Solved Record to your PC or a Digital Recorder

[SilverSurfer]

What is the best way to record? On a recorder or using a PC?

I have a Yamaha AW16G and I can use that or I can sell it and do this on my PC. The question is, which is better?

What setup on the PC would be better and how much would it cost me? And what is FIREWIRE?!

 

[Bartman]

A matter of opinion

Today 11:01
SilverSurfer What is the best way to record? On a recorder or using a PC?

I have a Yamaha AW16G and I can use that or I can sell it and do this on my PC. The question is, which is better?

What setup on the PC would be better and how much would it cost me? And what is FIREWIRE?!

Hey Surfer,

I also have a Yamaha AW16G. My preference is to track with the "G", then export tracks to Adobe Audition for mixing/effecting. I'm not sure if anyone can give you a better or worse answer. The answer is a matter of opinion and preference. I like a more traditional control surface/interface for tracking but feel very comfortable mixing in a PC environment.

Do a search on PC DAW set-ups. I'm sure you will find a number of effective and economical configurations and software options.

I'll let one of the PC experts answer your Firewire questions.

 

[Anthony]

I have a Yamaha AW16G

For thing it would help us if you mentioned you present PC/Mac setup (CPU/HD?)

How many track do you need, what sort of processing power do you have on you mind?

Although on computer you will get more flexible and powerful editing, many users are advocates of exact machines like your Yamaha. So this Yamaha could be all you need and supported with your PC/MAC it could be even more fruitful synergy.

There is no such thing as best way to record for all people, There is just best way to record for right purpose and level of sophistication this task requires, one you failed to mention here

For example, even if I could join together my AMD64 and G5 power in one machine for live multitrack recording I would rather use my Fostex or Otari machines then any computer software setup. For live, you have only once chance to capture the source. If you fail it is gone for good.

No matter how powerful computer, it is still not as reliable as dedicated one purpose hardware machine for exact dedicated task.

In your case, it is pity your Yamaha has no SCSI interface so you could use more faster and reliable drives then those 2.5" you have inside your machine.

Nevertheless, this is adequate for simultaneous recording of 8 channels because Yamaha optimized both drive and interface just for this task. (+ you can playback all 16 channels)

If you have good PC/Mac setup, you can only benefit for this Yamaha by this way using its processing power and this way you could ease up your computer for fine tune of every track because this way you would have pretty extend resources for both editing and recording.

This I mention to just give you some idea.

I know equall number of people (for their particular operation and need) who would say that either Yamaha alone is enough and either (provided with decent CPU and strength of associated memory and drives) PC/Mac alone is fine.

I would always leave hardware machine around, my experience thought me to think that way, but this is just my opinion and someone might consider this approach wrong.

It is up to you to decide

As for Fireware, let me ease myself for not going even more extensively into this topic by giving you this link to familiarize yourself with this promising interface : http://www.firewire-1394.com/what_is_firewire.htm

 

[SilverSurfer]

Thanks for the info. I really like the Yamaha as it's easy to work with and I can use my compressors and preamps to really get pro-sounding recordings. What I am tracking will just be a "one man band". Nothing really complicated as I feel the more simple music is, the better it is. Too much music today is packed with junk!

My PC is a really fast one I have an AMD 3000+XP processor and 1 gig of ram. ASUS motherboard. 300 gigs of storage space. I just don't have any recording sound cards and all I have is cakewalk 9. But the Adobe software above intrigues me. If it's good, I'll see if I can get a copy of that.

Really, the most my music will ever have is:

Guitars
Bass
Drums
Keys
Vocals/Vocal Layers.

I can do everything I need with the 16G, I just wanted to know if I was missing out on something by not recording with my PC.

Appreciate it, gang!

 

[manning1]

surfer. with respect , not using that great pc you have is a sad waste.
i prefer pc recording due to flexibilty. but it might not be for you.
i'll put a plug in for software that i own bought by my dear wife and have turned lots of folks onto.
it will even run with your on board sound.
demo powertracks from pgmusic.com. 48 tracks for 49 bucks.
there is nothing to compare for features. if your open minded and try it on that great amd system of yours (i'm an amd fan !) , i think youll be very suprised. even if you dont use it for its multitracking features.
just the audio and midi editing features alone are worth the small price.
dont belive me ? just try the demo. but be prepared to really spend some time with it to understand its depth of features. just the range of built in fx
are amazing. if you have any Q's on usage/tricks just ask.
peace.

