Researching a set-up, suggestions for "harder" sounds?

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emmay

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Hello, it is wonderful to browse this forum and see the level of experience here. :cool: I just joined on 9/6/08 because I'm looking for the first time at synths/workstations, and am overwhelmed by what i am finding. I'm trying to sort it all out, and one thing that's impeding me is that all the demo vids have maybe 6 seconds of music i like, and a whole lotta sounds i have no interest in.

I envision creating music that's a blend of Industrial with Goth, Dance / Techno, and Experimental. I understand that some of these machines, like the Fantom G and the Korg M3, can modify the more basic sounds into monster versions, but i'd like to get a machine that already starts out with more of what i want and less of what i don't want... Any suggestions???

I'm concerned about the whole memory (RAM, ROM, ???) issue, as well -- how do i know how much is enough?? An article i read said one of the main flaws with the M3 was that Korg kind of hamstrung it with a 312 M (approx) max. If i went with the M3, then i believe i'd want the Radias Expansion Option, but have no idea what effect that would have on the memory limitations.

My Dell computer is 6 - 7 yrs old and was never contemplated or planned to handle music chores, so i'm looking for a 'complete' workstation, meaning i want to do everything from composing, sampling, recording, editing, mixing, and outputting a midi, .wav, or .mp3 with the ONE machine. If this isn't possible, what would a computer have to have, hardware-wise, to function as the missing piece, and what would that function be?

I dicked around with a Roland Fantom G at a store Saturday, and compared to the Stephen Kay Korg training vids for the M3, i'd say the Roland seemed like it would be a bit harder to use. It also seemed partially unresponsive in several of the voices (in terms of key press). So now i'm even more confused.... since that was by no means an inexpensive machine!

My budget is "as little as possible" :D, up to maybe $2,800. -- At least i am HOPING not to spend more than that.... :eek: I don't need 88 keys. If i have to tweak my computer, also, then add maybe $350 more for that. I made the 'mistake' of finding the Kurzweil K2600 today, but really, that WILL HAVE TO wait!! LOL (I really like their non-obsolescence philosophy, and the monstrous amount of memory you can upgrade to!) If i really really like doing this and produce some stuff that is good in my eyes, then maybe... I've never tried this, though. (I had an 88 key Roland FP3 in the past, but no comparison.)

I've been a huge music consumer all my life, but lately my MySpace friends like The Great Randola, evol, Matt Crane (a/k/a AMOK), Black Sheep Screaming, and others have been inspiring me to think that "i can do it, too."

K, i'll stop rambling now.... ;)

Any and all help will be appreciated!!!!! thank you thank you thank you!

-emmay
 
Vaguely possible. See other clarifications, also.

Live playing is a long-shot and would be at least a year in future. Mostly, I want to be a solo artist with a MySpace Music page, and for the short-term i'm sure this will be an exploration for my own enjoyment. :D

That said, i am the type of person that balances my options when looking to buy a new piece of equipment, but i am weighted towards 1) bang for my buck. 2) very high quality, and 3) the FEWEST POSSIBLE limitations and hassles of use. I don't like running into a lot of limitations and have a fairly low tolerance for frustration unless i am progressing at least at the same rate as my frustrations. :D

To further clarify my intended music style. are you familiar with Psyclon Nine or C-lekktor? Also, Project Pitchfork, VNV, NIN, etc etc, though hoping greatly to sound like MYSELF when all is said and done.

Regarding the keyboard, i related to this statement in a 2004 SOS article on the Triton Extreme:

"...t was my good fortune to have access to the 88-note weighted piano-action version of the Extreme for much of this review. Generally speaking, it's an excellent keyboard action, offering a good halfway house that provides something like the feel of a genuine acoustic piano without being too hard to play if you spend the rest of your time with plastic-action synths.

