recording distorted guitar with a small condenser?

[CyanJaguar]

I understand that SCs are transparent and add nothing to the sound. Why are thy not used more in recording heavy guitar? especially if the setup sounds good in the room

Does anyone have clips of an amp recorded with a SC? I am really liking the idea of transparency on everything nowadays.

 

[GABritton]

There's no reason you can't do it. I've never done it, Try it, maybe in combination with another mic and blend the two together. A small diaphragmwill record the source just like any other mic, but it will have a mid-range "presence". Mic placement will probably be important with a SDC since the pattern will more than likely be tighter.

 

[chessrock]

I understand that SCs are transparent and add nothing to the sound. Why are thy not used more in recording heavy guitar? especially if the setup sounds good in the room.

Good to see ya around these parts again, Cyan.

This is just a personal opinion. But honestly, I don't think a lot of these amps really do sound good in the room. If that were the case, then more people would just be doing exactly as you suggest, and it would work (Earthworks would probably be making the most popular amp mics).

I think what happens with a lot of guitar players is they just lose a certain amount of perspective. It's a lot like recording your own voice ... you listen back and think: "Do I really sound like that?" Mmmm yea, you do.

Some of it also has to do with volume and size. Whenever you have something blaring out over the large and loud speakers of a guitar amp ... you lose all perspective of what it's really going to sound like playing over more pedestrian speakers and at pedestrian volumes. Not to mention how that's all going to pan out in the context of a mix. Some people never "really listen" to what they sound like in that context ... most often because bands have such poor monitoring conditions. Not to mention the inevitable hearing degradation that most who play that particular genre of music are going to suffer over time.

But it surprizes me. I can listen to an amp and tell right away how it's going to sound when tracked. It's obvious as a duck to me when someone's amp sucks and their tone is either way too shrill, thin, or too mushy. I didn't always have that perspective; especially back when I was on the other side, playing in bands that featured loud guitars. I think it's a mental state of mind where you just have to learn to listen, and to train your ears to be honest with you; "Does this really sound right?"

Sometimes the truth can hurt a little.

 

[Track Rat]

Np reason not too. I like a C-1000 on the occassional amp. AT4033's are nicer still but that's a medium diaphram. I just don't put them as close as a dynamic. Usually back at least 6"-12". Also try walking around the amp while someone else is playing and listen for a spot sounds fattest. Put a mic there.

 

[CyanJaguar]

Hi chessrock,

it is indeed good to be back in the music scene. I understand exactly what you are trying to say. I read a very well articulated post of yours on another forum.

The volume issue is a big one. If it is recorded at 117Db and played back at 60, obviously the playback will sound small and in despair, but if it is played back at 117 db then it should sound the same right?

Now that raises the question? Do many guitarists complain about a bad recorded sound because playback is lower or because the recorded sound is indeed altered in some way? Or is it because their original sound just really blows?

Anyhow, my question has been answered by Track rat, Gabritton and You. A SC mic will capture the exact essence of my sound, just like it captures the essence of a good concert piano or classical singer.

 

[chessrock]

Now that raises the question? Do many guitarists complain about a bad recorded sound because playback is lower or because the recorded sound is indeed altered in some way? Or is it because their original sound just really blows?

All three.

If this means anything ... in almost every instance where the guitarist is playing out of a nice amp, he's happy and there are no complaints. It's always the guys who are compromizing by using cheap, poorly-maintained, or just innapropriate amps (trying to make a Fender sound like a Mesa) that never seem to be happy.

It's a trend I can predict with more than 80% accuracy. Guy bring in a Mesa Boogie ... we fiddle with the tone for a few minutes ... I put up a mic, record and everyone's happy.

Guy brings in a Peavey or a Crate with a distorion pedal ... maybe a Line6 Spider or worse yet a Marshall Valvestate (yuck) ... we fiddle endlessly, Guitarist complains it doesn't sound like his amp, and no one's happy in the end.

The amp has almost everything to do with it. Good ones record well.

 

[CyanJaguar]

worse yet a marshall valvestate? I just bought a marshall valvestate avt50 and I picked it over the much heralded fender hot rod or the fender deville. I also picked it over a vox valvetronix.

 

[chessrock]

Hmmm. Is it too late to exchange it for a JCM-2000 TSL?

 

[gumplunger]

The Valvestate's can sound nifty if you're just sitting around playing in your room, but try to crank it up with a band, or as he said, worse yet, try to record it, you won't get anywhere. I know, I've got a AVT150 that I can't seem to get rid of. Every day I wish I had gotten a 5150 instead.

 

[tubedude]

I've been experimenting with a C4 on dirty guitars for several months now, and I like it. There seems to be more detail, and a bigger clearer sound than using a dynamic... but... it also makes you hear that top end hash, and you ahve to rethink your technique a little about where you put it.
It does sound good though, really good.

 

[tubedude]

All three.

If this means anything ... in almost every instance where the guitarist is playing out of a nice amp, he's happy and there are no complaints. It's always the guys who are compromizing by using cheap, poorly-maintained, or just innapropriate amps (trying to make a Fender sound like a Mesa) that never seem to be happy.

