set up/ intonation

[daav]

Looking for some opinions about this, essentially as a newbie.

What exactly does this entail usually, is "set up" and adjusting intonation the same thing?

How often do you get your instuments set up by a "pro"?

How much is a good price for such work?

Can anyone who is fairly mechanically adept follow some instuctions and do this themselves? If so is there a guide anywhere that would allow me to DIY my way to being a bit better of a guitar tech?

I'm pretty sure the intonation on my LP studio (early nineties) is way out, but i am inherently more DIY-oriented than pay-a-pro oriented. How do i teach myself to fish here? I also have an old Japanese Strat that I could use as a test if there is danger of f'ing the thing up more than it is now.

Thanks,
Daav.

 

[scrubs]

Ideally, a set-up involves adjusting the instrument to it's best intonation & action. This may involve tweaking the nut, bridge, truss rod, and frets. Usually, you can get pretty close with bridge (string height and length) and truss rod (neck bow) adjustments. You can do this yourself, of course, but a pro will generally do it better (more experience) and will be less likely to damage the guitar (especially with truss rod and fret stuff). A pro set-up will typically cost $50-$100 depending on the market and guitar. Some folks get/do a setup with every string change. Some do it seasonally. I do it if I change string gauges or if it sounds like it needs it. Here's a good site with DIY tips.

http://www.projectguitar.com/

 

[metalhead28]

Adjusting the intonation is definitely one part of a good set-up. However what most people call "set-up" would often involve adjusting the action, perhaps adjusting the truss rod or bridge/nut height to get everything right as well as adjusting the intonation. Any of these things are easily accomplished by someone who is pretty handy and has a good understanding of their guitar. I'm sure there are tutorials out the wazoo all over the internet. Don't be afraid to give em a try. Don't worry, it's not a black art or anything, get yourself an electronic tuner and a few small tools and go to work!

edit!

scrubs you covered this perfectly - sorry your post just got there before mine!

 

[DC-XPL]

A "professional" set-up usually involves the following:
-string change
-action adjustment
-neck/truss rod adjustment (if necessary)
-nut and bridge adjustments (may need to widen slots for heavier gauges)
-adjust pickup height for balanced output
-spray pots and switches with cleaner
-polish
-file down jagged fret ends

I used to get my guitars set up about twice a year (spring and fall). Out of all the setups that I paid for, only one was truly excellent. I was always dissapointed by the "professional" setups - the guitars would start buzzing after a few days and eventually fall completely out of adjustment. I recently started reading Dan Erlewine's books about maintaining your guitar. The last few times I changed strings, I followed the procedures in the book and did my own setups. So far, I'm very pleased with the results. I'll go to a shop if I need a refret or to have something repaired, but for general maintenance I'll never pay for a setup again.

 

[reshp1]

DIY all the way on this one. You can easily learn the techniques and save yoourself the money, not to mention the hassle of having you instrument in the shop. It's fairly hard to damage the guitar if you only adjust a little at a time and don't force anything. The only time I would bring it to a professional is if the guitar is so far off that the normal trussrod/bridge adjustment can't compensate, even at the limit of it's travel. I looks like the link scrubs pasted has some pretty good instruction. I guess the only tip I have is that it's an iterative process, i.e. adjusting the trussrod messes up the tuning, bringing the guitar back into tune slightly affects the relief of the fretboard (trussrod adjustment), and both affect the intonation. Just be patient and be prepared to repeat as necessary.

 

[daav]

THanks everyone, especially for the guitar projects link, that is a great resource.

Now I am all fired up to get out of work and try to get my guitars back in shape.

Daav.

 

[Light]

Looking for some opinions about this, essentially as a newbie.

What exactly does this entail usually, is "set up" and adjusting intonation the same thing?

Set up on a Les Paul typically involves the following:

• Remove the strings
• clean electronics
• clean/oil fingerboard
• clean polish guitar
• adjust the nut slot height (careful, you could easily fuck this up, and if you don't have the right tools or haven't done it a few thousand times, you will)
• put on new strings
• adjust neck bow (careful, you could break the truss rod)
• finish adjusting the nut, if nessicary (same caution as above)
• adjust bridge height (too low, it buzzes, too high and it sucks to play)
• adjust intonation with a Strobe tuner (if you don't have a strobe, you can't get it right. Period. Nothing else is as acurate)
• Adjust pickup height

All in all, about $500 worth of tools, if you go with a Virtual Strobe, more like $1500 if you go with an analog Strobe. Plus the room to store them, and of course then you need to learn to use them. Many of the skills involved are NOT simple, and it takes a lot of experience to get it right.