I perhaps idiotically passed up a chance this afternoon to grab a Triton Extreme 88, one smoke-free owner, with case for somewhere over $1524. I didn't bid past $1499 because the price was approaching a 61-key M3 which i realize is not apples-to-apples, but it was an expenditure i was not prepared to make within the 38 minute window that remained....

so, a few more insights into me.... feel free to hone further. :cool:

thank you!
 
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since you don't need 88 keys

Kurzweil released the K2661 machine, and it's another $500 option to add the sampling unit to it. Musician's Friend I think still has it for sale at a very excellent price. $1600 on their site. Call up and negotiate an even better deal. There are 2 other ROM options, which I would definitely buy. So that costs more, too.

Sweetwater may or may not have it to sell. I don't see it listed on their site. But Sweetwater has the best tech and support group in the world, next to the manufacturer themselves.

BUT, it may not have the type of presets you are interested in. I could almost guarantee it. That's a shame, too.

There's a new Kurzweil PC3 with way better sounds and far more horsepower, and better effects power than the K-series, but the PC3 is not a sampler, and has no RAM - which means you cannot import sound samples. As soon as they add these features, it will be a K3000, but I'm in dreamland now.

I understand the desire to have great sounds loaded on the machine right out of the box. I don't know whose synth you'll love for that.

To be honest, great presets make your purchase enjoyable. And at the same time, you have to love the design and feel comfortable manipulating things because it won't be long before you need to create or modify a sound to your own liking. The preset won't work, or it needs something... so now you're up against the real reasons why you look at the interface and engineering that goes into a machine.

From experience at watching myriads of keyboard players on stage, I'm always baffled at how they don't know how to program their expensive gear. They do cover band songs, and grab (in their mind) the closest sounding patch to emulate that signature sound in the cover song. And it is not even in the ball park most of the time.

It takes a very special type of person to know how to create sounds, and to emulate sounds. You have to have a trained ear, knowledge of music, and a very good grasp of algebra/logic. Purchase a couple books on learning synthesis. They usually do a great job of explaining frequencies, harmonics, LFO, Envelopes, etc.

All things considered, in my mind, you need a digital workstation with sampling (for genunine, realistic sounds), and then an analog machine because it's approach and sound is totally different, and much needed. I don't think you could pull off a convincing rendition of Winter's "Frankenstein" on a digital workstation.

You want to create industrial sounds (which I hate, by the way). Check out Jordan Rudess Youtube videos. He has demos on just about every machine made. He's into that ambiance, dark and vague stuff. He calls it "heavy".
 
Funny you mention Rudess...

LOL, Rudess is the main reason i was up till 5:00 sunday morning!! I found a boatload of his YouTube vids and watched them (even the Roland one :p), and in the process have gotten that gleam in my eye about the Oasys [which at first i refused to consider due to cost]. BAD Mistake, LOL. :D [BTW, he is YARDS away from any definition i have of "heavy."] [So sorry to hear that you do not like Industrial! It is an acquired taste, to a degree. I didn't like it too much in the 80s, when i was more straight metal and hair bands.]

Anyway, you said: "...you have to love the design and feel comfortable manipulating things because it won't be long before you need to create or modify a sound to your own liking. The preset won't work, or it needs something... so now you're up against the real reasons why you look at the interface and engineering that goes into a machine." I totally agree with this concept, which is why i'm now thinking M3, Oasys, or Kurzweil.

However, i am still largely uneducated in this realm, so i don't know what you mean by interface -- what to look at, what the choices are, and the ramifications of those choices. Can you point me somewhere to learn, or drop some key phrases (elements) i can research??


I'm already finding the Oasys advertised around $4700-5900. One feature that i especially love about the Oasys is the built in 40G hard drive and cd/rw drive, and i'm actually thinking 88 key now so i can get some true piano feel.

I guess I mainly want whatever-i-buy to be complete, meaning i won't need to purchase more stuff for a while, since this will put a big, BIG dent in my cash! :(


Anybody else have some ideas??? Some things i should be considering? Some pitfalls that sank a decision you invested in?
 
nice budget!

