Should you EQ during recording?

  • Thread starter Thread starter amonte
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amonte said:
Sorry - that title wasn't very clear. My question has to do with the ACTUAL recording. I've got some tube preamps, and I also have a Mackie 1202 VLZ. Is it better to go with an un-EQ'ed sound (as with the preamps) while recording, or is it better to adjust some levels (eq levels, not channel levels) prior to recording the track?

Wow... there has been a lot of ground covered since the original post... some of it should stay covered...

FWIW, I'm from the "always be mixing" school of engineering... which means that I'm constantly working to get the sounds to work and play well with each other... my goal is that you should be able to bring a project I've worked on up with a yardstick, set the faders around "0" on the console, set the pans the right way, hit play, and hopefully the song will come up. I've never really achieved that, but I've gotten close a couple of times.

The way I work is by moving mics, changing mics, changing pre's... and then, if it really needs some EQ, I'll add some EQ [compression, FX, etc].... however, I have some really good equalizers [compressors, etc.] so I'm not going to be doing the same level of damage to the audio as "amonte" might [OK... will] with his Mackie desk.

The equalizers on the Mackie desk are absolutely some of the worst equalizers ever conceived by humans, so I would strongly suggest you avoid them at all costs... and while we're in the neighborhood... the myth that subtractive EQ is better than additive EQ is pure, unadulterated, bullshit.

You add the same [sometimes more] phase distortion with subtractive EQ as you do with additive, you have the same head room limitations with subtractive EQ that you have with additive [as you're still boosting the gain at that frequency, you're just boosting it 180 degrees [+/- a couple degrees] out of polarity.

The bottom line to any of this shit is that if it sounds good it is good... what you have to learn is what sounds good and what does not sound good [that's the hard part... any monkey can twiddle some knobs and have something that kinda sounds like music come out of some speakers].

Best of luck with it.
 
Fletcher said:
The equalizers on the Mackie desk are absolutely some of the worst equalizers ever conceived by humans...

OK, I'll bite - what exactly is so terrible about these? When I was looking for a board, all I heard was "get a Mackie". When/why did this change, and what is a better option for someone on a budget?
 
I think to sum it all up...

try not to EQ and try and get the sounds you want by mic placment and tweeking the amps...skins....so on.

then if you still cant seem to get the sounds you want....either book your self in for another Studio day "if you got the money" ...of use the EQ :)

I must say...to me it sounds like..if you have to EQ on the way in then you are not recording the sounds you really like. I have allways seen EQ as a tool for mixing once all the sounds are in the pot..you use the EQ to blend them...not make them
 
amonte said:
OK, I'll bite - what exactly is so terrible about these? When I was looking for a board, all I heard was "get a Mackie". When/why did this change, and what is a better option for someone on a budget?

I think BUDGET is the point. Unless you have 100k to spend on an SSL or a Neve console, then you aren't going to get anything amazing in the eq department. For those looking for budget mixing boards, mackie is a typical and decent choice, but these mixing boards aren't even middle of the road as far as recording consoles go, which can be outrageously expensive. The answer to most of us home recordists with project studios is to get a few nice outboard eqs, outboard pres, outboard compressors, so we don't have to fork out the big bucks for a huge console. But don't be mistaken, when you spend $500 on a 12 channel mackie board with eq, how much of those $500 bucks do you think goes into the TWELVE channels of eq on the board, not a whole lot. And considering that an entry level "nice eq" is about $500 for one channel, the eq on a cheap mixing board seems kinda scary.

So to answer your question, yes there are better options than the mackie, but they still suck as far as the world of equalizers is concerned. For someone on a budget, but willing to spend a bit more money than a you would on mackie to get something a bit better, try soundcraft or allen and heath.

By the way, I think that this is a great thread! I've beeen wondering about these kind of things myself lately. It seems that all my audio savy friends and people on these recording boards are anti-eq in the tracking stage, but I'm surprised how often I hear about pros doing it. I do tend to use some eq during tracking, but very little and it's usually on things I know I'm going to have to eq in the mix anyway. Like for example, if I was forced to use an sm57 on a kick drum, I'm going to eq the hell out of it right away, no second thoughts about it.

