Recording a band...Drums first?

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brendandwyer said:
I would say that in modern/pop music, a click is essential if you want to market the song as a possible track for remixing in the club / dj world. Solid tempo might also lend itself well to the post community. But as for a solid rock song by a solid rock band with a competant drummer, i can't see why anyone would feel that a click track is essential.

you answered your own question..."modern/pop music, a click is essential"...

rock music is now considered the same as modern/pop thanks to TRL and other music countdown programs that mix all of the different types of music into one mainstream sellers market for todays teens. everyone in the music business expects the rock bands of today to compete with the next 50 Cent and Kelly Clarkson single/video! sucks, and it's sad, but it's true!
 
I didn't ask a question :)

and i wasn't really attempting to get into the discussion of "modern music sucks because of MTV" thing. My point was, that from a producers standpoint, the decision of whether to have the band record to a click tempo, or not, sort of depends on the options that you'd want for marketing when the song is done. the remixer community relies on a cappellas to be tempo locked, so in that sense, in that application, click tracks are essential

as for the "modern music sucks ...." discussion, i wouldn't even want to start that debate yet again
 
brendandwyer said:
I didn't ask a question :)

and i wasn't really attempting to get into the discussion of "modern music sucks because of MTV" thing. My point was, that from a producers standpoint, the decision of whether to have the band record to a click tempo, or not, sort of depends on the options that you'd want for marketing when the song is done. the remixer community relies on a cappellas to be tempo locked, so in that sense, in that application, click tracks are essential

as for the "modern music sucks ...." discussion, i wouldn't even want to start that debate yet again

lol, i think i miss understood your original post. when you said "i can't see why anyone would feel that a click track is essential" it sounded like a question type of sentence since you said, you "can't see why"...so i was just saying "why". anywayz, it's not that important!

but i never meant to imply that modern music sucks because of MTV...i was just saying that recently i've had people in the music industry tell me that Rock music is to be marketed the same way as Pop music because of countdown shows that mix multiple genre...i.e. fuse, vh1,...etc. not just MTV, i was just using it has a an example. make sense?
 
totally! And i do think it's a shame when what used to be distinct genres are watered down commercially so that any artistic relevance they had becomes lost.

However, it happens and has happened to every genre in music, IMHO
 
brendandwyer said:
I didn't ask a question :)

and i wasn't really attempting to get into the discussion of "modern music sucks because of MTV" thing. My point was, that from a producers standpoint, the decision of whether to have the band record to a click tempo, or not, sort of depends on the options that you'd want for marketing when the song is done. the remixer community relies on a cappellas to be tempo locked, so in that sense, in that application, click tracks are essential

as for the "modern music sucks ...." discussion, i wouldn't even want to start that debate yet again

oh, and by the way, i never said "modern music sucks". don't know where you got that from because it's not in my original post. i think you misunderstood me.

i said, it "sucks, and it's sad, but it's true"... IT, was in reference the situation that Rock has to compete with the same market as Pop/Rap!
 
brendandwyer said:
totally! And i do think it's a shame when what used to be distinct genres are watered down commercially so that any artistic relevance they had becomes lost.

However, it happens and has happened to every genre in music, IMHO

good point, and very true my friend!
 
oh...if I had an HD rig...then I wouldn't have to worry about a click, cause I could go in after the performance and slice/dice/quantize. Damnit...anyone have 15 G's they want to loan me. then I can make records like Metallica :)

In all seriousness though, a click is unnecessary for a hard rock type of band. I've always found the easiest way to track is drums first w/out a click, then the rest of the band.
 
The easiest way toi get your drum tracks down is without a click and let the drummer play to the guitar player. However, I would not normally consider this to be the best. Do you really want to rely on the guitar players tempo? :D