 

[tedluk]

SilverSurfer-

Ahhhh, my favorite subject!

If Manning1 was truly open-minded, he would tell you that the BEST method is a hybrid system that contains both a hardware system (could be analog or an All-In-One) and a DAW.

Set up properly as Bartman and Anthony suggested, you can track in the All-In-One and use your computer for editing and all kinds of other things, including MIDI tracks in a sequencer. This method also frees your CPU for running softsynths and/or effects. Of course, you would also have the option of recording in the computer and transfering tracks into your AW16G, although with that unit, the process is going to be more tedious. I have an AW2816, but I'll be selling it soon because I bought what a lot of people feel is the best All-In-One out there, the Akai DPS24. With it and the optional ADAT board and the right soundcard, you can transfer 24 tracks digitally. Some guys are even doing it in real time- flying tracks into their computers to use VST and DX effects and back into the DPS! There is some latency, but for many effects, it's small enough to deal with.

The knock on AIO systems always is that they aren't upgradable. To a large extent that's true, but that also means you aren't constantly spending money and potentially introducing problems into your rig. With a unit like the DPS24, you get great pres, 24bit, 96K recording and a highly flexible mixing desk. It can also be used to control the mixer in your sequencer of choice (assuming it can be controlled via MIDI).

The best of both worlds!

Ted

 

[SilverSurfer]

Ted, I like your answer. How much, if you don't mind me asking, is the DPS24?

 

[manning1]

ted. you are entitled to your position.
but i respectfully disagree. in fact on another forum you should read what people are saying about these standalones.(the screens ? the editing ? the button pushing ? . please tell the whole story.)
in fact with the advent of ever faster pc's. these standalones will become obsolete. JUST MY OPINION. and then when they are obsolete try getting service....manufacturers of standalones are legendary in not offering upgrades when new models come out. they want the poor musician to keep on buying a new standalone. at least i can upgrade a pc with little cost.
peace.

 

[warble]

An option I will soon embark on is an Alesis HD24 to track on, then mixing, etc. on my DAW. I like this because if I need to track somewhere else (live, etc). I can bring the thing with me. It's not loaded with tracks, but I think I can manage with 24. Standalones are not quickly becoming obsolete, and that's my opinion. I had a Roland VS-1680 for awhile and it worked very well for my needs. You can still get a relatively powerful standalone solution which will come in handy for live/location work. Just my 1 cent.

 

[tedluk]

ted. you are entitled to your position.
but i respectfully disagree. in fact on another forum you should read what people are saying about these standalones.(the screens ? the editing ? the button pushing ? . please tell the whole story.)
in fact with the advent of ever faster pc's. these standalones will become obsolete. JUST MY OPINION. and then when they are obsolete try getting service....manufacturers of standalones are legendary in not offering upgrades when new models come out. they want the poor musician to keep on buying a new standalone. at least i can upgrade a pc with little cost.
peace.

And you are entitled to yours as well. However, I actually know what I'm talking about! Truthfully, I own both (SONAR 3 PE and both a DPS24 and an AW2816), so, as a close-minded advocate of PC recording only, you really don't know anything about the screen, editing or button pushing (?? are these people with sensitive fingers with whom you are conversing?) on a unit such as the DPS24. It is YOU who would do well to learn more about this unit before you speak.

This argument about obsolescence has its merits, however you can't simply lump all the units together. AKAI has shown that they are supportive of the DPS24 and have offered frequent and significant upgrades to the OS and there are additional interface cards that are going to be coming out including either a firewire or USB2.

I would disagree that you can upgrade a computer at little cost. PCs require OS upgrades and processor upgrades and motherboard upgrades and memory upgrades and hard drive and video card and soundcard upgrades and all of these are necessitated by software upgrades and on and on it goes. These, though perhaps not expensive each on their own, add up to significant outlays of cash on an ongoing basis. Maintaining a computer is like being eaten by pirahnas. And we haven't even touched on the issue of keeping it all working. Every addition of software and hardware has the potential and frequently, the liklihood of causing a conflict. A standalone unit, OTOH, usually requires no additional outlay and the OS's are generally much more stable.

To specifically address your quibbles-

The DPS24 has an excellent screen which clearly shows a great deal of information. They also provide their AK.SYS software which allows you to view and edit on an attached computer.