However, I think it's very good advice for anyone who hasn't been heavily involved in recording or mixing for a good while. I'm still often very surprised how instuments will fit their way into a mix. At least for me, the solo tracks will often sound very different in a crowded mix than they do alone, and I find myself making changes in eq on those instruments that I wouldn't have ever thought they would have required while tracking them. I also think it takes a long time to develop an ear that can predict what a particular instrument will sound like once it is in a busy mix, because every mix and every song is different. I know if I was throwing eq around all the time at tracking, I'd screw it up, and I think I can say the same is true for most home recordists. In fact I know it's true because I hear peoples bad mixes all of the time!

Another thing is that less experienced recordists tend to make up for poor recording techniques with bad eq, and that is just worse. I know I've been responsible for doing this many times. It's a bad habit. So telling somebody to not eq when tracking is probably good thinking. If they were someone who knew what they were doing well enough to use eq during tracking, then they wouldn't listen to your advice anyway.

My two cents.
 
Flight 16 said:
I must say...to me it sounds like..if you have to EQ on the way in then you are not recording the sounds you really like. I have allways seen EQ as a tool for mixing once all the sounds are in the pot..you use the EQ to blend them...not make them

I'm not trying to EQ anything. I've never even used the mixer on a project yet - I originally intended this thread as an opinion thread - not realizing that the bulk of the board would sway in one direction. I must say though, I have enjoyed the dialogue a LOT.

noiseportrait said:
I think BUDGET is the point. Unless you have 100k to spend on an SSL or a Neve console, then you aren't going to get anything amazing in the eq department. For those looking for budget mixing boards, mackie is a typical and decent choice, but these mixing boards aren't even middle of the road as far as recording consoles go, which can be outrageously expensive. The answer to most of us home recordists with project studios is to get a few nice outboard eqs, outboard pres, outboard compressors, so we don't have to fork out the big bucks for a huge console. But don't be mistaken, when you spend $500 on a 12 channel mackie board with eq, how much of those $500 bucks do you think goes into the TWELVE channels of eq on the board, not a whole lot. And considering that an entry level "nice eq" is about $500 for one channel, the eq on a cheap mixing board seems kinda scary.

Understood. That does make a lot of sense.
 
Fletcher said:
and while we're in the neighborhood... the myth that subtractive EQ is better than additive EQ is pure, unadulterated, bullshit.

You add the same [sometimes more] phase distortion with subtractive EQ as you do with additive, you have the same head room limitations with subtractive EQ that you have with additive [as you're still boosting the gain at that frequency, you're just boosting it 180 degrees [+/- a couple degrees] out of polarity.

The thing that bothers me about this statement is that there are numerous instances of this "myth" across the net that adamantly state that boosting should be restrained while cutting is generally preferred. I would think the results of cutting vs. boosting are highly dependent on the hardware design and approach to EQing i.e., Parametric, Graphic, Analogue filters etc.

I imagine phasing is more of an issue with digital EQ vs Analog too. So, a little clarification is in order unless you are promoting the statement that all EQs will phase equally in +dbs as in -dbs. Not disagreeing mind you, just looking for some additional information to support your supposition and to see if your position holds true in the digital (software) and analog realm.

MM
 
I'm with Light and Fletcher. If the sound I'm going for requires me to use EQ, I will by all means print that to tape (or disc). I avoid printing any radical EQ effects, like a telephone style vocal or something like that. But especially on tracks like drums, 9 times out of 10, I will need to cut some lo-mids. I know that during tracking, why put it off until mix? I might not eq as drastically as I think I need to, but at least get the track heading in the right direction.

The last thing I want to do when doing overdubs is listen to some tracks that should have been recorded with eq. What a pain in the ass to have to adjust EQ's on playback each time we switch to a different song (this really only applies to working on analog consoles, not DAWS)?

This whole notion of delaying every decision until the the mix drives me crazy. For me, the "always mixing" approach is what I like best.
 
For me I try to commit the biggest sounds right off the bat. If it takes a little EQ to get things to sound bigger, so be it. If it takes a little compression (or a lot) then I'll do that as well.

When tracking my sole concern is to get everything to sound huge. Why? Because it is easy to trim a large sound into a smaller one, but not easy to make thin recordings get bigger.

And in my experience clients will ALWAYS want the biggest sounds you can get. Very few people will walk in and want a thin screechy guitar tone like David Byrne from the Talking Heads.
 
Fletcher said:
... and while we're in the neighborhood... the myth that subtractive EQ is better than additive EQ is pure, unadulterated, bullshit.

