recording Indie rock

[Good Friend]

holy crap

Honestly, memorizing the "theory" is one thing, but being able to use it in a way that helps improve songs is like learning a whole other skill thats a lot tougher than just memorizing the terms and elements that people consider to be "music theory". And im sure there are alot of people here who hate me for being honest about what sucks, but what i just said is true as shit, and it will continue to seperate the shit musicians from the good ones until the end of time.

No i dont consider all indie to be emo, that would be ridiculous. I despise the fact that "indie" has become some kind of pedigree when really anyone can be indie. My cat could be indie. Your mom is probably indie. Osama is sort of indie too. I say who gives a shit. And emo is the worst shit of all time. Seriously the only people who dig emo are little teenage idiots who dont know any better. And thats the secret right there THEY DONT KNOW ANY BETTER. And if you think im wrong to say that emo garbage will be thrown away the instant the next big trend comes along than you are insane because thats the way it works. Thats just fukcing delusional. Lame songs. Lame singing. Lame everything except teenage appeal. And i cant really give too much credit for teenage appeal. I mean, dont teenagers always swallow just about anything thats out around the time they are "finding themselves" in life? Seriously theyll believe anything you show them as long as it empowers their sense of rebellion and appeals to their sense that they are breaking new ground that mommy and daddy just cant understand. Anyone who argues that is just crazy cause its not my opinion its a fact of life. Seriously if you can take al look around the world and the history of art and music and find EMO the most appealing and interesting work than blow your fukcing head off please.

And as far as CELLO PUDDINGs dumbass attempt to insult me... I realize there are trends in all music. But i dig the music first above any fashion. Ill take image as crazy as it comes or as simple as it comes. But i wont get into shit just because its cool looking or because its getting alot of media attention. If you want to bad mouth me for saying i care about music as art form over music as art of getting laid go ahead, but youre on the side of stupidity. Im sorry i just dont get impressed over gimmicks and stupid shit. People arent all the same. But i think sometimes people are just scared to look at themselves and ask why they do the things they do. Why they like the things they like.

I have a sometimes high standard. But one thing i hate is ego filled bullshit and instruments obviously playing in key but in some kind of wash of formless cliched harmony. I am no genius but i feel that i can tell by listening to a song whether the writer is doing things with intent or just relying on their musical comfort zone and just sort of emulating how they think a song should go. I think the presence of deceptive chord substitutions and other similar tricks like that make good writing good WRITING. I listen for compositional elements that play off each other like simple melody over complex harmony or vice versa. And those types of things make for good songs and i respect those writers. I dont respect punk ass idiots who put the cart before the horse just to get up on a stage and act cool because the tunes suck. But you can never make anyone feel bad for being an idiot. Nope. Cause everyones got an opinion no matter how worthless. Some guy will always be there to say "hey its art man" or "how can you judge others emotions?". Well im not judging emotions. Im judging the artistic skill with which they use to express those emotions. I dont need to apologize to those who cant tell the difference between those two. I refuse.

 

[Good Friend]

Cello Pudding

Hey Cello where can i hear your tunes at? I want to hear the full brilliant glory of INDIE music so i can throw out everything i thought i knew. Is it on myspace? It might take me awhile to find it there because there are about 15 million other brilliant and glorious undiscovered INDIE songwriters on there to sort through.

 

[Good Friend]

Cello

There really is nothing more exciting than the moment when you hear a songwriters tunes who has "FORCE OF NATURE" written under his name. Nothing says "brilliant" like being a self proclaimed "FORCE OF NATURE".

Ill make you a promise FORCE OF NATURE. I havent heard your songs. I havent heard your influences. I know nothing about you except the couple insults youve tossed me and that, despite being a human being, you are a FORCE OF NATURE. But i will GUESS what your music sounds like and i will GUESS the extent of your songwriting ability and then i will go listen to your tunes. And if i am wrong and you stand out in ANY way i will apologize for doubting a FORCE OF NATURE.

 

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

words

STFU, get out of this thread since you have no reason to be here other than to troll, and go back to assland.

