Recording direct with Taylor ES2

Q

quesne

New member
I have a Taylor 816e with the Expression System 2, and I enjoy recording with it. I've got two young kids, so my studio time often falls during play and/or homework time.

On the rare occasion I do have some quiet studio time, I record with two or three of my (decent) condenser mics plus the pickup. I usually capture several concurrent signals (i.e. from 2 or 3 mics plus the pickup) and then mix them.

Many times, however, using a mic is simply not possible. There is so much ambient noise that the tracks are useless. In those instances, I would like to make the most of my ES2 system and get the best signal possible.

I have a Zoom R16 and three ART Dual MP rack mounted boxes. I have the Dual MPs set up with a few different 12AX7 and 5751 tubes for various mics and instrument combos. I find most of the tubes work well with mics, but only certain tubes are good instrument preamps.

I find I get a pretty clean and decent signal going through a non-High Z channel straight into the R16. But the ART Dual MP does not have a 1/4" input which is non-High Z. Each channel has an XLR input, and a High Z 1/4".

I would like to improve the signal quality when I am going direct with the ES2. I am not really particular about whether it is through the R16, or if the ADMPs are in the chain. I'm just looking for some advice or good ideas to try. Or maybe some experience with a similar setup?

Thanks in advance :-)
 
I have heard good things about Taylor's new acoustic pick ups, not sure what you mean by signal quality. Adjust the tone until it sounds right. Keep the input signal below 75% of volume, you can add your gain back during mixing if required.

EQ post tracking would give you better control of the sound and you may try double tracking to give it a bigger sound.
 
Not sure why you would want to put your ES2 signal through an ART preamp before recording. They would only add color to the sound, which is NOT what you want. Like DM60 says, adjust tone and level on the guitar, do what is needed in the mix to make it sound better, if needed.
 
Thanks very much for the responses. Actually, I am just a little confused by the statement: "Keep the input signal below 75% of volume".

Do you mean that the volume pot on the ES2 should be at 75% of the full turn (or less)? Or do you mean something to do with the LED level meter on the R16 channel?
 
Let us know (and hear) if any of these suggestions improve your results. I've got a Taylor 414ce that I bought new last year. I don't know if it has the same pickup system as yours or not. Nice guitar. The pickup sounds fine playing live, but never gave me what I was looking for recorded. Bottom line, I gave up on the pickup and just record it with a mic. I deal with the same problems as you, in terms of trying to find a quiet time to record. Also, recording acoustic guitar while trying to keep a constant distance from a mic is about as much fun as swimming in a straight jacket, so I don't use the guitar as often as I thought I would.
 
I've got the ES 1.3 on my Taylor, and though I have used it to record a few times, it still has the piezo twang. I'll use it if I just want to lay down an idea, which I'll later use as a scratch track when I mic the guitar. The ES2 will no doubt give a better sound than the 1.3, but it wouldn't be my preferred way to record.
Miking it is always going to sound better, though. Robus's problem in volume-distance is usually supplanted by setting up the mic(s) 9-12" away from the guitar so that slight movements don't change the sound.
 
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mjbphotos said:
I've got the ES 1.3 on my Taylor, and though I have used it to record a few times, it still has the piezo twang. I'll use it if I just want to lay down an idea, which I'll later use as a scratch track when I mic the guitar. The ES2 will no doubt give a better sound than the 1.3, but it wouldn't be my preferred way to record.
Miking it is always going to sound better, though. Robus's problem in volume-distance is usually supplanted by setting up the mic(s) 9-12" away form the guitar so that slight movements don't change the sound.
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As good a Taylor's pickups are, they can't replace a mic. Usually Taylors have a very good acoustic sound, that sound is just hard to get with a pickup.
 
Thanks very much to all for the feedback. As Mike and DM60 say, I have learned that going directly into the R16 is best for the ES2. For the McIntyre and the Dean Markley, however, I do find I can get nice results through the ADMP with certain tube brands and types.

I'd say the main problem I get with the ES2 is that the signal sounds vaguely distorted and/or overcompressed as I play a little harder. I am trying to figure out whether I can do something vis-a-vis the signal chain (or input levels?) to address the issue. When I get the chance to do some A-B testing that I can share, I will post the files here. Thanks again for everyone's help :-)
 
"I'd say the main problem I get with the ES2 is that the signal sounds vaguely distorted and/or overcompressed as I play a little harder."

