Secrets to burning an error-free CD after mastering?

[masteringhouse]

whoa what does all that lingo mean?

LBR - Laser Beam Recorder
CU - a type of error when reading a CD

My translation of what Brad is saying is basically that the CD-R that you send to the plant is read into a machine that will be used for duplicating and errors can (and will) crop up during this read process. Some of these errors are correctable and occur during the normal process of reading a CD. Others, like C2 errors, are not correctable and may result in your CD-R being rejected.

Etiher way, the final CD is not an exact clone due to the number of errors on the source and final disc. To be technical given that the media does have errors, even duplicated CDs are not perfect clones of each other. Each have their own number of errors that progressively get worse as you add dust, scratches, smudges, etc.

Brad, please fill in the gaps ...

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

As long as we’re talking Redbook CD I always recommend a 4X or less burning speed for audio.

The problem is, Tim, that as time goes on, that truism becomes less and less true for two reasons.

First the number of quality burners and/or software that will actually go down to speeds that low is diminishing. I've seen systems that will only go down to 8x, for example.

Second, many of the higher speed drives these days actually perform better at slightly higher speeds than they do at their lowest speeds. Many MEs using common Plextor drives swear by 8x as being a sweet spot. I like the general rule of about 20% of the burner's max speed. But even both of those are not hard and fast rules, it varies by burner. I've said it before, I'll say it again, both of my VeloCD burners work best at higher speeds, as good at 48x as my Plextor is at 8x, and they did no better at 4x than they did at 48x. (It's a crying shame that TDK disco'd those drives so quickly; they were a undiscovered gem in my book. I still use my TDK external to this day with my laptop for location work.)

G.

 

[bblackwood]

LBR - Laser Beam Recorder
CU - a type of error when reading a CD

A CU is an uncorrectable error.

My translation of what Brad is saying is basically that the CD-R that you send to the plant is read into a machine that will be used for duplicating and errors can (and will) crop up during this read process. Some of these errors are correctable and occur during the normal process of reading a CD. Others, like C2 errors, are not correctable and may result in your CD-R being rejected.

Pretty much, but remember that C2 errors by themselves will not cause a plant rejection. We won't ship any masters with C2s, but that's just to play it safe (and I can't recall the last time we cut a disc with C2s anyway). IME, C2's happen in bursts, primarily due to bad media.

Etiher way, the final CD is not an exact clone due to the number of errors on the source and final disc. To be technical given that the media does have errors, even duplicated CDs are not perfect clones of each other. Each have their own number of errors that progressively get worse as you add dust, scratches, smudges, etc

Bingo!

Thanks for the clarifications, Tom.

 

[psongman]

Hi, well, finally got back to my search for a better playing CD. I have played almost everyone of the CD's I have burned, song for song, and they all play fine on almost every player I own in my house, so I am leaning towards the inability of those (their CD players) I gave or sold the CD to read the disc correctly.

I have been counseling a few people to get a CDrom lens cleaning CD and they have all replied, to the direction, Wow, I never have done that in all the years I have owned my player. I believe we need to redirect our listeners in these fine points of audio caring and sharing. I am blessed by all the messages. Please keep them coming...if we can assist others with the same consistent concerns.

I do use CD inkjet printable Taiyo Yudens and I am going to burn at 8x as I actually spent a long afternoon, listening and relistening and it seems that the 8x has a bit more bite. The length of time to burn cd's for others is just too long at 4x, and it does seem like it doesn't yield the best results. I will switch back to 4x if you think it is a necessary corrrection but will try a few more at 8x. Oh, if you are interested, the Fujis they sell at like K-Mart are the same exact CD type that I bought at Supermedia, had a trusted computer guy reaffirm this, so those not needing ones that can be printed on or such, then save your money and get those, my secret, psingman

 

[Reggie]

I actually spent a long afternoon, listening and relistening and it seems that the 8x has a bit more bite.

That is really odd. You must have really good speakers/ears, and perhaps not so good CD player.

If you want peace of mind that you are doing everything in your power to make the best burns possible, use a Plextor drive (model 716, 760, or Plexwriter Premium) and Taiyo Yuden discs at 8X (give or take). The plextor drives really don't seem that expensive to me, considering how much use you get out of them.

 

[masteringhouse]

A CU is an uncorrectable error.


