same page...I AM NOT CONCERNED AT THE MOMENT WITH PUMPING BASS AND DRUM STUFF. So please do not waste time with all that drum/bass side chain discussion, there's already a universe of that on the web. It is not what I need to know about.
We (as in my fiancee and myself) are writing songs. The lyrical punch is important ergo there are specific points in the songs where the vocals stop and start.
All I am trying to do is one single thing at this time. And that is:
Use side chain compression to squash digital delay in a Send track during the vocals and release the effect when the vocals pause or stop. NOTHING MORE SO AGAIN NO DRUM BASS TALK PLEASE.
My DAW does not support "Native" Side Chain compression however, I do have compressors that will do this. Specifically I am talking about "Ducking" nothing else. I wish to use side chain compression to "Duck" the delay during the vocals, and release the "tail" of the effect (slight delay nothing radical) during the pauses on the vocals. For dynamic effect only, nothing crazy. Think live concert sound where there's that real small slap back from the back of the auditorium or whatever. (See you next Tour....tour.) Got it? That is all I want to accomplish.
I've now seen dozens of videos and read dozens of articles and they all do the same thing. They talk about pumping drum and bass. They also all do the same thing and talk about either Pro Tools, or Logic, or Reaper or studio 1 which all have native abilities for this or come with side chain specific compressors that have the "KEY" icon to make this process simple.
I do not.
What I have is the reaper "Realcomp" compressor which will do this without the need of a "Key". It sort of works. I worked on this last night using a demo recording that came with the DAW just doing the drum/bass thing so I could work with threshold and ratio trying to figure this out. However,
When I placed a vocal loop in a new track (vocals had long phrases and long pauses so I could over drive stuff and clearly hear what was going on.) I couldn't tell if I was actually doing the squash or not.
Their is also a well known side chain compressor called sidekick 6 which does all this, but i''ve downloaded it and it will not load into my DAW (don't know why and don't care at the moment.) also tried another "Side chain" compressor download and it too also failed to load. But the Reaper compressor works fine in my DAW. So this is the one I will be using for the time being
Other aggravation: I've seen videos that tell me I need to have two compressors to do this...one for the track sending the audio and one for the track that is to be affected by the signal. This doesn't make sense to me as I don't need to do that when it comes to drum/bass stuff. the kick signal causes the compressor in the bass track to work and compressor stops when the kick signal is gone. So why I would need to do this for ducking a reverb or delay effect makes no sense to me. If I do have to do this fine, but I would like the clarification once and for all so I can get back to work.
Next Aggravation. "Language or Lack thereof." Too many times I hear/see these videos and they refer to Send Tracks as Aux buses. Excuse me but a Send Effect is essentially send/return (old school PA stuff) The effect is controlled by the return of the effect back to the source in other words blend of levels. Want just barely audible return...turn down the send track signal as it's going back to the source signal. an Aux bus is a straight line...i.e. multiple drum tracks being aux bused through the aux to the main out. Straight line. Send tracks do not do that. (well maybe in the digital world but I have always thought the reverb or delay was sent back to the original instrument track. then out to the main. If I'm wrong please correct me.)
So here's the outline of what I wish to do.
1. I always use send tracks for delay and/or reverb as it's CPU conservation. Yes I also will use send tracks for compression, as it is a means of doing parallel compression (nice effect too by the way) But for this post we are focusing on what the vocal track does to the delay effect in the send track. or send bus whichever is easier for you to wrap your head around.
I know some of you folks most likely do use the Reaper Software. I do not. So I need a basic 1,2,3,4 step by step instructions on how I can set up my vocal track to trigger the "Realcomp" compressor in the send track to squash the delay while there are vocals. Nothing more please just this one specific function.
I've also seen just recently a video where the narrator used a Limiter (huh and why?) and the limiter was after the delay effect. (????) He was of course using Studio 1 DAW and I am not. So that training video was a total waste of my time again.
One more detail as I'm trying to be real specific and give you a visualization of how I set up my vocals.
I record the vocals mono.
Then I copy the vocal track and pan them left and right about 10 and 2 for basic widening. (and of course their's EQ and level balancing and all that)
These two vocal tracks are identical in every way to avod "Phase Issues" and they are then "AUX Bused" to the main stereo out.
the Aux Bus is where I place Compression in the traditional manner used for mixing. It is for the sake of gluing and making the vocals sit in the pocket as the lingo says. Works very well for basic static vocals, but I need to step this up to a higher level hence the need for the dynamics. I do not want to mess with the aux bus effects chains as I like the vocal tone that is created...but again it's still static. Doesn't breath (well it does as I use automation but that's another issue) So again...do I need to create yet another copy of the vocal track to use as a trigger or can I just use one of the two identical vocal mono tracks to trigger the compressor reaction?
I've already done this with manual automation but it takes forever to get done...especially when the song vocals are bouncy and sophisticate (which is the norm not the exception) so I need to use the compression technique to do the automation of the ducking. And it simply sounds better plain and simple.
So can someone please just send me a 1,2,3,4... set of instructions so I can set this up and I can then work with the thresholds, and ratios and release times to fine tune the sound I am seeking to create?
Summary of questions:
How many compressors and where do I place them in the chain of effects before or after?
What is "seeing" what? Is the second compressor seeing the vocals or the configuration of the compressor?
Below is a link to a song we recently did where I do this effect using automation. It's just not as good and clean as it could be but you will get the point. the vocals start out in lower register and are essentially flat. (I do use the Softtube Saturation Knob in the VOX Aux bus to fatten up the vocals) and as the vocals pitch gets higher and builds up to the guitar instrumental interlude the delay gets to go a bit nuts. then is toned down but remains present through the remainder of the song. Like I said it's not as clean and precise as I'd like but it's what I'm aiming at. Control of delay for dynamics.
Please let me know...we have a lot of unfinished material that needs this specific style of dynamics.
Thanks and again my apologies for sounding cranky. Working two jobs and dealing with an assortment of disabilities issues leaves very little time to just sit and be as creative as I'd like to be so I need to be more efficient with my work flow and time management. This is a means to an end as they say. Here's the link to the song as an example.
A Place I'''ve Never Been by LinMar Productions