Awesome. Not too many people approach the problem like yourself. You remind me of me.

Get your sights on the thing that is best, makes your heart pound with excitement, you can't wait to hang up from the girlfriend because your synth is waiting for you! lol

Ok. Rudess, apparently, loves his Oasys. I played one a couple of times for a couple hours each time, and I really did not see what the excitement was about. I think the thing that Korg boasts regarding it, is that I believe it has 2 or 3 other forms of synthesis in it - like PPG, or wave modeling? I don't know. I did not study the manual or brochure.

I do know that I was not impressed with the presets, which Korg uses to show off its baby. For example, the B3 organ sounds still do not compare to my Kurzweil B3 organ sounds from 1999, and the new Kurzweil PC3, I am told, has taken the sound and audio quality up a couple notches further. The organ sounds alone, on the Oasys, sound inferior, kid-like.

Then I spent a fair amount of time listening to the guitar patches on the Oasys. Some of them were ok. I still did not think they compared.

The piano sounds were hard to judge, because at Guitar Center, they have their keyboards setup through the reference monitors - you know, those things you used to see connected to a boom box. lol There's no substitute for a $3,000 keyboard PA system. Piano sounds are extremely controversial, although they should not be. But there are some forums on here you should search that discuss it. Bottom line - a great keyboard sound does not necessarily have to be a big and large sample size. It has much to do with the programmer and getting evenness across the keyboard. I still LOVE my small 16MB size Grand Piano sound from Sweetwater, even more than their new 64MB Steinway. Other sample companies boast of 1GB samples, which means little, in my trained opinion.

The other big "rave" about the Oasys, to me, is really lame. It has a built-in CD burner. Do you know what those cost??? $20 bucks. And I know you said you want to do everything on one unit, but really, like many others have written on this site... use a good computer for your production and edits. And what does a 40GB hard drive cost? $50 bucks? These are not reasons to buy a synth. But if a synth does not have a hard drive, or the capability, then that would be a minus.

Although, having a USB 2.0 flash drive with 64GB on it, would be a satisfactory alternative to a hard drive whirling around inside your synth.

As an aside - and as a computer geek, it does not make sense to me that these manufacturers, Kurzweil, Roland, Korg, etc... don't put the latest and greatest, and very inexpensive, computer hardware on their machines. USB 2.0 should be standard. Not SCSI interfaces anymore. And/or Firewire 800.

Memory is cheap!!!! There should be at least 1GB of RAM on these expensive units. That would allow you to have 100'000s of patches and setups.

- - - - - - - - Ok, enough of that.

Getting an 88-key, is smart. You will never regret it. You may need to call a friend to move it around, but it is still worth it. Well, I should say, you will if your are not prejudiced against any notes. Personally, I play on every inch of the keyboard. I am always lost on a 76, or worse, 61 keys. A lot of guys really don't play on the ends of their 88 keyboards. Whatever. ???

Get a 61 key when you add your 2nd analog synth - i.e. Prophet 8.

- - - - - - - - -

EFFECTS!!!!

Now, the bad news regarding Kurzweil. As much as its sound is superior, they have been real slow at releasing new workstations. The K2600XS has a real drawback, regarding KDFX. Mind you, I have the same thing on my older K2500XS, but you'll run out of Effects for all your sounds that you want to play simultaneously, FAST. This will not be a big issue if you are doing production at home (not playing live at a bar). Because then, you can record each track perfectly and overdub forever. So you may not need simultaneous use of several effects, if you are doing production at home, for Myspace. But, it becomes an issue for live play, and then, only if you are attempting to be a one-man band. Typically, you will not use more than two or three sounds at the same time when playing with a band. So, even here, I still think I would recommend the Kurzweil K2600XS or K2661S.

Having lots of simultaneous effects, Korg probably beats the Kurzweil out of the water nowadays on this point.

