Recording Studio Wiring HELP! What a confusing mess

[flyingace]

HELP! I have this diagram trying to start "road mapping" the wiring of my studio. I have the equipment I have listed. I only have 4 patch bays, do I need more? Am I even getting it right with how they work??

Patchbays:
Pro Co 48 (X2): Unbalanced. Each point is configurable via an easy sliding switch (no annoying jumpers) to Open, Full Normal, Half Normal, and Parallel.
Tascam PB-32P (half normalled, unbalanced)
Tascam PB-32B (half normalled, balanced)

My console is the Tascam M-520 (20 channels, shown in diagrams what is available) Compressor, Mic Pre, BBE, EQ are all stereo or 2ch models. LiveTrack L20 has "20 channels" but really only 16 inputs that are usable. I may need to upgrade to a dedicated 16 Channel Rack Mount Interface to connect to my iMac using Logic Pro X.

This is a one person/one room project studio. There will be no other room tracking, and unlikely I'll be needing to run more than a few mics and keys/DI bass/DI guitar (helix) at a time.

Ugh. This is really hard! Thanks for anyone who will jump in and try to help! I didn't connect all the patchbay lines yet.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

First of all, don't run your XLRs through a patch bay. I don't think there's much value in that, and it risks shorting phantom power.

Get rid of the sonic maximizer.

I would wire the direct out of the mixer to patch bay channels normalled to the inputs of the MS-16, and outputs of the MS-16 to patch bay channels normalled to mixer tape inputs. That way there would be no need for any front panel patch cables for a normal setup, but you could alter that routing (including doing mults) as needed. Then you could patch (either the mixer direct outs or the MS-16 tape outs) to get into the L20 or a 16-input interface.

Same with inserts, normal them so they route the sends back to the returns without need of any patch cables on the front.

I'd probably manually patch the XLR for the mic pre, but keep its output on the patch bay so it could be routed to a mixer line input (or insert return).

 

[flyingace]

First of all, don't run your XLRs through a patch bay. I don't think there's much value in that, and it risks shorting phantom power.

Get rid of the sonic maximizer.

I would wire the direct out of the mixer to patch bay channels normalled to the inputs of the MS-16, and outputs of the MS-16 to patch bay channels normalled to mixer tape inputs. That way there would be no need for any front panel patch cables for a normal setup, but you could alter that routing (including doing mults) as needed. Then you could patch (either the mixer direct outs or the MS-16 tape outs) to get into the L20 or a 16-input interface.

Same with inserts, normal them so they route the sends back to the returns without need of any patch cables on the front.

I'd probably manually patch the XLR for the mic pre, but keep its output on the patch bay so it could be routed to a mixer line input (or insert return).

Wow, thanks Boulder! That is a lot to digest for me, the deeper I go down this road, the more I realize I don't know or understand.
Some of that makes sense immediately but before I hassle you or anyone with questions, I'm going to study what you have said and see if I can understand it on my own first.
Thanks!

 

[Farview]

You are making it a little more complicated than it needs to be.
First, the XLR wall box doesn't need to go to the patchbay, it can connect directly to the inputs of the console. You can just select the channel on the console by plugging in to the appropriate xlr on the wall plate.

If you get an interface and use Logic Pro X, you can simply plug the 8 sub outputs from the Tascam to the first 8 channels on the interface and plug the preamps into the next 4 channels of the interface and route the signals in Logic.

You could also route the sub outputs of the Tascam and the outputs of the preamps to the balanced patchbay, half normalled to the inputs on the interface. That would give you a way to patch the outboard gear into the signal chain. However, the graphic EQ is pointless in a recording context and the BBE is a live thing from the mid 1990's.

I understand the impulse to want to find a way to hook up everything and be ready for any eventuality but, you will find yourself doing the same 3 or 4 things all the time and the rest of the functionality will go unused.

 

[flyingace]

You are making it a little more complicated than it needs to be.
First, the XLR wall box doesn't need to go to the patchbay, it can connect directly to the inputs of the console. You can just select the channel on the console by plugging in to the appropriate xlr on the wall plate.

If you get an interface and use Logic Pro X, you can simply plug the 8 sub outputs from the Tascam to the first 8 channels on the interface and plug the preamps into the next 4 channels of the interface and route the signals in Logic.

You could also route the sub outputs of the Tascam and the outputs of the preamps to the balanced patchbay, half normalled to the inputs on the interface. That would give you a way to patch the outboard gear into the signal chain. However, the graphic EQ is pointless in a recording context and the BBE is a live thing from the mid 1990's.

I understand the impulse to want to find a way to hook up everything and be ready for any eventuality but, you will find yourself doing the same 3 or 4 things all the time and the rest of the functionality will go unused.

Thanks Farview, got the BBE and Graphic EQs for free, but was intending to use them when mixing down/mastering to 2 trk 1/4" reel to reel (Tascam 32-2B).
I'm doing an all analog workflow wanting to use the console - tascam MS-16 record - mix to cassette, CDR or 2 trk 1/4". I can then at any time dump the 16 tracks of the tape to Logic. That's my intended flow... not sure if that matters to what you just said. This is just a fun project studio with analog in mind. not planning to charge professionally. If I want to record more pro, I'll likely just do that with Logic, but this was a fun experiment.
PLUS, I got all this vintage mint equipment for practically nothing.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

For the advice I gave, I am assuming that the MS-16 will get used for tracking and then the audio will be dumped to digital.