As far as editing and remixing goes, click tracks definately make that easier, but also are not NECESSARY to complete those tasks. Especially in today's "digital" age where everything is already so manipulated and manipulable. The tools we have today are amazing compared to what has typically been available in the past. In fact, I firmly believe that this abundance of "tools" is a big part of the reason that so many things "sound the same" now. 25 years ago music was mixed and tracked with a much smaller and less versatile set of tools. Things were done because they needed to be done. As a result, most product had a little more "uniqueness" to it. Now we all have tools available to us to help us to "emulate" whatever it is we like in some other musical project. As a result things take longer (often times because we have so many tools to try) and often turn out with a degree of similarity. Does this mean that music today sucks? Not a chance. What it means today is that I have 10 times as many musical representations to sort through until find the one that I really like. The plethora of options given to engineers has resulted in a plethora of options for end listeners. In the long run I think this is a good thing. Every once and a while I love getting back to basics and doing a full analog mix on a real analog console. There is still something rewarding about it. It forces me to commit to what I believe and as a result I am happier in many ways with what comes out. However, the full integration between digital and analog is still not complete. In the interest of reliability, recallabillity, and sheer amount of available tools, I continue to do the bulk of my work in the analog realm. Click tracks are very similar. As all of these tools have evolved and become more common in studios, click tracks as well have become more of a daily occurence and in the professional recording industry (for many and maybe even most genre's) have become a tool that is used without giving any real though to it. Personally, as a drummer, I feel more comfortable when there is a click track running if I am recording. Live, I would prefer to not have it. I love having the security of a click track to know that I am holding down the fort. It allows me to feel what I am playing by allowing more of my attention to go towards what I am doing, rather than worrying about tempo. However, I still run across a song every once and a while where I make the decision to shut it off and let it happen. It reminds me that click tracks are tools, and not just something that has to be done. Sometimes I like to slide around a little and the music that I am dictating demands it. I and the rest of the band members understand that the future tracks being laid may be a little tougher to totally lock in as a result, but that in the end it will be well worth the effort. Having worked with a couple of big name producers in the past I can tell you for certain that not as many commercially released are "locked to a click track" as some here might think. Out of three producers just from the top of my head I can think of they have a total of probably 150 platinum albums and many grammy's. There success allows me to take their advice without much worry.
 
I've only read the few opening post but I'll had my two cents here....... I would never put anything before drums. Do a scratch guitar track and use a click track, that way you get all the intro's and breaks and stuff. My drummer refuses to use a drum track and we pay the price each time....everyone else uses a click track........
 
anyone have 15 G's they want to loan me. then I can make records like Metallica

you're fucking kidding me, right?

15k might get you one channel of an SSL board that their albums are mixed on

I would never put anything before drums. Do a scratch guitar track and use a click track, that way you get all the intro's and breaks and stuff.

...or you could have the drummer use stick hits or the hi-hat to count the intros and breaks, then edit them out later
 
Wow. I think that if someone claims that you aren't a REAL musician unless you can play to a click, then I'd have to hold everything they say suspect. Crossing genres and history, there are plenty of icons in music that never played to a click.

I seriously doubt that you could sit down with your metronone and record collection and find unwavering tempo throughout.

As a fatter of mact, back in the 80s, there were magazine articles in drummer mags about varying tempo by a beat here and there to add a more human feel to programmed drum tracks.

If you can play to a click or a track or redo a drum track after the fact, that is a handy skill to have. But there are different styles of drummers and music that are much better represented when the musicians are left free to wander a bit.
 
I always record to a metronome. I'd never do it any other way. I suppose if playing sloppy and not learning to play in time is of interest to you, then go right ahead without it. Shit, just about every band in my rehearsal building uses a metronome at times to work out timing issues. I think the benefits of recording in time far outweigh any "feel" issues that might arise from playing in time. :eek:
 
i think this discussion would benefit from some distinction in terminology, each in two parts. i qualify the below statements by mentioning that i understand and agree that they are, like almost everything, my humble opinion. here we go:

distinction one: playing in time verus playing mechanically

a lot of posts in this thread use the term 'in time' without clarifying what they mean. when i think of 'in time' i don't necessarily think of a metronome--i think of keeping a consistent space between beats of a given length from measure to measure. My personal definition of 'in time' allows for subtle expansion and contraction of the duration of a beat over the course of a song but that remains internally consistent--beats are not dropped or suddenly put half-out. conversely, playing 'mechanically' is how i'd describe playing according to a perfectly consistent rhythm, usually achieved by playing to a metronome or using a highly skilled musician and the artistic decision of rhythmic consistency at the front of the recording process.

both have their place--as one poster mentioned earlier, you can't cut-and-paste or dramatically remix as well or sometimes at all with a rhythm section that's less than perfect. but, on the flip side, if the style of music depends on a degree of looseness, a metronome could be a detriment. there seems to be some contention about this last point, but i'll talk about that more next.