Not true of the Kurzweil PC3X, but that, like I said already, is not a sampler, nor a workstation. Unfortunately.

Don't overlook this. The Effects, nowadays, play a huge role in your entire sound, and so you want to be able to create a Setup (or combo, or performance) of many different sounds all at the same time, and have those sounds retain their original effects design.

So you have a Setup with a bass on the lower part of your keyboard using Compression, and a guitar in the middle of your keyboard using distortion, and some sounds effects mapped out at the top end of the keyboard notes using phase, flange, laser reverb, and a flute sound using reverb, and something else using delay, etc.

Make sure you don't run out. This is a big consideration. I'm sad that Kurzweil is behind the times on this one, even though their algorithms, and their engineering layout is stellar and leaves others in the dust. The PC3 is way ahead of everybody else in the market, on this issue.

- - - - - - - -

I read a recent review on Rolands V-synth GT. Sounds like an awesome piece of gear.
 
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so was i a fool..?

So what do you think about the Triton Extreme 88 i passed up yesterday for, who knows - 1600-1700 ?? Knowing what the current offerings are from the various manufacturers, what is your opinion about buying an Extreme today? It seems like a really excellent machine (ONLY the Triton Extreme), and since i'm eyeballing other Korgs, learning its O/S (is that fair to call it?) will not be wasted effort, if you know what i mean. Plus, after finding the Roland Fantom G system a bit too complicated to learn easily, i am wondering if the slightly less complex Extreme system would be a good starting place, anyway??

I'm thinking an Extreme 76, since i found i didn't like the entire register of the keyboard and this particular instrument has semi-wtd keys in this size, which is probably a good touch for me. I like the footprint of the 61s, but i have concerns about lopping off that much of the keyboard! It's sad because i have a line on an Extreme 61 for around $850 and am tempted to go for it as a starting point.... because truly i do not want to spend a bunch of money at this exact minute. I go back and forth. :o Aaargghh, decisions decisions!!

I have a bit of a bias against Roland; to loosely quote some review i read, 'Roland has always been the Casio of prof. [keyboards], and is overpriced'. As i mentioned, i wasn't impressed with the responsiveness of the G --i.e., key press in many voices did not = sound 1:1. Not sure why... I also was never really satisfied with my FP3. That said, the Roland sales video for the V-Synth GT (approx $2995 locally) is awesome and the instrument is absolutely gorgeous (preferring all things to be black, as i do ;).)

In defense of Oasys preloads, Rudess did go into something that addresses what you said in one vid i saw, and seemed to imply that many of them are deliberately a little thin (to use a word), assuming an Oasys player will mostly be layering them. He showed a few instances in Rudress Oasys Part 2 where, in just a couple seconds, he layered 2 - 4 different instruments (one included "air") that he then played together on the keyboard. Seems like an infinite amount of sounds, then, and not necessarily dependent on the preloads, but i probably should NOT step directly from ignorance and no experience to an Oasys, eh?? :D

All your points are well-taken regarding cd burners, hard drives, and memory. Yes, at these prices, the f'n manufacturers SHOULD be including these VERY BASIC and necessary items - at least MEMORY!! C'mon ppl! :mad:

And so, interface -- you meant whether SCSII, USB, FireWire, etc??

It is obvious i am going to need further work on my computer. I have 2 HDs totalling around 160 G, i have an Audigy 4 sound card, and a CD-DVD-RW drive, all upgrades or replacements made so far to this 1.9 GhZ machine with around 768 M(forget number) of RAM. The motherboard is old, though, and it has gotten a lot slower over time -- or i just have more shit on it now! :D I do not have 2.0 USB, either.

Enjoying our chat. Leaving for work now.

Anyone else is free to chime in!!
 
