S.I.A.B vs. PC?

[fruitbat1uk]

Hey all

I'm just looking into finally buying some recording gear. Been a musician since childhood (Piano/Guitar/Drums/Sax + anything else I can get my hands on!) and I've always had a dream of setting up a home studio.
I know I'm well out of touch with the scene but I'm learning fast and boy, has it come a long way.
Thing is, I've been looking on ebay etc. at Tascam 788 Korg D12(00) or Fostex VF160EX but also reading a lot about PC recording. I don't want to do everything on a PC as I like the idea of having at least a small 'proper' desk doodad. (I.e. with real knobs, whistles and bells to prod and twiddle with!) But I do appreciate the power of PCs when using virtual gear. I want to record real and virtual instruments BTW.
I've also considered the Tascam 2488 but it's a bit heavy on price for what is really only a fun thing. I'm a bit gadget bonkers, though so....
Both my stepdaughters (and my four year old) are into music and there may be some of their friends garage bands etc. that I could enjoy making demo CDs for but beyond that it's just an adventure.
So...let me hear some stories, happy or sad on the PC/S.I.A.B debate and give me some ammo to baffle the wife with when the house is busting at the seams with yet more equipment!

Ta in advance

fruitbat

 

[Track Rat]

I must ask. What the hell is S.I.A.B?

 

[DonF]

Studio In A Box?

 

[fruitbat1uk]

Oops. Sorry - I didn't know how long the title could be and I'd seen S.I.A.B. on an ebay auction so that's the only reason I knew what it meant!

Actually, I wimped out a bit but I'll go for it now...What's DAW? I'm sure I'll work it out eventually but being lazy it would be nice if someone just told me.

Thanks for looking anyway.

fruitbat

 

[DonF]

Digital Audio Workstation

 

[fruitbat1uk]

Thanks - I thought it was Digital Audio something! Should have worked it out. D'OH!

Still looking around the web for thoughts on what to buy. It's like picking at a spot - you know if you carry on it will get worse but you just can't stop!

fruitbat

 

[DonF]

I got all the knob-twiddling and fader-pushing out of my system years ago, so I'm happy mixing "in the box" nowadays. Keeps the clutter down, too. But it sounds to me like you might be very happy with one of the mixer/recorder products. Unfortunately I don't have any experience with any of these (beyond looking at them a bit in Guitar Center!), so I can't help much. If you do decide to go the computer/software route, I could certainly offer some specific advice.

 

[fruitbat1uk]

Thanks for the reply. To be honest (and annoyingly, not that specific!) as I'm new to this side of the music game, any advice at all will be useful.

I haven't discounted the PC side at all. In fact I would love to have the power of the PC integrated with a desk - I just don't fancy using a mouse for all those virtual buttons!

I have to confess here that I have a VERY low boredom threshold and any forays I've made into the programming side of anything (computers, drum machines etc. ) have been very, very brief. I just simply don't have the patience. But I do love playing the instruments and the ability to record, punch in/out, repair etc. sounds way cool. My digital piano has a sequencer that is little short of useless as you have to record every track in one go with no mistakes....yeah, right!

I found a copy of cakewalk for a look but it was baffling and scarey but I'm willing to try again with a recommendation and now that I can see there is an enormous amount of support available.

Can the desks I am looking at be used to control PC virtual sliders etc. do you know?

I'm hoping somebody else who has already solved this dilemma will see this thread soon and point me in the right direction but I suppose I'll end up blowing shed-loads of cash only to find I've been suckered again. Having said that, I bought a Line 6 Flextone III with shortboard for 400 quid last month and I'm made up with it. Perfect for what I want, it's got me going on the guitar again (not my best instrument!) and more importantly, finally got my arse in gear to source some recording equipment.....mind you, when I look at the bank balance in a few months time I might feel differently about it!


fruitbat

 

[Kevin Deschwazi]

I had a SIAB for about 6 months and outgrew it within that time. I now use a PC and couldn't be happier. With most SIABS (at least the moderately priced ones) you have pretty much no room to upgrade in any department, you're tied to their pres, their effects, their inadequate editing features. You can get some pretty decent SIABS but the top of the range ones cost so much you might as well go the computer route.