You add the same [sometimes more] phase distortion with subtractive EQ as you do with additive, you have the same head room limitations with subtractive EQ that you have with additive [as you're still boosting the gain at that frequency, you're just boosting it 180 degrees [+/- a couple degrees] out of polarity.

But isn't there more to it than that?

Any time you fiddle with a sonic signal you will potentially introduce artefacts like phase distortion etc.

But what about how our ears worK - both as mechanical/accoustic devices in their own right, or psychoaccoustically with the brain.

A fundamental feature of the human ear is that it detects additive eq much more easily than subtractive eq. We've all heard this for ourselves.

So if you can fix a sound by subtractive eq instead of additive eq, surely that has to be a more desirable outcome
 
Bulls Hit said:
But isn't there more to it than that?

Any time you fiddle with a sonic signal you will potentially introduce artefacts like phase distortion etc.

But what about how our ears worK - both as mechanical/accoustic devices in their own right, or psychoaccoustically with the brain.

A fundamental feature of the human ear is that it detects additive eq much more easily than subtractive eq. We've all heard this for ourselves.

So if you can fix a sound by subtractive eq instead of additive eq, surely that has to be a more desirable outcome

Phase distortion is the cornerstone of analog equalization... in fact, you can't do analog equalization without it. Digital EQ works quite differently, which is actually why you will usually apply way higher levels of equalization in the digital domain than the analog domain... you don't hear the phase distortion artifacts [because there aren't supposed to be any] so it's not quite as a dramatic effect... but I digress

The way an analog equalizer works [all analog EQ's] is that you have some filters... they determine at which frequency the signal will be added or "subtracted" from the signal [you can have all kinds of groovy controls... from 31 filter sets in a graphic EQ to variable bandwidth in a parametric EQ but it's all still filters]. If you're adding to the signal you're taking a section of the frequency spectrum, isolating that area, then adding more of that area to the original signal... with "subtractive" EQ you're adding the same information you would have been adding with positive EQ, except that information is 180 degrees out of polarity, and will cancel that section of the original signal, thus causing a "dip" in the signal.

Any time you run through a filter you will get phase distortion... when you run through a low pass filter it will "slow down" the high end... when you use a hi pass filter it will "slow down" the low end, this is called phase distortion [OK, it's a really oversimplified explanation but work with me]. For the most part this is why we like, or dislike the tone of an equalizer... the other big reason we will like or dislike an equalizer is a function of the equalizer's headroom, and it's ability to deliver "current on demand" to the circuit.

Ever notice that the guitar player with his 30watt Vox amp is burying the bass player with his 300watt SVT? It quite simply takes more energy to form a bass wave... in this case the energy is called electricity, so to properly form a bass wave you will require some extra current from the unit's power supply to be delivered to the equalizer pretty much instantaneously so the low end wave will be faithfully reproduced.

Consoles like the Mackie have really [I mean REALLY] shitty power supplies [same with Allen & Heath, and Soundcraft, etc.]. This means they're not going to deliver the power requested by the circuit in order to pass a proper bass wave... coupled with the phase shift that is produced from the circuit rolling off too high on the bottom [20Hz-20kHz is woefully insufficient from a linear phase perspective... 3Hz-300kHz will give you a pretty linear phase response throughout the audio specturm, but "20 to 20" won't], and we get what we perceive as a thin, nasty, shitty sounding event... which is why those desks don't cost all that much... because when you start to get into bigger power supplies, a grounding scheme that can handle the dissapation of the power after it's been used, making a circuit that can pass low end almost down to DC, and on it's way up to 'light'... you're talking about some pretty tricked out components in a pretty tricked out design... sorta like why a Bentley is a tad more expensive than a Honda, again... I digress.

A fundamental feature of the human ear is that it detects additive eq much more easily than subtractive eq. We've all heard this for ourselves.

So if you can fix a sound by subtractive eq instead of additive eq, surely that has to be a more desirable outcome

It ain't necessarily so... because us humans perceive additive eq more easily than subtractive EQ we tend to use less EQ when boosting than when cutting... which means you'll use less gain in the area of the EQ's action [remember, that subtractive EQ is just additive EQ 180' out of phase to the original signal]... which gives us the net result of not taxing the power supply of the desk as heavily, and not getting into quite as steep filter slopes which add even more artifacts [phase distortion] to the signal... which leads directly back to that it's an urban myth [and suburban, and probably country too] that subtractive EQ is "better" than additive EQ.

