Recording guitar

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typeS5

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Do i need to run an electric guitar to an amp/v-amp before it reaches the mixer to get a more lively sound? So far going from guitar -> processor -> mixer is still sounding really soft/flat no matter how much i play around with it... and i can't EQ it much either b4 it starts clipping.
 
have you tried mic'ing the cab rather than going DI ?
Micing the cab is the way too go....but if ya really have to DI it...then its all about messing w/ it to find the best sound.
Also...what kind of soundcard you using?..if its just a standard one...this is most likely your problem or a combination of the two!
 
i have an audiophile 2496 so i know the problems dont lie in the soundcard.

mic the cab... that's like saying mic the amp, right? Right now i currently have a PG58 that i use to mic amps/acoustics. Any suggestions as to what mic i can get for under 100 bucks to mic amps?
 
typeS5 said:
Do i need to run an electric guitar to an amp/v-amp before it reaches the mixer to get a more lively sound? So far going from guitar -> processor -> mixer is still sounding really soft/flat no matter how much i play around with it... and i can't EQ it much either b4 it starts clipping.

Sounds like you are recording the guitar directly into the Line-IN of your sound card.

A guitar is a mic-level instrument, and the signal is too low for a Line-IN on your soundcard. You will have to use a pre-amp of some sort to convert the signal from the guitar into a line-level signal. The second you do, your sound problems disappear.

Some effects pedals can be used as pre-amps, but I wouldnt count on it. Invest in a sub-$100 pre-amp (such as the M-Audio's AudioBuddy), or a small mixer with decent pre-amps, and voila!
 
mic pre's on the UB1202 wouldnt cut it, would it?

yes i agree about the pedal... didnt make any difference whatsoever.

I was thinking of just purchasing a seperate guitar preamp if it's worth another 100-200 bucks that i'm willing to spend.
 
typeS5 said:
mic pre's on the UB1202 wouldnt cut it, would it?

If they are the same IMPs as on the 1204, they should work just fine.

HOWEVER...

We are talking about the MIC inputs here, not the Line inputs. The line inputs are +4 dB, same as your card line inputs.

So you would need to get a XLR->TRS convertor and stick your guitar cable jack into that, or get a XLR -> TS cable (AKA an unbalanced cable).

Then plug it into one of the XLR MIC inputs (and make sure that you keep phantom power OFF).

yes i agree about the pedal... didnt make any difference whatsoever.

I was thinking of just purchasing a seperate guitar preamp if it's worth another 100-200 bucks that i'm willing to spend.

Try the above first. You might be pleasantly surprised. :) You have already paid for those IMPs - just be aware that they sit only on the XLR inputs.
 
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try it out once i have the time.

Also, what's the difference between a balanced/unbalanced connection? Haven't really found any good explanation as to what balanced/unbalanced really means.
 
typeS5 said:
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try it out once i have the time.

Also, what's the difference between a balanced/unbalanced connection? Haven't really found any good explanation as to what balanced/unbalanced really means.

Do you know how sound waves can cancel each other out? If a sound wave is, say, +1, and you make a copy of it, and invert it, so that is -1, and then you add them together, you get nothing at all?

Balanced connections use this principle to cancel out noise that is picked up by the cable.

Here's how it works:

On a balanced connection, the signal from the instrument (say, a mic) travels down the wire on two conductors/wires (not counting the shield). The same signal is on both conductors, but ONE of them is inverted. Lets call these two signals +S and -S.

Now as the signal travels down the long wire, electric noise can be picked up along the way (wrap a mic cable round a transformer and you get the idea). That noise arrives at the other end as well, and it will be the same on each wire. Lets call the noise N, and since it is not inverted, it is +N on each wire.

Now the two signals arrive at the receiving end. One conductor carries the original signal and added noise (i.e. +S and +N), the other one carries the inverted original signal and the added noise (i.e. -S and +N).

Now here's the magic part - the receiving device (like an amp) takes the inverted signal, and inverts it again, i.e. turning -S into +S, so that it now is +S and -N.

Now it adds the two signals (from the two conductors) together. Since the original signal, and the inverted+inverted signal are the same, the original signal is nice and strong (think of it as +S + +S = +2S).

But the noise that is picked up along the way faces a different situation.

Because the noise appears identically on both conductors (+N and +N), the inversion at the receiving end will invert the noise signal on that conductor (making it -N), and when it is added to the original signal (which also has that noise on it, but not inverted, i.e. +N), the noise is cancelled out (+N + -N = 0), leaving you with a nice, clean and strong signal, without noise.

Balanced signals can be sent over long distances, which is why you will always see them used at stage shows and studios.

Guitars are usually unbalanced devices, and serious noise makers (as are pedals). The longer the cable, the worse the noise potential. Which is why stage/studio engineers often plug short guitar cables into something known as a DI (Direct Injection) box, which converts the unbalanced guitar signal into a balanced signal.

On your mixer, both the XLR MIC and TRS LINE inputs are balanced. You can plug an unbalanced cable into a balanced connection and it will work, but of course you wont get a balanced signal.