If you want knobs and faders then you could look at one of these:

http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--BEHBCF2000

Or if your budget allows, one of these:

http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--MACCONTROLUNI

Seriously, I've never looked back but each to their own. Some people do prefer them.

EDIT: Sorry, if I'd realised you were in the UK I would've linked to the digital village pages for those MIDI controllers. I use Cubase SE software by the way and I've found it to be very intuitive.

 

[apl]

Using a computer has potential limited only by time and money. An SIAB has clear, well defined limits. That's why I use a PC.

 

[regebro]

Oops. Sorry - I didn't know how long the title could be and I'd seen S.I.A.B. on an ebay auction so that's the only reason I knew what it meant!

Well, I still don't...

Oh, wait...Studio In A Box! Never heard that before. Usually known as portas or standalone DAWs.

 

[tedluk]

S.I.A.B is a common designation for an all-in-one recording solution.

Fruit- Don't let all the negative comments totally dissuade you from an S.I.A.B. They DO have some advantages. In fact, all the things cited as drawbacks are precisely what make them superior for some people. Now, before I get 20 responses telling me I don't know what I'm talking about, I can tell you that I use both a DAW and a S.I.A.B. Best of both worlds!

Depending on how you work, how serious you want to become and how much time you're willing to invest in configuring, maintaining and learning to use a computer, the dedicated OS (Operating System) and hardware of a S.I.A.B can be very practical.

It's true that many of these units are not significantly upgradable and many suffer from low quality pres and other limitations (limited number of simultaneous recording tracks, limited I/O options, etc.)

But building a DAW is no walk in the park either. You can't simply buy a computer at Best Buy, throw a couple of programs on it and go to town. You need a fast computer, big HDD, lots of memory, the knowledge of how to tweak the OS, a decent audio card, mic pres and possibly a mixer. You can, of course, purchase a dedicated DAW, at a premium, and all of this work will be done for you. Ideally, this computer would be used exclusively for music. In essence, you're BUILDING a S.I.A.B. from the ground up and with a generic OS. The advantage? It's upgradable. What people neglect to point out is that when you DO upgrade you essentially wind up building another new unit. If you get a new MOBO, you'll need a new processor, you'll more than likely need new memory, you might be able to use the soundcard and video card, but what you'll probably do is start over, maybe move the hard drive into a new box and make the old computer into your Internet machine or your kids school computer or some such. Nothing wrong with that, of course. But nobody ever seems to honestly, maybe they're in denial, look at just how much money they pour into computer systems.

Depending on your budget, and if you're seriously considering a S.I.A.B., I would suggest you look at the Akai DPS24. It is probably the best box on the market right now. Used, they sell for around $2000.00, new (if you can find one) they are around $2800.00. They offer 24 tracks at 96k, 12 EXCELLENT mic pres, the ability to bypass them on 4 channels if you want, 24 inputs, decent effects, very good editing, the ability to interface directly to your DAW through USB and ADAT, full automation, add-on cards that allow it to do SMPTE, 16 additional channels of ADAT and SCSI, I could go on and on. It simply blows the other S.I.A.Bs out of the water and I think it will remain viable for a number of years.

Again, I'm not at all opposed to the DAW paradigm. I have one and use it. I think having both and being able to move between them is a great solution. I just think most people don't give the S.I.A.B. fair consideration. Perhaps because the lower end boxes are severely limited. But it's not fair to compare a $400.00 S.I.A.B. to a $2000.00 computer. When you begin to compare systems with similar capabilities, the S.I.A.B. might start looking better.

So, bottom line? A DAW is can be an extremely powerful, open-ended system, but it's not without its problems. A S.I.A.B. has limitations, but, most of them, do exactly what they're supposed to do with a dedicated OS and hardware, optimized for recording music.

Don't hate me for the long post.