Here's my setup (at my friend's studio). There's no tape, it's just straight into the DAW. The console, not shown, is a Tascam M2600 Mk II. I'm not actually using the tape sends for recording, I'm using the inserts. The reason is that I don't want the faders in the record path. Having faders in the record path is fine for tape, but unnecessary for DAW recording. I have it set up so I can tap off the insert without interrupting it, or patch a compressor to a channel before or after the DAW feed. Routing a mixer channel to a DAW input does take a short patch cable because you can't normal one patch bay to another.

Top patch bay: compressor I/O. The last eight channels give access to submix groups inserts.

Middle patch bay: interface access with mult function.

Bottom patch bay: Mixer channel inserts.

 

[rob aylestone]

While it works, I agree with farview - patchbays are really not a good idea for mic level signals. Fair enough, now people don't smoke, it's not as bad, but phantom power and low level audio should be the most direct and simple connection. I remember in my short broadcast radio part of my career as a junior it was me who got the jackfield cleaning chore and we did it once a week. In one studio we did have mics through a patch from another performing space. They were a constant pain.

Patchbay design is an art - the main aim is to make sure daily activity needs no patch cables, and consider it a failure in design of a patch cable lives in the bay permanently. This means it's very difficult to design for other people - only the users know how they'll work. What you need is to plan it on paper with essential, less common and occasional flows, then translate this to the individual modules.

 

[flyingace]

All good points fellas, thank you so much!
I agree and don't know why I didn't think about the MICs can go direct, they will be the only time a mic is used and I can always insert the compressor or mic pre into the channel, right?
Phantom power is going to be a pain on this console since the switch is in the back, not sure how I'm going to deal with that once the console is in my desk (See pic of it just built, no finish yet). I'm going to leave some access to the back, but there won't be much, I better lay off the Oreos if I want to fit back there to do change ups!!

Scenario:
I'll be plugging my Roland Fantom 7 in using it's balanced stereo connections, Line 6 Helix for guitar and bass DI (should this go balanced XLR as well? or just 1/4 TS?)
The rest of the synths I will have in the Roland 16 channel mixer, out to two tracks, line level TS or TRS into the patch bay so I can add it in or not. Although a dream would be having each synth seperate and just patch them in as needed. I rarely play more than two or three at a time, but sometimes they are playing at the same time, i'd like to separate the signals. Hrm.?
Acoustic guitar will be DI for taylor with condenser mics in room, other acoustic instruments will be condenser in room, Vocals will be via condenser or dynamic, scratch vocals while playing, lay down final tracks last. Drums will be sequenced on the Fantom.

 

[rob aylestone]

Re: phantom. Switch it on, and forget about it, There's no reason to be concerned. I've read the often quoted concerns but I've tried it on all kinds of mics - in fact the only oddity I have come across is when using a Soundcraft mixer as a sub-mixer for a big event. Plugging the Soundcraft into the main console by a couple of XLR cables (with phantom turned on) had no audible impact, but made all the submixer's LED light up in the meter section!

 

[flyingace]

Re: phantom. Switch it on, and forget about it, There's no reason to be concerned. I've read the often quoted concerns but I've tried it on all kinds of mics - in fact the only oddity I have come across is when using a Soundcraft mixer as a sub-mixer for a big event. Plugging the Soundcraft into the main console by a couple of XLR cables (with phantom turned on) had no audible impact, but made all the submixer's LED light up in the meter section!

Except for ribbon mics, it will destroy them, so I've always been a little leery of keeping it on and not sure how to deal with my balanced keyboards and equipment plugged into that, starting to wonder if it's better to just run them all line

 

[JimmyS1969]

Re: phantom. Switch it on, and forget about it, There's no reason to be concerned. I've read the often quoted concerns but I've tried it on all kinds of mics - in fact the only oddity I have come across is when using a Soundcraft mixer as a sub-mixer for a big event. Plugging the Soundcraft into the main console by a couple of XLR cables (with phantom turned on) had no audible impact, but made all the submixer's LED light up in the meter section!

I recall hearing that some ribbon mics can be damaged with phantom power. But then we shouldn't believe everything we hear right?

 

[flyingace]

I recall hearing that some ribbon mics can be damaged with phantom power. But then we shouldn't believe everything we hear right?

It's not like I can afford the old RCA 44s that were really sensitive. The recording studio in Nashville I was at this last weekend had 4 of them, each price out about $4-10000 these days! yipe! He also had a bunch of Neumann U47 & U87. Those of course have their own powersupplies. you don't want to run phantom to those or it might damage them but then... I can't afford those either!!