distinction two: playing with rhythmic dynamics (or feeling) verus playing sloppily

playing sloppily is of course bad, as the word connotates. but dramatically changing the tempo is not necessarily bad, and the more advanced the compostition is rhythmically, the less useful a metronome becomes. most of my experience with rhythmically dynamic music has been in classical and jazz environments. these musical traditions both depend heavily on both sudden and gradual shifts in tempo and time signature, and often, in their more advanced forms, travel the course of several tempos and time signatures over the course of one piece. you could probably play jazz or classical with a metronome, and/or you could work out the shifts and changes to a movement in Mahler's 3rd symphony and punch them into a computer for an orchestra to play along to, but should you? there is a reason that conductors are still in business.

the situation is very different with most aspiring rock & pop bands. most of the material is not as rhythmically complicated, and often the musicians are not as skilled as they should be. this makes the job of the sound engineer difficult. you need to determine who in the band is most eligible to the role of conductor, or if no one is qualified, or if the band wants to sound programmed rather than conducted. and sounding programmed is not necessarily bad, mind you, just different.

usually the drummer is the conductor, unless they either can't play in time (a la distinction one) or can't keep their rhythmic dynamics straight (don't know where to change without the music playing over the top). yes, both of these are problems. unless the band improvizes, i agree that the drummer should be good enough to know where the changes are, and if there aren't any changes, that makes inability to play the song through from start to finish that much more inexcusable. however, the recording studio is not a church--the musicians aren't paying to feel guilty.

as far as my feelings about what order to record instruments in, having recorded with a few bands as a home-studio engineer, as a musician and as both at the same time, these are my observations. none original, but all relevant:

it's the sound engineer's job to get the best he can out of the performers so that his work looks good, and if the tactic you're using isn't working, you need to change it. you need to identify how the band works, and build a recording process around it that suits them.

the ideal situation (i feel) would be to record everyone at once, saving only key instruments and usually vocals for overdubbing--and hopefully having a scratch track of these instruments as well. this has always been my best experience on both sides of the board. however, it requires either a studio set up to accomodate isolating the instruments but letting everyone still hear each other (i.e, drum room, iso booths for amps or musicians, and headphones of good quality and durability). and the band will probably like to be able to see each other, which means any iso booths need to have windows. you need a lot of mics or inputs, and you need to get everyone's sound 'right' before recording. and even if everything is isolated, you still may have to do many takes to get a 'good' one, overdubs aside.

since this is typically not a setup available to most beginner or home-studio recordists, the other options are either recording everything live--which is great if you and the band can pull it off, but it usually means a lot of takes and a lot of setup--or working track-at-a-time. if you're working track-at-a-time, the metronome is a tool that you can use if it fits the music and if it fits the musicians. some will want it, some won't. i fully agree with everyone who says that a highly skilled musician should be able to play to a click. but an amazing musician should be able to play to a click and decide that he either doesn't need to or doesn't want to based on the material.

the click track dilemma has a psychological impact on the band; many musicians rely more on hearing each other than they do on rote or physical memory of timing, inflection, dynamics or structural changes. in particular, many drummers may feel--perhaps wrongly--that click tracks are equivalent to castration. if the drummer is not comfortable with playing to a metronome, regardless of whether he should be, the result is going to be a lackluster performance. in that case, work out whoever has the best timing and what parts of the song are the most essential for everyone else to play to, and work in that order. nine times out of ten it will still be the drummer first, but you have to work on a case-by-case scenario.

to return this thread to what it started with--you can only do what you can do. if the band sucks, they suck. but, unless you suck, the band should still leave feeling like they had the best recording experience of their life, and regardless of if you think their music is crap, you still want them to leave holding what they think is the best recording they've ever done. and to do that you have to work with and around them, not against them.
 
yeah i record drums and guitar first... i put the amp in my laundry room .. which is the best sounding room in the house and then the drummer and guitarist wear headphones so they can both keep time

then we lay the bass down
 
remarks by osus

Well , I think that closes the book on that discussion. I really liked the line, a "studio is not a church where musicians pay to feel guilty".

Well said.
 