 

[ez_willis]

Honestly, memorizing the "theory" is one thing, but being able to use it in a way that helps improve songs is like learning a whole other skill thats a lot tougher than just memorizing the terms and elements that people consider to be "music theory". And im sure there are alot of people here who hate me for being honest about what sucks, but what i just said is true as shit, and it will continue to seperate the shit musicians from the good ones until the end of time. .

I agree. I can't read or write music, but I know notes, modes, and scales.

 

[cello_pudding]

i'm laughing over here. if you know there are trends and wannabee's in every genre, why are you picking on indie?

force of nature? i have no idea how to even change that. it changes from my post count. it goes from something like -newbie to registered user to regular to other made up names. one of them apparently being "force of nature"

i do, however, know how to have a link under my name.

click cello_pudding, and go to "view homepage"

its my music. i have some other things on the way. i'm fairly proud of what's there though. there is one song that was assembled from scratch tracks, and it cuts short, though.

my influences are from classical music (debussy, stravinsky) and from indie sounding artists (sufjan, nick drake)


you've made yourself look silly.

 

[giraffe]

To make a decision to purposely not learn theory is retarded. To not learn it because you are just too fucking lazy, I can understand, but not wanting to expand your knowledge of a craft/hobby/career is just limiting yourself.

agreed, but i'm not talking about purposeful flaunting of theory. but hell, i'm from the south and some of the best "back woods" type musicians know little more then the notes. but they know what sounds good together, they just couldn't tell you why.
some people didn't avoid learning theory, it just didn't come up.

 

[boingoman]

i'm laughing over here. if you know there are trends and wannabee's in every genre, why are you picking on indie?
.

Because all of it is sucky, trendy, wanna-be music.

 

[cello_pudding]

oh. so true.

have you ever heard of this genre called rap? its completely void of all trends and stays completely clear from fusing sexual appearance and music. the subject matter of the songs is usually really deep, and i've never ever heard a rap song that sounds at all similar to another one. and they all dress very differently from eachother too.

have you heard of metal? none of those bands sound the same either..yada.yaddayadda

ever heard of blues?

pop?

punk?




etc...

 

[Chris Jahn]

I really tried to read EVERYTHING before i posted my opinion, but i admit to skiming by the time i got to the second page so i hope this wasnt touched on, but i dont think it was.

HOW, WHEN, and WHY is "indie rock" a GENRE!!!!! it means INDEPENDENT!!! Self realeased, or no ties to a major, a booking agent etc...etc....

There is NO sound, MTV made that shit up, if you wnat your guitar to sound "indie" based on the ridiculous definition's put forth by radio, mtv and horrible magazines, then you could sound like anything from modest mouse, to the rapture, to fugazi, to elliot smith, to at the drive in, to mars volta, to fall out boy etc....

Its all crap, cuz its all just rock and roll when you break it down to brass tacks. before green day blew up, most punk was independent, do you want a guitar that sounds like black flag?

JUST DO WHAT SOUNDS GOOD FOR THE BAND!!!!!!

 

[cello_pudding]

it started to just mean independent. but it has a sound now

still. i know the indie scenesters. mars volta, fall out boy..not indie. hootie is nooooooooot indie.


if you want to say you're not with a label, its safe to say independent, not indie.

words change

 

[boingoman]

oh. so true.

have you ever heard of this genre called rap? its completely void of all trends and stays completely clear from fusing sexual appearance and music. the subject matter of the songs is usually really deep, and i've never ever heard a rap song that sounds at all similar to another one. and they all dress very differently from eachother too.

have you heard of metal? none of those bands sound the same either..yada.yaddayadda

ever heard of blues?

pop?

punk?




etc...

What you say is true, but indie has it's own particular set of characteristics that set it apart. I deal with at least a half-dozen indie bands every month, and there are definitely apt stereotypes.