 

[flyingace]

Okay, this is helping, I think I am starting to understand better about how to use normalled patch bays. Here is my newest diagram. Know that as things hit patchbays, I indicate that they leave it by marking the bottom row with the same color, all plugged from the back, only plugged into the front for the digital interface and patching, obviously.
I'm now having a dilemma with the 8 buss outs and the PGM outs. What do I do with them?
AND I have many devices I'd like to monitor. I have the Mackie Big Knob but it only accepts two sources and two monitors. How can I monitor Reel to reel, cassette/cdr, my main 16 track tape AND the output from my LiveTrack L20/Logic Pro via iMac?
Planning to tryout the much hated BBE sonic maximizer though, I used it extensively in an analog environment at the studio I worked at for mix downs and loved it, along with a rack EQ, but maybe those things are a thing of the past, I'll find out. I've converted those spots in my diagram to "other outboard equip" for future compressors and such. (sugggestions on must haves?)
Thanks all, this is really helping me and I thank you all for your ideas!

 

[rob aylestone]

Except for ribbon mics, it will destroy them, so I've always been a little leery of keeping it on and not sure how to deal with my balanced keyboards and equipment plugged into that, starting to wonder if it's better to just run them all line

No no no. I have never had any issues with ribbons. Virtually every ribbon mic has a transformer between ribbon and the output connector. they’re centre tapped in most cases. This always comes up and I have never found any evidence of any ribbon mic suffering damage. Think about how the 48v is applied, the potential assuming there is no transformer in a weird design, would be the same on both ends. No current would flow. If you don’t believe me, I’ll do you a video of me applying phantom to my own ribbon mic and doing a commentary on it?

 

[flyingace]

No no no. I have never had any issues with ribbons. Virtually every ribbon mic has a transformer between ribbon and the output connector. they’re centre tapped in most cases. This always comes up and I have never found any evidence of any ribbon mic suffering damage. Think about how the 48v is applied, the potential assuming there is no transformer in a weird design, would be the same on both ends. No current would flow. If you don’t believe me, I’ll do you a video of me applying phantom to my own ribbon mic and doing a commentary on it?

Well if I have learned anything about being on the internet for information, you can't believe everything you read and not everyone is an expert. Including the guy running the studio in nashville professionally that warned about 48v and ribbon mics... he read it somewhere or was told by someone that believed it...
Regardless, I don't currently own any ribbon mics and I'm thinking I'll likely use condenser mics on vocals and guitars, so I'm thinking I'll leave phantom power on for about 4 channels in the middle, where I usually put vocals anyway... that will solve the problem!

 

[rob aylestone]

The biggest downside to leaving it on is the cracks you get when you connect a mic with the fader up. This again kills HF drivers and if you accidentally do it you will die the death of 1000 cuts. After all these years I still do it, including very expensive hung pa. I might be doing system tweaks on my own and I want to disconnect the mic I’ve just been using and swap it for another. I put my hand in my pocket for my phone to remotely turn the live fader down and remember it’s sitting on the mixer, so could walk to the back pull the fader down and walk back, or I could just swap it live, and wince when you get umpteen KW of crack. Much, much worse than in the studio. Nothing had died yet.

 

[spantini]

... ... leaving it on is the cracks you get when you connect a mic with the fader up. This again kills HF drivers and if you accidentally do it you will die the death of 1000 cuts....

A recently discovered, never before screened film from Bruce Lee's personal archives

 

[flyingace]

So my biggest question now is: How do I deal with the 8 BUSS OUTs and the 16 PGM Outs From the back of my console? What do I use them for? I know on the M-520, the BUSSes are used for summing or combining tracks, where should I insert them in my system?
On the PGM outs, not sure what they are or used for.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

The program outputs are for connecting to a 16-track deck when you want to be able to submix multiple channels to single tracks or a stereo pair of tracks. Since there are 8 buses, there are two PGM output per bus channel. If you're connecting the XLR bus output to your patchbay, you don't really need the functionality of the PGM outputs. You can just use the patch bay to put any XLR bus output wherever you need it. It's possible you won't use the buses all that much anyway. I hardly use the ones in the system in my pics above. The last 8 channels on the top patch bay are the bus inserts. I'm using one to feed a delay because I've used up all the aux sends on the mixer (that one black guitar type cable coming out of channel 17).

 

[flyingace]

The program outputs are for connecting to a 16-track deck when you want to be able to submix multiple channels to single tracks or a stereo pair of tracks. Since there are 8 buses, there are two PGM output per bus channel. If you're connecting the XLR bus output to your patchbay, you don't really need the functionality of the PGM outputs. You can just use the patch bay to put any XLR bus output wherever you need it. It's possible you won't use the buses all that much anyway. I hardly use the ones in the system in my pics above. The last 8 channels on the top patch bay are the bus inserts. I'm using one to feed a delay because I've used up all the aux sends on the mixer (that one black guitar type cable coming out of channel 17).

Thanks, I found a thread here on HR.com where Sweetbeats talked about the use of them. Sounds great if I was tracking bands with drums and such but 16 channels will be plenty for me and if I want to combine synths to one channel, I have them routed not just individual patch bay but also to stereo output from a sub mixer. I probably won't use the busses at all.