I will say that I too have heard this myth recited a whole bunch of times... I just got a bit curious as to why subtractive EQ was "better"... so I asked around to some of my buddies who are audio hardware designers and they sorta came up with an answer for me [the answer being "it isn't"]. Just because something is repeated a whole bunch of times... like you can't have the phantom power on when you're using a ribbon microphone, that doesn't make it a reality... it only makes it a commonly repeated mis-statement.
 
Fletcher said:
… I just got a bit curious as to why subtractive EQ was "better"... so I asked around to some of my buddies who are audio hardware designers and they sorta came up with an answer for me [the answer being "it isn't"] …

And by the way, his "buddies" included guys like George Massenburg, the guy who invented the parametric equalizer.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Well, that answers my questions. Unless some mastering engineer can point out excessive phasing issues in music made with positive swings of EQ vs negative, I'm good with it.

In fact, I regularly run the kick +5 around 50Hz and then back down the volume instead of just cutting the 200-350Hz to clean up the mud. I get a little more oomph that way.
 
Quote from Chuck Ainlay (Mark Knopfler ,Willie Nelson, Chet Atkins, etc.) in "Behind the Glass" :

"When I track, I'll try to not overdo the EQ. I'm not afraid to EQ, but I try to use good equalizers and, if I'm unsure, I won't go too far- I'll leave it for later. Once you commit to too much EQ or too much compression, it's very hard to get rid of. Generally, when you mix, you're going to make it brighter, anyhow".

To me tracking is about concentrating on getting the best performance. Having the talent twiddle their thumbs while you're trying to dial in a EQ setting isn't helping to achieve this.
 
What about using mics with lo-cut/rolloff switches? Aren't you EQing there? What's the difference between doing that at the board vs the mic?

When I record nylon string guitar I cut the low freqs pretty good to get rid of boominess. I have no doubt my bedroom/studio is the source of the problem but I like the results better by EQing at record-time vs mix-time.
 
EddieRay said:
What about using mics with lo-cut/rolloff switches? Aren't you EQing there? What's the difference between doing that at the board vs the mic?

Sure, the moment you choose a certain type of mic or mics and preamp you are "EQing". Obviously you will need to commit to the frequency curve of a the mic you plan on using when you are recording (unless you are going direct). So it makes sense to choose the best mic with the frequency characteristics that match the sound you ultimately want to get.The question is when do you commit a given type of EQ? Can you record something to tape (or disk) without the mic's frequency response? No, unless going direct. Can you record something without commiting board or outboard EQ to tape? Yes.

If using the lo-cut switches on the mic is giving you the sound that you want, then there's no good reason not to use it. If you find that the high pass filter on the board will allow you to cut off at a better frequency then it may be a reason to use that in it's place. If using the EQ from a Mackie board with a mic from Radio Shack is giving you exactly the sound you want, use that as well.

Everyone has their own workflow and "rules" that they like to adhere by. I doubt that this thread will change that much, and hopefully debates like this will continue. It's one of the things that makes recording and talking about it fun. If everyone recorded in the same way, or by a strict set of rules, everything would pretty much sound the same and be pretty boring.
 
Interesting info, Fletcher...

I'm gonna check out that link too, Tom.......

But in any case, my preference is still a minimalist approach to tracking in terms of EQ, whether additive or subtractive.... EMMV........
 
I'd like to add that how well your eq works has alot to do with the acoustic enviroment your working in. If your having to add 3 to 6 db of gain before you hear the eq working I suggest that its not always the eq. While I have a distaste for the Mackie eq personally, I believe you should be able to hear it way before your pushing that far.

If your not paying attention to the control room acoustics your just wasting your time with eq.


SoMm
 
EddieRay said:
What about using mics with lo-cut/rolloff switches? Aren't you EQing there? What's the difference between doing that at the board vs the mic?

When I record nylon string guitar I cut the low freqs pretty good to get rid of boominess. I have no doubt my bedroom/studio is the source of the problem but I like the results better by EQing at record-time vs mix-time.

The theory there is if you aren't going to need the signal anyways you may as well get rid of it. For a lot of sources the only thing that would be down there is rumbles and bad stuff anyway, so why record it?
 
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