How often do you get your instuments set up by a "pro"?

THAT'S a loaded question. I mean, everytime I setup my instruments, it is by a pro (me), but then there is that old saying about a coblers children, you know?

How much is a good price for such work?

Our hourly shop rate is $70 an hour, and we charge about $75 for a setup. Expect it to take you much longer to do it right. We do it more often.

Can anyone who is fairly mechanically adept follow some instuctions and do this themselves? If so is there a guide anywhere that would allow me to DIY my way to being a bit better of a guitar tech?

Some of it, yes; some of it, no. I would never recomend that you adjust your nut, as you don't have either the tools or the experience. Same with intonation, if you don't have a Strobe. The truss rod is a more difficult question, as the likelyhood of a problem is fairly slim, but if something does get fucked up, you are in for a VERY expensive repair. Also, I don't have any way of telling you how to adjust it, as I have done enough that I just measure it by eye. Fret at the first fret and the fret where the neck starts getting fatter as it goes into the body. Around the middle of that length of string, you should have about a playing cards thickness between the top of the fret, and the bottom of the string. Adjusting the saddle height is no big deal, if you have the tools. Just make sure not to strip out the allens on a strat-style bridge, as they are a pain to replace (sometimes).

I'm pretty sure the intonation on my LP studio (early nineties) is way out, but i am inherently more DIY-oriented than pay-a-pro oriented. How do i teach myself to fish here? I also have an old Japanese Strat that I could use as a test if there is danger of f'ing the thing up more than it is now.

At least the first time, get it done by a professional. You will be much happier with the results.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[ibanezrocks]

I agree with light, on most of it atleast. Don't bother learning to adjust the truss rod incase you do screw it up because you wont be able to fix it, and adjusting the nut is the same thing really. If you're a newbie to setting up your guitar start with the simpler things like adjusting the bridge and pickup height, then move on to intonation. You really can't break your guitar by trying to set up the intonation unless in your mind that involves throwing it off a building, and if you can get it close enough by ear that you can't tell if its off or not then good, but if you can't get it intonated well enough by yourself get it professionally done, theres no harm in trying that.

 

[apl]

Hey, Light, I’ve set up my own Epiphone, Squier, Fender, Alvarez, Washburn and of course Carvin guitars for a very long time. I’ve been skeptical of your admonishment that a strobotuner is necessary. So I did the math.

The Boss TU-12 is good to ±1 cent or 0.06%. The Peterson Virtual Strobe is good to ±0.1 cent or 0.006%. Since pitch is proportional to length, 1 cent is 0.0155 inches on a 25 3/4" scale guitar and 0.1 cent is 0.00155 inches. A common adjusting screw is a #4-40 and one turn is 0.025”, or one cent is about two-thirds of a turn. It’s easy enough to do a much smaller turn, therefore a strobotuner is justified.

How do you feel about the how the guitar is positioned during the process? It seems there’s at least a tenth of a cent from laying a guitar on its back relative to holding it normally.

I’m surprised you recommend the precision of the strobotuner for the intonation, but use the playing card for a feeler gage. I usually hold the guitar like I’m playing it, fret the low E at 1 with my left hand, fret at the highest fret with my right pinkie, and tap around 7 with my right index finger. I try to get it where I can’t tell if the string is touching by just looking, but see movement when I tap. My guess is that I’m in the neighborhood of .010” using that technique.

BTW, I'd never try cutting a nut.

 

[ggunn]

The question on my mind is whether one can hear the difference in accuracy.

I have a calculator, too... ;^)

A high E open string on a guitar is 329.64 Hz. The F above it is 349.24 Hz. The diff between them is 19.6 Hz, and that's a semitone. One cent is 1/100 of a semitone, and that's 0.196 Hz. Two "E" notes 1 cent apart generate a beat frequency of 0.196 Hz, or 1 beat per approximately 5.1 seconds.

Now, when we set the intonation on the high E string, it's at the octave fret, so all the frequencies are doubled, so a 1 cent error generates a beat frequency of 0.392 Hz, or a beat every 2.55 seconds.