I record drums to a click track first.
Check out my results at http://www.myspace.com/sorryaboutthecatfight
Obviously, the drum-first method wasn't a failure.

If the drummer is slightly offbeat in a live show, people won't notice as well as if every time you get to the part at 3:21 on track 04, you can't help but remember the bad fill. I think it's critical you stay to your pattern one an album. I've never heard of a band accepting off-time beats for "emotion" or "feel."

I remember for one of our songs, we had to transition about a 150bpm beat into a 185bpm beat, gradually. For that, we were unable to use a metronome, and just kept re-recording the transition. So while I think metronomes are a good tool to learn to use often, it's definitely not useful in all situations.

Ultimately, whatever gets the best performance out of each band member is what's important. Drummer played first with click track, I played bass with click track and drums, and guitarist played first with just a click track, then guitar 2 with click and guitar 1. Vocals were with all instruments.

I don't judge people on what they need to sound awesome!
 
new idea for me!

I just want to say how enlightening this topic is for me.

I've never used a click track. Well, that's not really true--I've just never used a metronome/perfect click track. I've actually laid out a click track w/the drummer beating sticks together for the length of a song, just as a reference for rests.

Now I see the advantage of a click track:

My God, I was so in the dark believing that I had to have the drums down first as a foundation! I thought this because I imagined that even the world's best drummer would have at least some minor fluctuations in tempo. Perhaps this is true, but w/a click track now he's got no excuses!

A click track would let me take a 4-track on the road, let me do any instument I have available at the time, and then add drums whenever I get home and have the time to mic everything up!

And to think that I couldn't work on anything until I have the drums (foundation) set.

Thank you so much.
 
when I record with my band at my house, we always sit down and work out the song we were doing measure by measure, beat by beat and wrote everything down as intro, verse, chorus, outro etc and how many measures each. Then recorded a guitar scratch track and decided what tempos we wanted for for each part(our music has lots of changes, breakdowns etc.) After that my brother built a click using all the info and then we record drums to a click. That whole process usually takes us about half an hour. I never used a metronome before I started recording and can honestly say it has made me a way better player. We have gone through 4-5 drummers in the past 2 years but they kept giving up because a-they couldn't play in time and b-they couldn't keep up with the speed we play and always gassed out halfway throught the song. We didn't have a drummer at times so we just kept recording using nothing but the click. OUr new drummer who is very good, but had never played to a metronome and didn't have the endurance to play our songs in time found that out the first time we went to record our new songs.

Luckily for us he is somewhat a perfectionist and was rather embarresed that he wasn't nailing his parts live or recording. HE would be close but not perfect. We let him got at it with the click for weeks and he just practiced away along with the metronome, now he has it down, his stamina is way better, his speed has improved on his fills. My point is we became a way better band and individual musicians by using a click, and not giving up till everyone in the band was good at playing along to one. I thought that everyone who recorded anywhere used a click, drums first etc. But now I see that is not true. I think I will stick with using the click for recording my band, but my brother and I are going to be recording a couple local bands soon for demo's(we are doing it free just to keep learning) and it's good to know that a click isn't the be all and end all if the band can't do it, but as long as we capture good sounding performance is all that matters. This is a good thread. Damn I love this site!!!!!
 
I'm no expert, but

I freaking hate the sound of metronomes - I don't want to keep time to water dripping from the faucet for four minutes.

I figure out what the time signature is with Logic's built in metronome and then I use a drum loop from Apple or Beta Monkey to lay down a scratch guitar track. I find I can keep time WAY better to an actual drum track as opposed to a metronome.

Then I lay down a scratch vocal on top of the scratch guitar.

I'll record bass and drums at the same time to the scratch, then rhythm guitar, lead guitar, vocs and backing vocs...in that order (sometimes I'll record a fart and throw it in during the focal point of a chorus for a laugh...post joint, of course).

That said, if I had a real drum room and complete isolation, I would record live in a heartbeat...

The idea that there is a "right way" is retarded. There are way too many unknowns, considerations and limitations with any given project for anyone to say, "this is the way you have to do it".

I mean, when your girl says to you, "Hey, I want to do it reverse cowgirl on the kitchen counter." you're not going to say "Uh-uh, the only way I do it is missionary, on the bed, with the lights out" right?

Trying new things is good, even if it turns out bad; at least you'll know not to do it again.
 
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