 

[cello_pudding]

...and every other genre doesnt?


i think the only thing indie has that you dislike is that they try to be different. and try to build off of that golden rule

is that a bad thing to want to have? no!! will many bands coming out of the same era and influence have a similar sound?? yes. have i heard many many crappy indie bands, yes! i've heard crappy everything! i hate doing shows. hate it! and i only am recalling 10 days of touring and misc days. i really like performing (still yet to do my own songs...should be even better), but you're supposed to be nice and listen to the other people's sets. i hate that more than anything. i couldn't take it the small time i toured. and we booked with indie bands and whatnot, and i really really like indie. don't get me wrong there were about 3 bands i remember that were okay. but if there's 3 or 4 or 5 sets a night...that's 37 sets that sucked HARD.

stop booking indie bands and start booking rap/blues/punk or hip hop every night. my guess is you'll start getting the same attitude.

are we getting anywhere here?

 

[boingoman]

...and every other genre doesnt?

Oh, they sure do.

i think the only thing indie has that you dislike is that they try to be different. and try to build off of that golden rule?

Indie stopped being different awhile ago. It's been around long enough to have it's own name and stereotypes. And a million kids being different in exactly the same way isn't "trying to be different" anymore.

Listen dude, I was just making a joke, sorry if it came off wrong.

 

[Good Friend]

Force Of

Hey, if you didnt write FORCE OF NATURE im sorry for that, i thought it was something you wrote. Cause if you didnt write it fine, but if you did youre an idiot.

I went and listened to your tunes. It was pretty much what i expected i guess. The voice is kinda off putting. I dont know what to say its just unpleasant in some way. The music itself has that music school guy sort of sound, which i expected. I dont know, it just has a kind of predictable nature that just doesnt stand out to me. I dont really see it reaching anyone who isnt already bent on liking that kind of music at all costs.

As far as composition goes, i dont know the tunes just kind of start up there really isnt any emotional setup or contrasts. In fact there is rarely a contrasting feeling that some musical element is being setup. More time seems to have been taken with layering of sounds rather than establishing expectations so that they could be pleasantly violated later in the arrangement. And thats what i expected most. Like many indie and emo songs there are hardly any tactful "holes" created in the arrangements and song parts. Nothing really hooks it just kind of meanders half aimlessly.

Also, alot of the songs lyrics just pop up mid verse and are off to the races without any real solid memorable pieces in place. Which i think is a common and bad mistake in music. If you are going to have cellos and glockenspeils playing all these patterns and everything right off the bat you should start with a simple phrases or melody line THEN go into the story of your epic indie life in the verse. Starting with too many layered parts without a simplified lyrical or melodic anchor is to me, songwriting suicide. Its not entertaining unless someone WANTS to believe it is. Strive to entertain first, then put in your magical indie cellos and your mystical enchanted bell kits in.

Also, now this is just my opinion, if i was you id try for irony more often. If my voice sounded like creeds grandpa after smoking a huge bong rip id maybe try to offset that with some simpler childish melodies or phrases. That way the listener is in between emotions on what they are hearing. When i hear those kinds of voices like you have they are always doing the same lyrics and singing methods. Irony could breathe life into it and set you apart. Also with your choice of instruments. Humans bring their own associations from everything theyve ever heard and seen with them when they hear your song. And you can let that work for you or against you. You have chosen to make cellos sound like cellos and bell kits sound like bell kits and so on. I think if you violated expectations youd go farther in entertaining the listener. If its going to sound like a cello, dont let it play what a cello always plays everytime people are hearing cello. Its a doubley predictable and forgettable experience for the listener at that point.

You probably think im a horses ass and a dickhead and all the typical arguments but really who could deny what i have said about composition in regard to your tunes? You can argue but its all right there in the songs themselves. You arent terrible you just need to break free or something. Reinvent rather than coast. And thats the point of my entire argument. Who gives a fuck what the genre is called if the songs are lame and half made up of previous successes.

