Shredders vs. "feel players" - an observation

  • Thread starter Thread starter famous beagle
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miroslav said:
Yeah...it is possible for you to play well and "fake" some feeling...though I don't think that playing an instrument and acting are quite the same thing.
With acting you learn how you are *supposed to feel* during a particular line or scene.
You don't ever get those instructions when learning how to play...there is no script saying "plays angrily" or some such thing. :)

And I do think that a good audience can sense/see when a player is giving a good "performance" and when he/she is really feeling every note.
We don't necessarily chastise a good "performer"...but I think when a player is "in the zone", there is a certain "vibe" they exude, though it may or may not always be picked up on by all of the audience. Sometimes the "zone" that a player is in is not the same "zone" that a listener ends up in...but it's all good, as long as the music hits home in some way.
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As famous beagle says, it's subjective. I disagree on a couple of points - I think that performance is performance whether it be theatrical or musical or a mix of the two (and doesn't all good musical performance have a theatrical dimension?). I also don't think that an audience member has any way of knowing when a player is really "in the zone" if that player is good at giving a convincing performance. That "vibe" you are receiving is really coming from you.

And there's nothing wrong with that. If you paid $200 for a ticket to a concert, don't you want the show to be good irrespective of whether the musicians are in a good mood or not? "Sorry, I'm just not into it tonight" from the guitarist is not going to make you feel better about the money you wasted.
 
miroslav said:
While that may be true for the person doing the playing....how does it translate to the music and to the listener?
There's playing fast...and then there's just the "how many notes can I play in one second" mentality that some shredders go for...it's all about the multi-note speed and little else for them.
Playing isn't just a physical "thrill"...mmmmm...there's also the music, right? ;)

Oh...I use to like skiing at 60-70 mph in my glory days and did my share of serious racing, and I also liked going 130 mph on my bike...but I was never into shred all that much, preferring more melodic and "sparse" playing. :)
Maybe it was about the ying/yang thing...maybe if I didn't do the other "speed" things, I would have taken it out on the guitar! :D
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I was drawing a parallel, I wasn't trying to say that people that like to jump out of airplanes all like shed guitar...

It translates to the listener in the same manor that anything else does. If that sort of thing speaks to the listener, it works,. If it doesn't, it doesn't. It all depends on the listener.

Case in point: I dislike Pink Floyd type music. Droning, slow, deprssing music doesn't speak to me. That doesn't mean it doesn't have 'feeling', it means that I, as a listener, am not affected in the intened way.

Just because a piece of music doesn't affect you the way it was intended, doesn't mean that it doesn't have feeling. It most likely means that it has a feeling you don't recieve.
 
famous beagle said:
One such player that comes to mind was Chet Atkins. He was just an amazing all around guitar player---incredibly musical. But even he would shred every once in a while! Granted, he did it with a clean tone and a Gretsch, but he did it more because it was fun --- not because it was serving some deep emotional need within the song!
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Why are "having fun" and "expressing emotion" are mutually exclusive? Why cant we have fun expressing emotions? Have fun playing feel-y music, and have feelings while playing fun shred fast stuff? What a concept.....

I cant tell by watching a guitarist if he is playing with feeling or not. What bugs me is when they shred at lightning speed and the whole time they act like they might as well be updating the office calendar and breaking up with the girl on the phone and flipping burgers with the other hand, all at the same time they are playing these killer riffs.......why would I play like that and choose not to play it with feeling?

Feeling and technique are not unrelated. The more techniques we learn to make sound, the more different ways we can express those feelings. Sometimes I have a particular feeling I want to express, and I have to "invent the technique" to play it. :D
 
These kinds of comments apply to other instruments as well, particularly drums.

I've often felt a pocket playing Phil Rudd or Chad Smith could easily wipe the floor with slopfest Keith Moon, while Paul Bostaph would tear the other arm off Rick Savage.

My opinions though aren't based on the technical prowess of the musician, but whether I like what the guy has to say musically and whether I'd want to hear him do it again the next time I listen to the song.
 
pipelineaudio said:
It is EXTREMLY important to bear in mind a Venn diagram type of thing when thinking about this. A shredder can play ANYTHING a feel player can, by definition, but the reverse is not necessarily true.

It bears repeating: A shredder can play anything a feel player can, but the reverse is not necessarily true.
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You had to know that this would piss people off. :D

I think that the difference is personalities. If you are a shredder, then you think like a shredder. You have shredder tastes. You want shredder things out of life and have shredder goals.

I do not share your Weltanschauung. I think that shit is boring and girlie. It has nothing to do with the rich life that I have lived. I like musical phrases and melodies and humor and lyrics and rhythm and syncopation. All that shit gets covered up by your masturbation.

I don't like playing with shredders. i am not impressed with this discipline that requires you to sit in your basement for 80% of your life practicing scales. I don't like music that is exclusively a platform for showcasing guitar ideas. I scoff at delicate shredder guitars and amps that can only sound like 1 thing (maybe 2). I don't like the attitude that you have to fill yourself up with to go out there in the guitar olympics and compete every night. I especially don't like you tube videos of japanese teenagers shredding on their steve via guitars.

