serious help on distortion gutar

[findawaywithout]

alright so i guess i'm somewhat of a newb in all this, and chances are this questions been asked before, but i desperately need some advice. my problem is when i record my distortion guitar, it comes out extremely muddy/trashy/and without much of a low end, which doesnt make much sense because it seems like theres such a big difference in how i hear it when im playing it, then how i hear it after its recorded and playing through computer speakers. ive even double tracked to get more well-roundedness to it and put high/low pass limiters on each but i havent had much success with that either. now ive read countless articles/threads about mic position, point it more to the cone you get a more harsh/high end sound, tilt it a couple inches away from the cone, you get more low end...don't use a lot of distortion when recording...find the best speaker out of the 4 and record from that one...etc. somehow, none of this is working for me. i have two heads to run through, either a marshall solid state mg100 or an ampeg vl-1002 tube amp. my cab is a marshall 4 x 12. i can use stock distortions on the amps or run through a boss metal zone/equalizer/supressor. i run my mics either through a firepod or through a mixer then into my soundcard. as far as mics go, im using the shure 57s. now obviosuly eq after the recording makes things sound somewhat better, but you obviously cant make a garbage can sound like a crash cymbal using eq. but if anyone has any eqing tips that would also be greatly appreciated. thanks a lot.



p.s. my apologies for the extensiveness of this post.

 

[scrubs]

http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html

That's the tome. Read it. Do it. Read it again.

Are you monitoring through headphones (with decent isolation) while placing your microphones? That's pretty critical. You need to be able to hear what the mic is hearing, as that will be different from what you're hearing in the room. Also, if you like what you're hearing in the room, consider adding a room mic in addition to the close mic.

 

[metalhead28]

now ive read countless articles/threads about mic position, point it more to the cone you get a more harsh/high end sound, tilt it a couple inches away from the cone, you get more low end...don't use a lot of distortion when recording...find the best speaker out of the 4 and record from that one...etc. somehow, none of this is working for me.

Marshall + Metal Zone... ...I'm assuming heavy metal, right?

Let's go!

First things first....lose the Metal Zone unless you want it to sound horrible. I'm assuming the amp sounds halfway decent. If so, halfway decent is as good as the recording is gonna get so don't be upset by that. A great sounding amp is preferred, obviously, so lets just assume that, shall we?

You don't want to rely on EQ after the fact. There is no reason why you can't take care of that beforehand.
Sounds to me like you're probably starting with a bad source sound.
Try this. Set everything on 5. Yes 5.
Stick the mic straight in to the center of the speaker, right on the grill.
Record something. What does it sound like?
Honking at you because the gain is too low? Too harsh because of mic placement? Adjust JUST A LITTLE (Just a little means turn the gain up to 6 or move the mic 5 degrees/1/4 inch....either/or....not both...one step at a time, baby!)....and do it again.
Whats wrong now? Too much/not enough low end/midrange/sweet goodness? Adjust accordingly... Repeat, repeat, repeat....
You get the idea, right? You've got to approach things from a safe distance. Adjust everything in small increments. Figure out what every small adjustment does for you. Creep up on the right sound. Know what I mean, Vern?
If you're doing heavy metal, don't expect to get a phenomenal sound from one or two tracks of a mediocre amp. A truly great heavy sound comes from careful layering of possibly several different amps and super tight performances. I'm not trying to discourage you or anything, I'm just urging realism. You'll probably end up getting the best results from doing several layers of guitars performed with tightness rivaling that of a nun's arse and with far less gain than you would imagine.

You mentioned using 57(s)...plural. Are you putting more than one on the cab?
Lets talk a little about two mics.

Two mics can be glorious or a pain in the ass. If you're into a tight, in your face sound and want to put both mics right up on the speaker you're way ahead of the pain in the ass crowd, so just do that
With 2 57's try this.
One mic straight on the center of the dustcap. One mic right beside it but angled inward at about 30 - 40 degrees, but also basically aimed at the dustcap. The mixture of an on axis mic and an off axis mic make for a great sound when mixed carefully. You'll get a nice broad range and a nice eq just by balancing the two mic's levels. If you keep both mics the exact same distance from the speaker you probably won't have phase problems but just to be sure do this.
Slap on some headphones to monitor your mics. Put down the guitar and crank up the amp. Listen to the "fizz" through the phones. Don't move the center mic, but move the off axis mic around until you hear the volume get the loudest. When I say move it around, I mean move it away or towards the speaker. Try to maintain a decent angle from the other mic so you still get the off-axis tone. What I'm saying is, you don't want to end up with both mics pointing straight at the speaker right next to each other even though that would probably be the most "phase-aligned" placement. You're feelin' me right?
Once you get that together, repeat all the above steps to try to dial in a sound with 2 mics. I'm not saying you'll love that placement but it's a good method to try.