Probably because "the industry" and punters are wedded to ONE nine volt battery! Basically the electronics is running out of headroom as you dig in IMHO.

If you could up the supply to just 12 volts I bet it would make a big difference. Personally I would go for 18V but I am NOT suggesting you do!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
"I'd say the main problem I get with the ES2 is that the signal sounds vaguely distorted and/or overcompressed as I play a little harder."

Probably because "the industry" and punters are wedded to ONE nine volt battery! Basically the electronics is running out of headroom as you dig in IMHO.

If you could up the supply to just 12 volts I bet it would make a big difference. Personally I would go for 18V but I am NOT suggesting you do!

Dave.
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No, you don't want to fry the Taylor's preamp! Turn down the volume a bit.
 
mjbphotos said:
No, you don't want to fry the Taylor's preamp! Turn down the volume a bit.
Click to expand...

Mike: I DID say NOT to try 18volts! Although I am pretty sure the pre amp would be safe. Certainly 12V should be totally harmless.

The other possibility is if the OP is using an unusually long lead? The pre amp might object to driving high levels into a high capacitance? Most unlikely but easily proved!

Dave.
 
I knew that Dave! Just want to make sure the OP didn't try anything foolish (although you can't fit two 9v batteries into the guitar anyway). Lot of people have speculated how to get rid of the clunky battery power in today's preamps, but short of running a parallel cable to a separate input on the guitar, there's no easy way to do it. Hey, if you can recharge your phone wirelessly, why can't some kind of induction field thing be set up on the end of a guitar strap?

I haven't done anything with the ES2, my ES 1.3 uses a balanced output signal, and when I feed it (thru XLR) to some PA amps (never noticed it with a non-powered mixer), it can easily overpower the input of the amp. Which on some amps, could kick in a compression-like effect or clipping-type distortion.
 
mjbphotos said:
I knew that Dave! Just want to make sure the OP didn't try anything foolish (although you can't fit two 9v batteries into the guitar anyway). Lot of people have speculated how to get rid of the clunky battery power in today's preamps, but short of running a parallel cable to a separate input on the guitar, there's no easy way to do it. Hey, if you can recharge your phone wirelessly, why can't some kind of induction field thing be set up on the end of a guitar strap?

I haven't done anything with the ES2, my ES 1.3 uses a balanced output signal, and when I feed it (thru XLR) to some PA amps (never noticed it with a non-powered mixer), it can easily overpower the input of the amp. Which on some amps, could kick in a compression-like effect or clipping-type distortion.
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Wonder why they don't use Phantom power, not practical?
 
mjbphotos said:
Robus's problem in volume-distance is usually supplanted by setting up the mic(s) 9-12" away from the guitar so that slight movements don't change the sound.
Click to expand...

Thanks, that's what I'm finding too. Or even a bit farther back even with this particular guitar. Its got that "Taylor sound"--bright, not warm like a Martin or my early-80s Ibanez dreadnought. It doesn't like the mic right up close to the strings. I've got a nice room to record acoustic guitar in, but moving gear and setting up down there takes the better part of an hour. For that reason I'm not currently recording acoustics as often as I'd like.
 
DM60 said:
Wonder why they don't use Phantom power, not practical?
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Won't work if you are plugging into any stomp box (you'd need a phantom power or powered DI box first), and "acoustic amps" may or may not have phantom power. Portable battery-powered amps wouldn't have it. Lots of (cheap) PA amps (with integrated mixers) don't have phantom either.

Robus said:
Thanks, that's what I'm finding too. Or even a bit farther back even with this particular guitar. Its got that "Taylor sound"--bright, not warm like a Martin or my early-80s Ibanez dreadnought. It doesn't like the mic right up close to the strings. I've got a nice room to record acoustic guitar in, but moving gear and setting up down there takes the better part of an hour. For that reason I'm not currently recording acoustics as often as I'd like.
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Takes me 5-10 minutes to set up to record acoustic, and part of that is getting my wife to go upstairs and close the door! :D
 
DM60 said:
Wonder why they don't use Phantom power, not practical?
Click to expand...

