Room mic vs applying a Room reverb

  • Thread starter Thread starter pure.fusion
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Hahaha I know waveforms represent audio :D Thanks Jimmy! I will try this next time.
 
I can see sliding a track to adjust the phase/timing when using multiple mics at *slightly* different distances, or a mic & DI....
...but IMHO...if you are setting up a room mic, then you kinda defeat the purpose if you align it with the close mic track.
The room mic IS about the delay and the distance and the ambiance. If you push it up to be in sync with the close mic, you lose all that flavor.

Also...at the greater distances used for a room mic, there are not going to be too many phase cancellation issues by leaving the tracks as they are "apart, rather then aligning them exactly together.
 
miroslav said:
I can see sliding a track to adjust the phase/timing when using multiple mics at *slightly* different distances, or a mic & DI....
...but IMHO...if you are setting up a room mic, then you kinda defeat the purpose if you align it with the close mic track.
The room mic IS about the delay and the distance and the ambiance. If you push it up to be in sync with the close mic, you lose all that flavor.

Also...at the greater distances used for a room mic, there are not going to be too many phase cancellation issues by leaving the tracks as they are "apart, rather then aligning them exactly together.
Click to expand...

Back to my pseudo joke...'Get a room'.

In a small space, IME, there is not much benefit of a mic further away to get a room sound. Though cool things can happen by using two mics, at alternate placements from the source, then aligning in DAW. And like I said, not always, and is probably not the best starting point.

Get a room dammit! :)
 
jimmys69 said:
...cool things can happen by using two mics, at alternate placements from the source, then aligning in DAW. And like I said, not always, and is probably not the best starting point.
Click to expand...

Yeah...that's a different thing.
I was just talking about when using room mics...for the sake of the ambience.
 
FM you could ..... oh never mind. I forgot that the minister won't let you purchase a ribbon microphone.
Though that would give you the capture of the amp side and the room side from the microphone.
 
moresound said:
FM you could ..... oh never mind. I forgot that the minister won't let you purchase a ribbon microphone.
Though that would give you the capture of the amp side and the room side from the microphone.
Click to expand...

Yup...that's been my recipe for guitar tracks for the last 2-3 year now.
I put my Fat Head ribbon about 12" away from the grill...the back picks up the room. Sometimes I don't want the room so I drop a "tent" over the whole rig.
 
miroslav said:
I can see sliding a track to adjust the phase/timing when using multiple mics at *slightly* different distances, or a mic & DI....
...but IMHO...if you are setting up a room mic, then you kinda defeat the purpose if you align it with the close mic track.
The room mic IS about the delay and the distance and the ambiance. If you push it up to be in sync with the close mic, you lose all that flavor.

Also...at the greater distances used for a room mic, there are not going to be too many phase cancellation issues by leaving the tracks as they are "apart, rather then aligning them exactly together.
Click to expand...

Actually, not so much.

Think about a choir in a lovely sounding cathedral. The lovely, reverberant effect isn't because you have one ear right next to the choir and the other 100 feet away. Both your ears are near as dammit the same distance and all the "room" is from reflections off the walls, ceiling, pillars, etc. that gives you the classic cathedral sound.

Similar applies to the technique of using a close mic on a guitar amp and another one farther away. The close mic is to get all the clean, dry detail that you want, the more distant mic is there to record the natural reverberance of the room. You're not trying to simulate reverb by having the distant mic x milliseconds farther away than the near mic. You just want a pleasing mix of clean/close and some "air" from the room.

However, working this way can introduce phase differences that can have unfortunate effects on the sound. Sliding a track to correct (or at least control) these phase issues. Even exactly in sync, the distant mic will still be picking up more room reverberance which you mix with the close up "clean" sound in whatever proportion gives you the effect you want.

Of course, all this pre-supposes that the room itself sounds nice. In any typical domestic setting with parallel walls and parallel floor and ceiling, unless you're incredibly lucky it'll just sound boxy making you better off with electronic reverb effects.

....at least in my opinion!
 
Bobbsy said:
You're not trying to simulate reverb by having the distant mic x milliseconds farther away than the near mic. You just want a pleasing mix of clean/close and some "air" from the room.
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I've tried that...I usually don't like it because you mess with the timing difference between the two mic which IMO is the whole point of a room/distant mic...but YMMV.
If I want some "air"...I just use one mic and move it away from the source, but if I put up a distant mic, I leave that track as-is.
There is a difference in the sound, leaving the distant mic as-is VS aligning everything in the same spot, but again...you go with what you prefer.
I also think you can even introduce phase issues when you try align the two mics, because the close and distant mic sound waves are not the same. Yeah, you can slide it around until it sound "best"...but there is no real perfect spot...and then it depends how far apart the mics were.
 
miroslav said:
Yup...that's been my recipe for guitar tracks for the last 2-3 year now.
I put my Fat Head ribbon about 12" away from the grill...the back picks up the room. Sometimes I don't want the room so I drop a "tent" over the whole rig.
Click to expand...

Capital idea my good man!
 
Don't need to think of it as alignment at all. Rather simply changing the timing to see if it makes it more complementary.

pure.fusion said:
...Turns out that the room that the iso box sits in, which is concrete and brick room filled with a lot of random junk, sounds good. It sounds good to my ear when I'm in there playing and I've heard it sound good recorded when I did a close-mic/room-mic comparison between my treated room and my junk room. Junk room was lively.

The natural scattered sound reflections in the junk room sound like they're doing a nice thing. So I guess it looks like my ugly eq is either the mic eq, or the room eq ..
Click to expand...
Still just curious, and not knowing, perchance throw in the possibility that if said walls and stuff's reflections are within the Haas zone..?

Again, maybe delay rather than align so that they aren't? ;)
 
wallystripes said:
Hey moresound, what is the ribbon mic you use?
Click to expand...

I have several different brands and models but if your interested in a budget entry level ribbon that will service a home studio - check out the MXL R144 about $80. new and usually about half that used on ebay.
 
It is a re-badged Chinese ribbon - it's the same as the Nady.

Read THIS to know the differences between all of them.

For the money I would go for a used MXL R144.
 
Not so much better just less expensive for the same type of microphone.
 
Two things I've noticed: 1) I use a Fat Head I (with stock transformers) as a room/distant mic for acoustics and electric guitar...I haven't tried them on drums yet. But, I like it. It's dark and roomy to begin with, so it really compliments brighter close mics. 2) room mics pick up the room (obviously), but even in a bad room, they pick up the parts of the instrument that take some distance to be realized. So I think there is some good in using a room mic even in not great rooms. Now, if the room is awful, that will come through, and if the room isn't great I wouldn't use room mics on too many tracks because stacking it will make the whole song suck.
 
Ok, MXL R441 will probably be on my list. Any other decent reibbn mic for around $150?
 
Yes, I checked the article, it was very helpful. So basically their all the same mic right? (well, 2 different kinds of mic) But is there any entry level mic that doesnt follow in those 2 categories?
 
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