Ted

 

[Rokket]

I use a combination of both: I record into a Fostex Mr-8 and transfer the tracks to pc via usb....

It gives me more track flexability and the ease of SIAB portability....

 

[Kevin Deschwazi]

Good post Tedluk, you've added a good balance to the thread. As I said there are some good looking SIABS out there and everyone has their own way of doing things.

I have to say I've never had any problems with my DAW though and the setup needed was minimal (even for a luddite such as myself). I think some of the problems you've described would come from people having insufficient RAM, HDD capacity CPU power to start with. Not to mention using soundcards not designed for recording audio. Of course if you go the DAW route then you're going to need a machine (and an interface) which is up to the job.

I think it will be a long time before I need to upgrade any of it.

 

[Marcellovalerio]

Cant one buy an external pre-amp and send it throught the preamp on the multitrack? Are you then sacrificing quality? I do this then i send it to my computer with USB. If I had a good enough laptop/PC i would probly of gone the DAW way.

What about Analog to Digital converters? Any difference between similar priced soundcards and multitrackers?

 

[regebro]

Most multitracks have line inputs, so you don't have to send the signal through the preamps.

 

[Kevin Deschwazi]

Cant one buy an external pre-amp and send it throught the preamp on the multitrack? Are you then sacrificing quality? I do this then i send it to my computer with USB. If I had a good enough laptop/PC i would probly of gone the DAW way.

What about Analog to Digital converters? Any difference between similar priced soundcards and multitrackers?

Try taking the external pre (which I assume is better quality) out of the chain and see if it makes any difference to your recorded sound. I suspect it won't. You're recording chain is only as good as it's weakest link.

As regebro says if you have line ins use those with the better pre.

As for the converters I would suspect that those in your SIAB aren't much better or worse than those in your average prosumer recording soundcard. When I went from SIAB to DAW (using an M-Audio card) I didn't notice any difference in this respect. I understand that worthwhile upgrades in A/D conversion cost lots of money.

 

[tedluk]

Good post Tedluk, you've added a good balance to the thread. As I said there are some good looking SIABS out there and everyone has their own way of doing things.

I have to say I've never had any problems with my DAW though and the setup needed was minimal (even for a luddite such as myself). I think some of the problems you've described would come from people having insufficient RAM, HDD capacity CPU power to start with. Not to mention using soundcards not designed for recording audio. Of course if you go the DAW route then you're going to need a machine (and an interface) which is up to the job.

I think it will be a long time before I need to upgrade any of it.

I would contend that you might be the exception, Kevin. One only needs to take a look at the computer and soundcard forum here or on any of the major software applications web sites to find people having countless difficulties configuring and using their DAWs. I do think this situation has improved greatly over the last few years. The PC is a mature technology. A lot of the instability was caused due to nearly constant changes in the core technologies (i.e. processor architecture, motherboard chip set incompatibilities, IRQ conflicts, etc.) Microsoft has finally delivered a more stable OS (XP) and many of the issues seem to have finally sorted themselves out. Still, I don't think anyone can dispute (though I'm sure someone will!) that the OS on a S.I.A.B. is probably more stable than a PC.

Ted

 

[fruitbat1uk]

Many thanks for the replies everyone.

I'm still looking on the net for equipment and specs/review etc. I never got the 'knobs and twiddlers' when I was younger so I will definetely be going for something like that just to (partially) fulfil a childhood daydream! The ability to control PC based mixer with the box sounds ideal. I am quite ok with PCs but, as I posted before, I don't have the best of attention spans when things start getting long winded in the programming department so the more 'live' feel of a desk, small though it will be, is attractive.

I'm very encouraged by the level of interest and help that is available here to newbies like myself. I've done quite a lot of new things in my life and found that there are many, many folk who forget that we all had top learn evry single thing we do. We were not born doing anything that we could be proud of!

When I learned to skydive in particular there were (and still are) some total pricks who talked like they were skygods after one tandem. It's good to see that there are lots of people on here willing to explain the basics even though they are obviously way ahead of me.

Cheers

fruitbat