Recording a band...Drums first?

  • Thread starter Thread starter jmxdrummer
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one thing about click tracks for starters: it's absolutely impossible to record certain types of music to a click. there's a lot of stuff out there that just has way too many stops/starts/breaks and TEMPO CHANGES for a click to be effective. listen to a dillinger escape plan album, and tell me if you think those guys used a click track when recording. also, do you think most rock bands practice and write to a click track? get real.

2nd, like people here were saying, it's often common practice to record the drums, then overdub the rest of it over the top. the 1st time i entered a studio to record an album for a band i was playing guitar in(and bass on the recordings), we recorded drums along with a guitar scratch track, then guitars, then bass/vox. then i took some college recording classes after that, and guess what? if there was a project where it wasn't feasible to record everyone at once(which you usually could, since the school has a large, tuned studio, along with a drum room and iso room), we would put down the drums and maybe guitars or bass, then overdub the rest of it

in my own studio, the procedure(for rock bands) is the same...i have a single small room for tracking, along with a bedroom that's been converted to my control room, so the process usually goes like so: the drummer sets up in the room, i mic him up, set levels, etc....then i run a DI signal of the guitar(s)/bass into my DAW, load some generic preset in amplitube, then when everyone's ready, i hit record. sometimes i keep the DI'd bass track in there if it was a good performance and the band likes the way it sounds - if not, we do a few more takes of the DI or mic up a cab if that's what they prefer. then i set up and mic the amps, and overdub the guitars. then vocals.

in all honesty, i don't know why you would do things any other way, unless you have enough space to mic everyone at once or you're doing something with a very simple feel/timing/whatever. the only time i could see myself using a click while recording is if i have someone doing a simple song that has the same tempo all the way through, which seems to be pretty rare nowadays.
 
Ironklad Audio said:
one thing about click tracks for starters: it's absolutely impossible to record certain types of music to a click. there's a lot of stuff out there that just has way too many stops/starts/breaks and TEMPO CHANGES for a click to be effective. .
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isn't that what a tempo track is for?...I always make a beat in ableton live and use that for my click.
 
yea, but i've found that a lot of bands don't even know when their breaks occur - at least not in the sense where they can say "yea, the song is in 4/4 for 16 measure @ 90bpm, then there's a 2 second break, then it goes into 6/8 @ 140bpm for 12 measures, and back into...blahblahblah". the time required to figure all that out and then program it i feel far outweighs the time it takes to have the drummer play the song 10 times until he gets it right. and even if you use a click, you only need the drummer to play to it, not the entire goddamned band...if the drummer's time is on, then everyone just does their thing to that, and all is good.

i was trying to work through this exact problem the other day with a drummer who needed to have guitars recorded with or before his drums...the guitarist knew the song better than the drummer, and the guitarist wasn't there. the guy couldn't tell me what the tempo was, or even remember where the breaks occured, so i told him to come back whenever their guitarist resurfaced
 
Wow. I've recorded with a click and with a drum machine and with a scratch guitar track, etc. I think that the most musical performances come from recording the band together with the intent of scrapping all but the drums.

Alot of drummers play differently when they are playing to an external clock. I'm not talking tempo. I'm talking inspirato. Like they are better drummers when you let them be drummers, but play like pussies when they have to play to a track.

After you get the drummer's track down, you can go redo the bass and guitars and vocals because they are used to playing with the external clock (their normal drummer).

I figure if the band is solid a click is unnecessary. Why would anyone insist on a click track if the band can keep a reasonable tempo naturally? Are the click advocates of the impression that the vast majority of bands they work with can't keep a tempo, or is it some kind of enhanced sense that you have that can detect even the tiniest variation?
 
cephus said:
Wow. I've recorded with a click and with a drum machine and with a scratch guitar track, etc. I think that the most musical performances come from recording the band together with the intent of scrapping all but the drums.

Alot of drummers play differently when they are playing to an external clock. I'm not talking tempo. I'm talking inspirato. Like they are better drummers when you let them be drummers, but play like pussies when they have to play to a track.

After you get the drummer's track down, you can go redo the bass and guitars and vocals because they are used to playing with the external clock (their normal drummer).