Or just go read Slipperman's Galactic Guitar Omnibus. Good stuff!

Good luck!

 

[Sonixx]

If it really sounds good in the room then you can capture it

Here's a clip excerpt I recorded this using this technique... Paper Airplane

The amp is a 5150 and the cab is a Mesa 2x12 with a V30

Mics: i5 and a MD421

Mix the mics into a single mono track. This technique really smooths the tone and allows for a lot of tonal options.

White noise was used for the i5 mic placement to give the brightest tone.

Here's some pics of the micing

 

[metalhead28]

That sounds totally bitchin' Sonixx!

Good pics too!

 

[Sonixx]

thanks metalhead28 \m/

 

[punkin]

I hate bitchin but the guitar sounds great! Sounds wet and squeeky (that's good too).

 

[Sonixx]

thanks punkin

 

[findawaywithout]

thanks for the help guys, i'll definately give everything a try a see how it works

 

[volltreffer]

One more tip that might help: don't cut away all the mids at the amp - you might be missing them without knowing...

aXel

 

[findawaywithout]

another problem im having is that when i record the guitar, it sounds too distorted and more like a wall of sound where you have a hard time distinguishing notes, but when i turn the gain/distortion down on the amp it sounds really weak and thin. any suggestions?

 

[Sonixx]

my bet is the quality of your distortion is lacking, regardless of what it sounds like in the room. my son's band's guitarist amps sound pretty good in the room, but hell when you get close and listen, or mic them. the room's decay and reverb smooths and adds to the tone.

based on your description, probably the majority of your distortion is preamp. this needs to be balanced by the power stage. but to do this, you'll need to crank it (i.e. loud). I know nothing of your amps so I can't help there. my recommendation is to sell the two amps and get something else that fits what you want to do. maybe a 5150 ot XXX or something.

 

[sandler]

wow sonixx

I have no business being any where close to this thread, but I'm having some problems also...heh, I'll stick to the newbie section to learn.

Just wanted to say that you're "End Of Heartache" cover is fantastic Sonixx.

 

[grn]

get your amp off the ground in a chair (wooden preferably), put it in a good sounding room, take the low end out of it almost completely, boost mids and highs... turn distortion WAY down (you can make it sound thicker later by double tracking it). put your ear almost next to it, at the very least right in front of it but a few feet away, get it to sound good that way. then stick a mic in front of it towards the edge of the speaker cone. shouldn't be too bad.

 

[grn]

everyone here always forgets the basics... just get it off the ground and take out the low end and boost the mids more... then just turn your distortion a lot farther down than you think you need it, that will get rid of most of your muddiness

 

[findawaywithout]

ooh, thanks for the tip. i'll give that one a shot.

 

[jndietz]

I had this issue recording my DigiTech Metal Master. I got rid of it and opted for more of a tube driven over drive/distortion. Its a hell of a lot easier to record, believe me.

Try another distortion is my suggestion. It'll make this all easier.

 

[Sonixx]

... Just wanted to say that you're "End Of Heartache" cover is fantastic Sonixx.

Thanks for checking it out...

 

[sikter]

the guitar sounds great! Sounds wet and squeeky (that's good too).

I liked it too!

Here is guitar I recorded a few yers ago. I made my own efect, and pluged pedal directly to old PC using old version Cool Edit 1,2 (or something)
Guitar was cheap Squier Strat.
Today, I have much better guitar, PC, Adobe Audition, Fender Amplifier etc but I can't get this particular sound which I need for one song.

Play Rock test 6 here:
http://the-sikter.magix.net/

(interesting thing about drums here is that I just needed something to test and I used midi drums from Radio Goo Goo)

 

[Sonixx]

Not bad for a DI...