But if you plug an unbalanced XLR cable (where pins 1 and 3 are shorted) and switch on Phantom Power, you could end up with a smoked mixer, or guitar, or both. :) Hence take care.
 
Wow thanks a lot for the explanation! I understand fully. Is that why on the ends of the connections, considering they are 1/4", there are two black lines around the end of the 1/4"? Just wondering.

Btw, I tried out what you suggested previously w/ the mic pre and guitar. Sounds much more lively now and i can make it much louder. =D

Now just have to figure out how to properly EQ all of these recordings. It's hard to get it done w/out studio monitors.. just currently using some stanton SJ Pro 2000 headphones to mix. Is it ok to mix w/ these headphones or headphones, in general? Any tips i can get on EQing, also? Any at all would be helpful.
 
typeS5 said:
Wow thanks a lot for the explanation! I understand fully. Is that why on the ends of the connections, considering they are 1/4", there are two black lines around the end of the 1/4"? Just wondering.

Correct. You can create balanced connections using any connector that uses three pins (original signal, inverted signal, signal-ground). On XLR connectors, that is evident. On TRS connectors (Tip-Ring-Shield), aka "Stereo" connectors, the Tip carries the original signal (hot), the ring (that is electrically separated from the other two) carries the inverted signal (cold) and the Shield (the rear-most part of the connector, closest to the cover) is the signal ground.

Btw, I tried out what you suggested previously w/ the mic pre and guitar. Sounds much more lively now and i can make it much louder. =D

Hallelujah! :)

Now just have to figure out how to properly EQ all of these recordings. It's hard to get it done w/out studio monitors.. just currently using some stanton SJ Pro 2000 headphones to mix. Is it ok to mix w/ these headphones or headphones, in general?

Any audio-purist will tell you that mixing with cans is a no-no. There are reasons for this - the proximity of the "speakers" of the cans to your ears (even pressed on them) robs you of all "spatial" environment - i.e. the room and the air around you. That means you would hear frequencies that the room would have otherwise swallowed.

Having said that, there are some headphones (like the AKG k240S/M/DF - I use the DF) that do not press onto your ears, so you get *some* air between your ears and the cans' speakers. But it is a compromise.

Read this great article:

http://www.bluebearsound.com/articles/headphones.htm

For real mixing, you will need decent monitors and and acoustically treated room. The latter does not mean "sound-proof", but one that has been "treated" take care of standing waves, major audio reflections, etc.

Any tips i can get on EQing, also? Any at all would be helpful.

Heh. First tip - don't. Less is more. :)

Next tip - run (don't walk) here, and read these great articles:

http://www.tweakheadz.com/EQ_and_the_Limits_of_Audio.html

http://www.recordingwebsite.com/articles/eqprimer.php

And finally, the ultimate guide:

http://www.tweakheadz.com/guide.htm

If this doesn't get you started, nothing will. ;)

Best of luck!
 
Interesting info about balanced cables. Just out of curiosity, would it make any noticable difference to use balanced cables from guitar to amp?

Also, How can you tell if an XLR cable is balanced?

thanks
 
hawk said:
Interesting info about balanced cables. Just out of curiosity, would it make any noticable difference to use balanced cables from guitar to amp?

Also, How can you tell if an XLR cable is balanced?

thanks

XLR cables are already balanced because it possesses the 3 connections that dino mentioned.

btw Dino, thanks a bunch!!
 
hawk said:
Interesting info about balanced cables. Just out of curiosity, would it make any noticable difference to use balanced cables from guitar to amp?

Also, How can you tell if an XLR cable is balanced?

thanks

If you could use a balanced cable with a guitar, it would make a noticable difference to any noise picked up en-route, but considering that guitars (especially those with single-coil pickups, a la Fender Strat) are already major sources of noise themselves (and then come any effect units), this would be an exercise in futility.

BTW - interesting point: Humbucker pickups work on a similar principle as balanced connections to reduce noise.

Merely having a balanced cable is not enough - there is a certain amount of circuitry involved to invert the signals, etc.

Balanced cables come in handy when you have long cables, or cables running through an electrically noisy area.

Looking at an XLR terminated cable won't tell you whether is can be used for balanced connections - you either take the manufacturer's word for it, or grab a screw driver and find out for yourself. ;) If you have one wire each running to pins 1, 2 and 3 of the XLR plug (or on the TRS contacts of a TRS plug), you are good to go. If you see a short somewhere, or only one wire and one shield, you have been shortchanged.
 
ahh another quick question... is it best to keep Gain high and Level low, vice versa, or does it even make a difference as long as it sounds the way i want?
 
typeS5 said:
ahh another quick question... is it best to keep Gain high and Level low, vice versa, or does it even make a difference as long as it sounds the way i want?

Gain High/Level Low seems to be an accepted guideline, but remember that after a certain point, the high gain introduces "character" (or "colour") to the sound that you may want to avoid, so don't over do it. :) And remember - 0 dB is the digital limit before things break down.

But in general, your ears are the final judge.
 
that balanced info bit should be made sticky

thanks soo much that really sorted out what balanced cables were in my brain, i knew they were better but i didnt know why! :o
 
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