It's a trend I can predict with more than 80% accuracy. Guy bring in a Mesa Boogie ... we fiddle with the tone for a few minutes ... I put up a mic, record and everyone's happy.

Guy brings in a Peavey or a Crate with a distorion pedal ... maybe a Line6 Spider or worse yet a Marshall Valvestate (yuck) ... we fiddle endlessly, Guitarist complains it doesn't sound like his amp, and no one's happy in the end.

The amp has almost everything to do with it. Good ones record well.

This is true... but from what I am realizing more every day, there is a certain voodoo to it all. Like my MEsa sounds 3 times better than this dudes Peavey does, yet, for whatever reasons unknown, the Peavey records like a million dollar project. My mesa records very well, the Peavey just kills. I dont know why things work that way.
I spent about 2 days trying to make a line 6 and a Johnson sound acceptable, and it was just not happening. After a month they wanted to re-record the guitars, we tried again, no luck. THose things just suck for recording. Tube amps really really do record better in my experience. Its just a fact of life. Those modelors cant model voodoo, cause there is no way to pinpoint what voodoo really is.

 

[chessrock]

Like my MEsa sounds 3 times better than this dudes Peavey does, yet, for whatever reasons unknown, the Peavey records like a million dollar project. My mesa records very well, the Peavey just kills.

I wouldn't discount some of the Peavey amps. They made some great stuff. Probably shouldn't have included them on my shit list, huh? Their VTM's (namely the 120) are just great for high-gain stuff. The 5150 does it's thing pretty well ... and the Classic 30's and 50's are just awesome for Blues and other types of clean guitar.

 

[Wireneck]

worse yet a marshall valvestate?

I agree that 9 out of the 10 valvestate models suck dick but I own one of the earlier Bi-chorus 200 models and I think it rocks some kind of fierce. It doesn't always fit the bill but between that and my mesa boogie head I can normally crank out some cool tones.
Death's entire "Sound Of perseverance" album was done with early valvestates. It sounds pretty killer in a metal context.
Like I said though I know guys who had the vs100 and the valvestate RG serires or whatever they were and they were terrible. Actually I think what made the valvestates even worse was the slightly smaller 4x12 cabs Marshall made to sell with them.

 

[CyanJaguar]

you can hear the valvestate here.

http://www.marshallamps.com/images/avt2000/avthearthegear.html

 

[Richard Monroe]

I've been using AKG C2000B for a close mic and Neuman KM184 at about 8 feet and getting excellent results, compared to SM57 and Sennheiser e609. Works for me. The C2000B is a great close mic for a cab, with the 10db pad on the mic, and the 20db pad on the preamp engaged.-Richie

 

[noisedude]

I wonder if an element of this is due to the comfort of "stick up a 57/421 and let's do this thang!". I know Paul wouldn't do that (because he's allergic to SM57s) but for those of us with limited capacity for learning, we 'master' ('manage') one technique and then play safe from then on.

For those of you running studios ... do you find you have time with a client to try other mics? Do you stick up the normal config and then drop another mic somewhere to try it out, and then scrap it if traditional works better?

Honestly, I'm fascinated to know how you proper engineers do this stuff.

 

[Dot]

I understand that SCs are transparent and add nothing to the sound.

No, that's really not true. SDC's can be transparent or have color just like LDC's. For example, Earthworks are pretty transparent. DPA is as transparent as it gets. On the other end of the spectrum, SDC's like the Josephson C42 are fairly colored.

The size of the diaphragm doesn't matter. All mics add their own character to the sound. Some just less than others.

 

[Warhead]

Small diaphragm mics do tend to be flatter in response, and the difference in sound between most LDC's and SDC's is typically quite noticeable. Large diaphragms tend to be less accurate ie "colored".

But it's not always true, but more true for SDC's opposed to LDC's.

Size does matter, if it didn't manufacturers would be stamping out small diaphragms all day long to save money on materials.

War

 

[gusfmm]

Could someone comment on how good or bad a MXL V69M is compared to some of those mentined before? Again, keep in mind that the applycation remains the same, distorted guitar from a guitar cabinet.

Going a bit lower, a quick comparative comment would also be appreciated with respect to the MXL 2003.

 

[acorec]

I understand that SCs are transparent and add nothing to the sound. Why are thy not used more in recording heavy guitar? especially if the setup sounds good in the room

Does anyone have clips of an amp recorded with a SC? I am really liking the idea of transparency on everything nowadays.

Some of the best mics I find for elec guitar cabs are:
Groove Tubes GT44 - Top notch very focused sound. Brings out the characteristics in the pre-amp. Sits in the mix perfectly with no muddiness.

Oktava MC012 - great for the mids. Really senesative to placement. Likes all my pre-amps from Avalon down to DMP3.

Oktava ML52 ribbon - great for full sound. Really smooth for the "chug'chugs"

Oktava MKL2500 - tube - much like the GT44 but the sound is not so concentrated. Better for a sparse mix with only 1 rythme guitar.

I find that these mics blow away mics like the MD421 and the SM57 by a wide margin. The GT44 is especially very dynamic like but is not at all muddy. It is very balanced and focused and ideal for a mix with alot going on. The GT44 also EQs very well and is damn hard to get it to sound bad.