Surely that's close enough for most people.

 

[Light]

The Boss TU-12 is good to ±1 cent or 0.06%.

They can say that until they are blue in the face, but that doesn't make the marketing department any less of a group of liers.

Or, hey, do it yourself. I have seen many people do that, and there guitars are rarely close.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[apl]

They can say that until they are blue in the face, but that doesn't make the marketing department any less of a group of liers.

Or, hey, do it yourself. I have seen many people do that, and there guitars are rarely close.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Excuse me, sir, but I was sticking up for you. Remember, I said:

...a strobotuner is justified.

 

[Light]

Excuse me, sir, but I was sticking up for you. Remember, I said:

I really should read all of a persons post, your right. I'm afraid I have just seen to many people tell me I was wrong. Knee Jerk reaction. I'm sorry.

We do intonation at our amp in the back room, so the guitar is always sitting in our lap in a standard playing possition.

And I don't use a playing card as a feeler gauge. I use my eye and my experience. In other words, I just look.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[apl]

I really should read all of a persons post, your right. I'm afraid I have just seen to many people tell me I was wrong. Knee Jerk reaction. I'm sorry.

It's cool. My knee jerk reaction was that you don't need that kind of precision, but when I did the math, I found out that it was as you said. Now I'm gonna have to get a strobotuner!

When we were going to school in Champaign, our neighbor's part-time live in boyfriend was Joe Walsh's tech. He let me see Joe's guitars and of course, he had a Conn.

 

[freshmattyp]

Maybe now you'll just listen to what the man has to say, and while you're at it quit pimping Carvin. It's bordering on spam.

 

[andyhix]

my .02 - have a pro do it the first time, so you know exactly what your guitar is capable of sounding/playing like. I tried doing it myself a few times and then finally got a shop to do it, and it was like getting a new guitar. awesome. and it was only 35 bucks or something. Once it is done correctly by a pro, if you choose to dIY the next time, you'll have a better idea what to expect, and what to shoot for.

-Andy

 

[apl]

Maybe now you'll just listen to what the man has to say, and while you're at it quit pimping Carvin. It's bordering on spam.

I've always played close attention to what Light has to say, and I'll keep relating my opinions on Carvin, too. I don't know if it's spam, maybe it's more like potted meat.

 

[ggunn]

It's cool. My knee jerk reaction was that you don't need that kind of precision, but when I did the math, I found out that it was as you said. Now I'm gonna have to get a strobotuner!

I'd still like to know how much of an error is audible. Just because one can see a tiny error in intonation with a strobe that one can't with a quartz tuner, it doesn't *neccessarily* follow that such an error can be heard.

F'rinstance, some high dollar cable companies claim very low capacitance values, which may even be true, but if one does the math, the high freq rolloff diff is in the megahertz range. OK, so the cable is "better", but who cares?

If, for another example, the variance in the intonation of a guitar with respect to temperature differences in which the instrument is played are larger than the degree of imprecision of the strobotuner, then the precision of the strobe is immaterial. Every system is at the mercy of the largest variable.

And please don't fly off the handle at me; I am of open mind and will not hesitate to change my opinion (which is that setting intonation with a quartz tuner sweep needle is good enough for most guitarists) in the light of good evidence. Be gentle with me; I *am* an engineer, after all, and I just can't help myself. ;^)

 

[mjareo]

I'd still like to know how much of an error is audible.

I may be alone in this, but in my experience, you may not notice that small of an error in a broad sense (you may not notice that it is audibly flat or sharp) but you will notice the difference in all the nuances of your tone. If your intonation is spot on, your tone will be even up and down your fretboard and you will often have a clearer tone with perhaps better sustain.

Those who are more professional in this, does that sound about right?

 

[ggunn]

I may be alone in this, but in my experience, you may not notice that small of an error in a broad sense (you may not notice that it is audibly flat or sharp) but you will notice the difference in all the nuances of your tone. If your intonation is spot on, your tone will be even up and down your fretboard and you will often have a clearer tone with perhaps better sustain.

Those who are more professional in this, does that sound about right?

There is no such thing as "spot on", there are only varying degrees of uncertainty. How much uncertainty is tolerable, or even noticeable, is the essence of my question.