I figure if the band is solid a click is unnecessary. Why would anyone insist on a click track if the band can keep a reasonable tempo naturally? Are the click advocates of the impression that the vast majority of bands they work with can't keep a tempo, or is it some kind of enhanced sense that you have that can detect even the tiniest variation?
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good points though C....I'm probably one those drummers that plays like a pussy when using a click.
 
exactly.

now...if the drummer can't play in time, whether to a click or not, you're just plain fucked
 
jmxdrummer said:
I Got It Drums First. Im Going To Lay Low For Awhile. Im Offending Everyone, Im Too Angry To Be Posting Anything. It Also Doesnt Help That My Wife Is In The Hospital, So Iam Extremely Explosive. Once Again I Applogized , If Any One Cares.
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So I'm assuming that capatalizing every word in a paragraph is your way of displaying anger. Just messing with you man. Listen I know we're getting on your ass pretty hardcore here, don't take it personally, none of us know you and I for one won't go so far as to call you an asshole. What you do need to do is be more tolerant of the talent that's coming in your studio. Hopefully you'll get a chance to record tons of bands, but 90% of them you probably won't like or will just plain suck, that you'll have to deal with. Also just be aware of a bands needs, that will get you pretty far, because you're making the bands feel comfortable in an enviroment that isn't familiar to them. I've recorded 20 some odd bands so far and most love my studio, not for the sound, but for the way I treat them and usually them being relaxed and comfortable leads to much better recordings. Oh yeah and if you don't want them using your stuff then don't let them, I however believe that if I have something that will make the band sound better then I want them to use it, makes me sound better. I've never turned anyone down that wanted to use my Tama's or my Mesa Boogie. Seriously if you need to vent go to the cave, different atmosphere there for sure.
 
beezelbubba said:
Oh fuck them!Tell 'em to pound sand up their asses!
If you are angry,come to the Dragon Cave!You'll be among angry friends!
Come to me,my son!
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:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :eek:
 
I Like using a click for a nice acoustic song or a song that is goign to be heard by many many people. Small bands don't need a click, most are young and can not follow a click. Bottom line...click isn't that hard to get used to. If you practice with one you will be better at your instrument for it. Don't get mad at bands that can't use click.
 
A drummer that can't play to a click hasn't accomplished the most important part of a drummer's job. Keeping time.

I don't care what kind of music you're talking about, if you can't follow a loud click or beat in yor headphones, you have no business laying down tracks in a studio. I'm not saying you always have to use one, but if you're not capable of keep time with one, you're not going to be able to keep time without one.

And don't give me this "it takes away the feel" crap. If it takes away your feel, you haven't practiced enough.
 
I don't know how I did it, but I put that last post in the wrong thread...I'll copy and paste, so don't mind the double post if you see it.
 
Man... 99% of the time I NEVER use a click track whether it be by myself, or with a 2-5 piece band. Unless the tempo is all over the place I just don't do it. I would almost say a TRUE musician doesn't need a metronome (halfway joking).

Rory
 
yea a click track does make editing way easier. Here's what I think everyone should do when recording a band.

1. Record the drums to a click track. Yea, a click track. What happens when the drummer isn't playing? Is the rest of the band just supposed to guess when to come back in? No. Keep in mind that this requires a drummer who can recognize a tempo and stick to it. This truly seperates people pretending to play drums and people who can play drums. So, play with a metronome, kids. It will only help you.

2. Record bass. Enough said. The drums are already laid down and the click track is there for the bassist when the drummer isn't playing. Simple.

3. Record rhythm guitar.

4. Record lead/keys.

5. Record vocals.


Easy enough. Oh and I saw above where someone said "a drummer can't play with energy when he is sitting alone in a room with a click track". Well I have a relatively simple response to this: Yes they can. How do you think the pros do it? If they want to put energy into a recording, they do it. They don't need their friends dancing around them like clowns to make them hit their drums harder. By having people in the room, you would have sound interference all over the place.
 
RAMI said:
A drummer that can't play to a click hasn't accomplished the most important part of a drummer's job. Keeping time.

I don't care what kind of music you're talking about, if you can't follow a loud click or beat in yor headphones, you have no business laying down tracks in a studio. I'm not saying you always have to use one, but if you're not capable of keep time with one, you're not going to be able to keep time without one.