Pretty much, but remember that C2 errors by themselves will not cause a plant rejection. We won't ship any masters with C2s, but that's just to play it safe (and I can't recall the last time we cut a disc with C2s anyway). IME, C2's happen in bursts, primarily due to bad media.

Thanks for the correction B.

C2s are read errors and may be correctable on a re-read. Also interesting is that the number of C1s and C2s is dependent on how fast the CD-R is read. If the player encounters a C2 it will slow down and attempt to read again.

CUs are uncorrectable, and I would assume that any good plant will reject a CD-R with CUs.

Good links for more detailed info:

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=75573

http://www.plextor.com/english/support/faqs/How_To/HT00006.html

Like Brad I would trash any CD that had a single C2 if it was destined for the plant.

 

[Beck]

The problem is, Tim, that as time goes on, that truism becomes less and less true for two reasons.

First the number of quality burners and/or software that will actually go down to speeds that low is diminishing. I've seen systems that will only go down to 8x, for example.

Second, many of the higher speed drives these days actually perform better at slightly higher speeds than they do at their lowest speeds. Many MEs using common Plextor drives swear by 8x as being a sweet spot. I like the general rule of about 20% of the burner's max speed. But even both of those are not hard and fast rules, it varies by burner. I've said it before, I'll say it again, both of my VeloCD burners work best at higher speeds, as good at 48x as my Plextor is at 8x, and they did no better at 4x than they did at 48x. (It's a crying shame that TDK disco'd those drives so quickly; they were a undiscovered gem in my book. I still use my TDK external to this day with my laptop for location work.)

G.

Yeah, and one reason why my studio looks like a museum. One of my favorite PC CD writers won’t do 4X either, but that’s because it’s and old Yamaha 2X. Copies made on it are near perfect though.

I don’t see CD-R technology necessarily advancing as much as I see standards lowering, or at least the two meeting half way. The market chooses faster over better, so that’s where we go. For me correctable errors are still errors and I like to minimize the events per second a correction algorithm spends making something up.

I have a Fostex CR300 stand-alone for initial transfer from analog, so I’m not really troubled by some of the issues brought up in the thread.

I won’t argue that there aren’t CD writers that do a good job at higher speeds… but we’re dealing with some limiting factors – a physical disc with a laser that has an optimum “time on media” to accurately transfer the data.

And when we start talking about archiving and copies of copies at those lighting speeds then we really start seeing those errors adding up.

For the average Joe with his Lite-On burner and whatsamajigi soundcard, slower is usually better. And of course there are always exceptions that prove the rule… life would be no fun at all without them.

 

[bblackwood]

Yeah, and one reason why my studio looks like a museum. One of my favorite PC CD writers won’t do 4X either, but that’s because it’s and old Yamaha 2X. Copies made on it are near perfect though.

How do you test these?

The reason I ask is that in the tests we've done over the years, the older burners performed rather poorly with modern media as modern media is designed to be burned at higher speeds - 'over-burning' was quite common in the tests we've run (all the way back to the old Sony 900E)...

To be honest, in virtually every respect the masters you can cut today using Plextor drives with TY media surpass what we could cut 10 years ago with anything.

 

[psongman]

Again, thanks for many of the interesting replies. I have been searching and researching this topic and side events for the past week. I do see where buying the Plextor drive that everyone is mentioning would ease my mind. Since I started the thread, I have burned a lot more cd's and they all came out great and even made mp3's for soundclick, etc, which sound almost as good as the wavs by the way, another hmmm, a technology that has flourished in the past few years.

I did find out one interesting aspect that I am sure a few mature burners have figured out since they were once baby burners. Don't burn cd's after you have been on the computer for awhile, but reboot, or wait awhile and turn on the computer, turn off the AV programs and other unnecessary programs in the background. What happens in the real world, is you get busy doing other parts of the CD, some printing etc. and you jump to the CD burning part and you just zone out and forget to do these little adjustments. I have had the most success with these methods. So, what I am saying, is concentrate on one part of your cd-making process and stick to it, and do the other processes separately, maybe even on a different day for focus and finishing. Well, am going to open up the wallet, and get that Plextor and maybe a CD duplicator as I am going to need more copies for my next CD, so will have to invest. Gratitude noted, psongman