Because the guitar/guitarist industry is notoriously conservative (small c) and it is very difficult to sell Joe Strummer anything battery powered if he cannot buy a battery from a newsagent. ("You want me to buy TWO!").

"They don't take any regard of the levels pickups can put out. A decent humbucker on a plank can deliver over 4 VOLTS peak to peak (and it is pk-pk that matters here). A piezo is capable of much more especially with the acoustic "assistance of the guitar body.

Even a UNITY gain 9V powered amplifier will clip at that and even that assumes good, rail to rail ICs. Most don't use them but employ the TL0 series OPAMPs or, even worse discrete transistors which are very unlikely to be perfectly "centre of Vss" biased.

Logical "proper" engineering way to do it? External box containing 4 AAs (cheapest, most efficient battery supply) DC-DC converter to give 24V or -12+12V. One incidental advantage? Such a system could also be powered from a USB port.

I bet Orchid Electros could do that for 50quid but they would never sell the buggers!

Dave.
 
There are certainly some 'outboard preamp' systems made for acoustic guitars (D-Tar, for example) for those guitarists who want to minimize the intrusion of as much as possible inside the 'wooden box' of their guitar as well as those who dont' want any holes drilled/punched in the skin for controls.
There was one guy who came to my open mic 2 years ago who was a luthier and brought his own guitars with dual-source in them (mic and pickup), would bring his DTar, hook it onto the mic stand, spend at least 5 minutes fiddling with it before playing. Did it sound any better than a Martin with a fishman in it, or a Taylor with ES? In my opinion - no. I caught him complaining about the 'thin sound' he got from the PA system - hey it was HIS preamp! The PA system was top notch, although we didn't bother with the subs for acoustic nights.
 
mjbphotos said:
There are certainly some 'outboard preamp' systems made for acoustic guitars (D-Tar, for example) for those guitarists who want to minimize the intrusion of as much as possible inside the 'wooden box' of their guitar as well as those who dont' want any holes drilled/punched in the skin for controls.
There was one guy who came to my open mic 2 years ago who was a luthier and brought his own guitars with dual-source in them (mic and pickup), would bring his DTar, hook it onto the mic stand, spend at least 5 minutes fiddling with it before playing. Did it sound any better than a Martin with a fishman in it, or a Taylor with ES? In my opinion - no. I caught him complaining about the 'thin sound' he got from the PA system - hey it was HIS preamp! The PA system was top notch, although we didn't bother with the subs for acoustic nights.
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Ah but Mike, I am talking simply of an outboard power suppy. In fact if we kept to a single 24ish volt supply it could go on the ring of a TRS jack. There is then no reason why the internal pre amp could not be a very good unit? Even have its own 9V battery for less critical applications.

'Twould need a bit of clever FET power switching but nothing reaction propelled vehicle difficulty!

Dave.
 
Would need to make it fool proof! TRS-TRS no phantom, TRS-XLR no phantom, TRS-XLR phantom, TS-TS no phantom.
If you've got to have a 9v battery in there anyway for the times when there is no phantom, what's the point of adding more stuff in the guitar's preamp?
But go ahead and come up with a good way to do it, and sell it to Fishman!
 
mjbphotos said:
Would need to make it fool proof! TRS-TRS no phantom, TRS-XLR no phantom, TRS-XLR phantom, TS-TS no phantom.
If you've got to have a 9v battery in there anyway for the times when there is no phantom, what's the point of adding more stuff in the guitar's preamp?
But go ahead and come up with a good way to do it, and sell it to Fishman!
Click to expand...

NOTHING in the guitar electronics world is "foolproof"! If it had to be we would sell Jack S! Peeps use TRS leads on pedals and wonder WTF they don't switch on. The use light gauge instrument cables to connect a 400W, 4R bass cab then wonder where the smoke is coming from. Fail to put a load on valve heads and destroy valves and worse......

But what needs to be FP? The guitar can exit signal on the tip self powered. The PSU can easily be made S/C proof. There are just some things that piss me off! Low headroom electronics because your average muso won't move past a battery designed for an obsolete transistor radio and bloody "true" bypass!

And believe me! If I was 1/2 the man I was just ten years ago I WOULD be on the case!

Dave.
 
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