It's cool that a shredder is free to shred, but just know that it is not empirically the ultimate in guitar. It is still a matter of opinion and taste. And to my taste, you guys suck. :D

I'm not really a feel player either. I play by remote control now. I paste together licks sampled from y'all's myspace demos and drop them over my beats to which my little sister raps about the home shopping network and sarah lee desserts.
 
soundchaser59 said:
I cant tell by watching a guitarist if he is playing with feeling or not. What bugs me is when they shred at lightning speed and the whole time they act like they might as well be updating the office calendar and breaking up with the girl on the phone and flipping burgers with the other hand, all at the same time they are playing these killer riffs.......why would I play like that and choose not to play it with feeling?
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What bugs me are the tools like Joe Walsh that make retarded guitar faces even when doing a simple bend. There's nothing lamer than the fake "feel face" that feel guys always use. Do they practice that shit in the mirror or something?
 
Cyrokk said:
These kinds of comments apply to other instruments as well, particularly drums.

I've often felt a pocket playing Phil Rudd or Chad Smith could easily wipe the floor with slopfest Keith Moon, while Paul Bostaph would tear the other arm off Rick Savage.

My opinions though aren't based on the technical prowess of the musician, but whether I like what the guy has to say musically and whether I'd want to hear him do it again the next time I listen to the song.
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Phil Rudd = awesome
 
Greg_L said:
Phil Rudd = awesome
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TOTALLY.

Swear to god, 75% of the time what makes a good band is the drummer, even when the guitars are front and center of everyone's attention.

And I'm a shredding guitarist who has this opinion.
 
Cyrokk said:
TOTALLY.

Swear to god, 75% of the time what makes a good band is the drummer, even when the guitars are front and center of everyone's attention.

And I'm a shredding guitarist who has this opinion.
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Phil Rudd's awesomeness made itself very apparent when he left the band. Boom-whack isn't as simple as it seems. It has to be right.
 
Greg_L said:
What bugs me are the tools like Joe Walsh that make retarded guitar faces even when doing a simple bend. There's nothing lamer than the fake "feel face" that feel guys always use. Do they practice that shit in the mirror or something?
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Same thing, isn't it........ I see your point.

"Feel face"....LOL!! :D :p That's funny....

Maybe Joe Walsh is the one who could be flippin burgers with his other hand....
 
Greg_L said:
What bugs me are the tools like Joe Walsh that make retarded guitar faces even when doing a simple bend. There's nothing lamer than the fake "feel face" that feel guys always use. Do they practice that shit in the mirror or something?
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Funny how we love to snipe at guys who have managed to reach heights of success that we'll never see, eh? Joe Walsh may be a "tool", but he's played far bigger venues than I ever will and I'll bet he's got a lot more cash in the bank than I could dream of. He's been doing it an awfully long time, too.
 
ggunn said:
Funny how we love to snipe at guys who have managed to reach heights of success that we'll never see, eh? Joe Walsh may be a "tool", but he's played far bigger venues than I ever will and I'll bet he's got a lot more cash in the bank than I could dream of. He's been doing it an awfully long time, too.
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So that makes him above criticism? I don't think so. The masses like Britney Spears too. :rolleyes:
 
ggunn said:
Funny how we love to snipe at guys who have managed to reach heights of success that we'll never see, eh? Joe Walsh may be a "tool", but he's played far bigger venues than I ever will and I'll bet he's got a lot more cash in the bank than I could dream of. He's been doing it an awfully long time, too.
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Sniping about the guy that lives down the street doesn't make for good internet conversation because no one else on the board knows who you are talking about.
 
Cyrokk said:
Chad Smith could easily wipe the floor with slopfest Keith Moon
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Those are two of my favorite drummers though; they have one thing in common: a very identifiable style. Guitarists have that too, some shredders and some not. But the key is I have to know who it is, even if they're playing with Pat Boone I should be able to say, hey is that Chad Smith and Brian Setzer playing with Pat Boone? If not, the musicians in question have a problem that feel faces and sweep arpeggios can't solve :cool:

Sniping about the guy that lives down the street doesn't make for good internet conversation because no one else on the board knows who you are talking about.
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Yeah, but they are all on Youtube now! I've made a pretty good living making fun of Youtubers :D
 
What if I play a diminished sweep arpeggio, but close my eyes and make a really painful grimace while I'm doing it?
 
Greg_L said:
So that makes him above criticism? I don't think so. The masses like Britney Spears too. :rolleyes:
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Of course not. It's just funny.

As far as Ms. Spears is concerned, I don't criticize what she does to make a living, either. Not my cuppa, but she obviously has (or at least had) something that a lot of folks like. But she's a mayfly compared to Joe Walsh.
 
Farview said:
I was drawing a parallel, I wasn't trying to say that people that like to jump out of airplanes all like shed guitar...
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I was just kidding around...I know there's no connection to any "speed/death-wish" activities and shredding. :D
 
Unlike Britney Spears, Jo Walsh is not a pathetic incompetent. His playing is entirely appropriate to the material he is doing. I couldn't care less what faces he makes, music is not a fashion show, which is why I detest stage shows with multiple costume changes and coordinated dancing. And a drummer cannot "wipe the floor" with another drummer. It's *not* a competition. Most pros grew up enough to stop playing "battle of the bands" when they got out of high school. Art is *not* a sport.-Richie
 
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