 

[cello_pudding]

pfffft...my song lyrics pop up mid verse? that doesn't even make sense.

my lyrics start in the middle of my lyrics?

you want hooks?

magical enchanted bells and cellos?

strings instruments have been used for a looooooooong time, and all of a sudden, the mere sound of them is boring? every instrument on the face of the earth that's not going through a bunch of effects is apparently boring.

show me the million artists i sound like that you've heard.

i'm thinking of the TOP of the indie/acoustic scene and they play extremely simple chords (andrew bird, damien rice, sufjan stevens, ray lamontagne) very simple folk with stuff i could teach to beginners. i know bs'd indie. i quit a band a few months ago that was.

as for the texture... i like things to sound natural, but i agree a bit to having a dynamic. i would just have to cut some things.

as for the lyrics...my style is very different for each song. which did you listen to? one is nick drakish without a chorus, one is inspired by a poet george macdonald, the others are more normal. one being without its chorus, as its a clip, one is just your average verse verse chorus, verse verse chorus. again, it really just depends on what you listened to.

by the way...what do you listen to, and what do you sound like

 

[cello_pudding]

i don't typically swear. but holy shit. do you listen to human league?

80's keyboards and synths??

now i know i can totally ride off any of your opinions on lyrics, texture, melody, harmony, and basically music in general.

we are two people with largely different musical taste.

you just need to just get used to people not being like you and shut up. seriously.

 

[Good Friend]

ohwa

I guess its not so much that the lyrics start right in the middle of verses, its more like they just start out of nowhere without much warning or setup. I dont know its just kind of overused and its a little lazy in my eyes.

As far as me calling cellos boring i never said boring. I said people bring their own associations to the song. And people have heard cellos so much by now and they have associations. Thats psychological fact, its not even my opinion. All im saying is an artist would strive to make something stand out more (in my opinion). Take Raymond Scott for example, there are many times when his songs use traditional instruments in ways they arent normally intended to sound. You can argue all you want but i still stand by what i said. The listener wants to be entertained there is no arguing that. And boredom is not entertainment. End of argument.

What do i listen to? All kinds of things. But giving you a list of what i like really wont help much. Cause i dont listen to music for style as much as for songwriting elements that work. Thats why i have such a wide taste. I dont really have two or three bands that i worship and wear the shirt and copy. I just listen to everything and take the parts that force me to like them and think about them. Why does the listener "want" this chord to move up to this chord? Why does this chord substitution work and not this one? Those are the things i think about when i hear tunes.

You mock the human league but i sense it is more for their look and their era and their less than serious tone. But you shouldnt mock them too much, they wrote some big hits that were more than just products of their image. "Keep Feeling Fascination" is a brilliantly written pop tune and people will dance to that at retro clubs till the end of time. I dont prefer outrageous 80s image and all that, but i listen to the composition. I reverse engineer the song. Why would it not work to have the verse just start without the intro? What would happen if the verse went an extra time longer? These are the things i think about, and thats what makes me understand popular music so well.

Heres a beginners trick to start learning how to listen to composition for real. Take a great song. A GREAT timeless song not some song that you like cause the guy in the band is your same age and white and looks kinda like you and you like the kind of girls who listen to his music. Take that song and rearrange the parts. There are BRILLIANT chord progressions that sound like ass if they go one repeat too many or too few. There are choruses that sounds so catchy yet sound out of place if you move them around in the song. But if you leave them where they are they work and they make the song. The lesson is that even a great "riff" or idea can fail without understanding the emotional effects of number of repeats and so on. And most people, almost all people, rely on their natural love of music to fool themselves into thinking they can arrange based on a whim. But theres real useable tricks and devices and they make songs work. Anyone who thinks im a dumbfuck go try this out on a famous hit song and youll see in two seconds thats its the truth. From there you just have to try to figure out why things sound the way they do and what "cures" what song element wise. I dont see why anyone would reject effort, and reject taking pride in actual COMPOSITION.

 

[cello_pudding]

my opinions are facts

............
,,,,,

 

[cello_pudding]

there's a million different things people listen for in music. not everyones going to be the same.

not everyone wants to listen to john cage and harry partch. actually, very few.


what song did you listen to? i'm guessing friend