And don't give me this "it takes away the feel" crap. If it takes away your feel, you haven't practiced enough.
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Amen. Drumming to a click seemed really easy for me, I never understood why people always complain about it. And, I dont think Ive never NOT recorded drums first. It would just be....wrong.
 
I record projects to a click whenever possible. However, I will NEVER let a click get in the way of a good feelign. SOmetimes a band will stray from the click. If they do not get back on pretty quickly I just shut the click off for the rest of that particular song. Then, we sit and listen to it and decide whether or nto the feel and performance outweighs any of the tempo issues (which can often be pretty minor in the big picture). I have also gotten very good at learning how to count breaks for bands when there is no click present.

As far as getting drums down first.... I find that I really like doing final drum tracks last. Often times I start with a whole band playing live to a click. Then we go back and redo bass, then guitars, then vocals, then all auxilliary tracks and backings etc.. After that I let the drummer take home a mix. He can then decide which if any songs he wants to retake (assuming it was one WITH a click). The advantge of this is that he/she gets to focus on what they are playing, and not having to worry about holding the band together. The band at this point IS together. It also helps to get rid of those overplayed passages, and to really find the right fills and grooves. This however all depends on whether or not the drummer is steady enough and confident enough to do it this way. One thing I have learned though. Regardless of how you plan on running things, ALWAYS have as many of your instruments (drums, bass, guitars etc...) as tuned up and ready to go as possible. Do your best to pretend the track was for real and it was going to be your only take. This way, even if it was supposed to be a reference track, if the musician absolutely kills it, you can keep it without any major sacrifices. I also never fully delete old takes until an album is back from press. I can not tell you how many times in the tape days we wished we had an old take that we thought we could do better, but after a while realized it was the one;) This is why I have several terrabytes of drives at my studio:D
 
I'll admit my best experience recording was with a band who's drummer only needed the click and nothing else. He was spot on and it made it a breeze to edit.
 
lots of good points!!!

Ironklad Audio said:
one thing about click tracks for starters: it's absolutely impossible to record certain types of music to a click. there's a lot of stuff out there that just has way too many stops/starts/breaks and TEMPO CHANGES for a click to be effective. listen to a dillinger escape plan album, and tell me if you think those guys used a click track when recording. also, do you think most rock bands practice and write to a click track? get real.
Click to expand...

actually, i know one of the guys in that band and i can tell you that the guitar player gives music lessons, can play with a click, same goes for all of the members, and all of those guys have studied theory and do record their tracks the same way that every other signed hardcore/metal band does, which is WITH A CLICK!!!

brandrum said:
doesn't a click make any editing that might need to be done easier?
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ding ding ding ding ding, that's the correct response...now tell him what he's won! ok, all joking aside...all of the cds that people buy at Best Buy are recorded this way and editing is one of the many reasons why.

rory said:
Man... 99% of the time I NEVER use a click track whether it be by myself, or with a 2-5 piece band. Unless the tempo is all over the place I just don't do it. I would almost say a TRUE musician doesn't need a metronome (halfway joking).

Rory
Click to expand...

i hope you're not just halfway joking and 100% joking, because 99% of the time that i have been in a major studio with a major label band, i've never ever met a "TRUE musician" that didn't need a metronome! "TRUE musicians" (as you put it) play better to a click than amatuer musicians or pros with no click!


jonnyc said:
What you do need to do is be more tolerant of the talent that's coming in your studio. Hopefully you'll get a chance to record tons of bands, but 90% of them you probably won't like or will just plain suck, that you'll have to deal with. Also just be aware of a bands needs, that will get you pretty far, because you're making the bands feel comfortable in an enviroment that isn't familiar to them. Seriously if you need to vent go to the cave, different atmosphere there for sure.
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that is some of the best advice for anyone recording local artist/bands in a home studio or project studio. i completely agree 100%!!!

Shout It Out said:
Small bands don't need a click, most are young and can not follow a click. Bottom line...click isn't that hard to get used to. If you practice with one you will be better at your instrument for it. Don't get mad at bands that can't use click.
Click to expand...

well said!!!
 
I would say that in modern/pop music, a click is essential if you want to market the song as a possible track for remixing in the club / dj world. Solid tempo might also lend itself well to the post community. But as for a solid rock song by a solid rock band with a competant drummer, i can't see why anyone would feel that a click track is essential.
 
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