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I get pretty hard sounds but didn't have to pay out big money for them. My signature sound is made with a $76 Casio synth and a homemade distortion pedal that may have cost me $35 to build.
Frankly, getting hard sounds is not a function of money but more a product of inventiveness. Best thing to do is discard all the formulaic notions on synth sound programming you find because most are for people who want to make nice pretty traditional music.
One hint I'll give you is, lay off the filter cutoff control unless you wanna instantly sound techno.
Go listen to some stuff here... http://www.somnium7.com

Voice of Madness is a good place to start. Plenty of hard synths. If you can come up with specific questions on the sounds there I'll be happy to provide insights into how I came up with them.

And never scoff at Casio, please. Back when they made professional instruments there wasn't anything else on the market with the features and in some cases still isn't.
 
emmay said:
I perhaps idiotically passed up a chance this afternoon to grab a Triton Extreme 88, one smoke-free owner, with case for somewhere over $1524. I didn't bid past $1499 because the price was approaching a 61-key M3 which i realize is not apples-to-apples, but it was an expenditure i was not prepared to make within the 38 minute window that remained....

so, a few more insights into me.... feel free to hone further. :cool:

thank you!
Click to expand...

Have you thought any about just going with a software setup? I actually own a motif rack es and a korg triton studio... which are gathering dust... thanks to Reason 4. I like the work flow and the ability to be able to rewire the instruments into my protools le setup. There i do vocals and mix and mastering. If you go this way you are only spending 399.99 and then there are ALL the sound libraries available. Any keyboard you can imagine you can get a library for just about. The only hardware you need is a midi keyboard and you can use any old midi based keyboard or controller for that... and not have to spend tons of money on a keyboard that after a year... you will grow tired of the sounds... and want to move into a new one...

Also you would have alot of extra cash left over to build a nice quad core pc... with 1tb hard drive... :o)

just my 2 pennies....

Demi
 
For weird/hard/whatever kind of tones you want you can't beat a Moog Voyager and a few Moogerfoogers.
 
Thank you, everyone!!

I appreciate the responses. I learn something from everybody, and there are so many roads into Rome. :)

I did finally purchase a KORG M3-88 and i love it. Some considerations:

There seem to be no end to the settings and manipulations that can be made. Even the "sweet and innocent" things will eventually be corrupted by me. HAHAHAHAhhahahahaha :D

The Stephen Kay videos i watched several times made me acquire an intimacy with the instrument, and a mental comfort level with moving around in it. I hope KORG paid him a lot for those demos, LOL. ;)

I decided i wanted "real" weighted piano keys, and ultimately was 'afraid' of not getting 88 keys because i also want to become a more proficient player as well as composer.

I like the KORG reputation (my sister-in-law has had KORG equipment for years, as well), and that the M3 is made in Japan, NOT CHINA!! I do my best to avoid China-made electronics. Not saying the competition is made in China, i don't know where the others are made, but had the M3 been made in China, it would have been a deal-killer.

Anyway, eventually i will also be getting a dedicated computer music setup, probably a laptop so i can keep it with the keyboard since there's no room in my computer room for the M3-88. So, thanks for the software/DAW-oriented suggestions, hints, and advice -- it will come in handy.

Best wishes to you all,
emmay
 
I believe you made a fine choice Emmay. If I had to select a modern piece of gear as my main instrument for the kind of music I do I most likely have selected the M3 myself. It has the right combo of features and accessibility. More specifically the sampling and sample editing facilities are very deep and the synth engines give alot of control. Next the onboard Midi sequencing makes it a handy stage machine which should negate the need for a laptop on stage. Me no like laptop on stage :rolleyes:

Additionally, there is some level of expandability. A good array of storage options plus management software.

Supposedly, the M3 is compatible with all Akai sample formats too. If this is true perhaps I can help you out with some of my samples from my Akai S6000.

On the downside the machine is very deep. Learning curve is astronomical I would imagine. Take it one step at a time. Learn the Sequencer. Once you're good with that move on to the synth engines. Then the Sampling. Etc. etc.
If you try to grasp it all at once it may become too confusing.

Have fun!
 
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