The editing is fast, simple and intuitive and every user I've spoken to feels it is far superior to a computer in "ease of use". Of course, if you want to get into extremely detailed editing, there is no reason you can't dump your tracks into your PC for additional work (best of both worlds, remember?). And, if I can digress for a moment, that "best of both worlds" is the real point. With the ability to dump tracks into your computer for editing and additional processing, this setup allows you to accomplish anything you could wish.

I'm really not sure what the problem is regarding button pushing. I suppose you're referring to having to do a lot of it? I think this is simply an issue of the various OS's on different units and people's personal working style. Some people find doing things in SONAR difficult and Cubase simpler and vice versa. I didn't like the AW2816 OS. I thought it was confusing and unintuitive, but I got used to it, sort of. The DPS24 has a much more user-friendly OS and it's really fast to work with. This is a fact that many people who have moved over from Roland confirm repeatedly.

What I don't understand about your dogmatic approach is that I'm not rejecting DAW recording in any way. I have one and I use it and I like it. It's a perfectly valid approach to recording. But I, and many others, like a physical interface, knobs, faders, jog wheel, etc. Of course, you can add one to your PC, but for not much more money (I got a used DPS24 for $1700.00), you can get a unit such as the DPS24 which will perform the same function, plus you get 12 top-notch mic pre's and a full-function digital recorder to boot!

There is nothing wrong with your approach and I understand that you are very much interested in helping people to not spend more than they need to. That's a laudible goal. If the original poster had asked ,"How can I get into recording without going bankrupt?", your answer would be spot-on. But, that wasn't the question. There's no question in my mind that having both a DAW and an AIO unit offers a great deal more power than either one alone.

Ted

 

[manning1]

ted. did you read teachers post yesterday ?
and the great performance figures he is getting with an amd 64 ?

if akai are indeed committed to HELPING the user base by affordable upgrades then that certainly is a step in the right direction.
but (and ive studied this in depth) ive seen people go through numerous
standalones and blow through 25k in the process. in the same time frame ive spent about 2k. its the same old game done by the synth manufacturers.
change a few chips and resell the stuff all over again.
i'm not saying the pc is without issues. but every platform has issues.
including 2 inch multitracks.

 

[tedluk]

Ted, I like your answer. How much, if you don't mind me asking, is the DPS24?

Currently, they are very difficult to find. Akai is now being distributed by Numark here in the US. They were going to release a new version a couple of months ago which was identical except for a color change, but it's been delayed several times, apparently because they are considering making some changes to it. They have released a small number of the old style units to fill the void, but the supply is very limited. Someone posted on the DPS24 forum that the former authorized service company had a few available. You can reach them at www.emusic.com. They aren't showing any on their inventory list, but I don't know if it's up to date. I bought mine on E-bay for $1700.00. You will see them selling used for somewhere between that and $2000.00. New, when you can get one, they go for $2700.00-$2800.00.

I did a lot of research before I bought this unit. Originally, I wanted one, but felt it was out of my budget, after struggling with the AW2816 for a while, I finally decided to get one anyway. I'm glad I did for a number of reasons. First, the DPS24 has 24 analog inputs arranged in two banks of 12. You can select either input on each channel. This means I can have all my gear connected directly without doing a lot of repatching. I have no way of comparing with the Roland gear, but I haven't seen anyone who has compared the DPS with the VS series who doesn't think the DPS24 is FAR superior sonically. Most users feel the pre's are VERY good. There are 4 inserts which can be routed to any channel, directly to the ADC bypassing the internal pres if you want to use outboard pre's or effects. Another MAJOR reason I chose the Akai is because of their user forum. Without a doubt, these are the best, most helpful, generous, calm (no one ever seems to get flamed) user group I have ever found. They will answer any question, quickly and accurately and, frequently if someone is having a problem, they will even give you their phone number so you can speak directly to them. Also, Sean from Akai is a frequent contributor so you can get information and assistance from them as well. If you are seriously considering the DPS24, I suggest you check it out HERE Manning1, you should take a look there too. Maybe you'll find a new respect for AIO's!

Ted

 

[tedluk]

ted. did you read teachers post yesterday ?
and the great performance figures he is getting with an amd 64 ?

if akai are indeed committed to HELPING the user base by affordable upgrades then that certainly is a step in the right direction.
but (and ive studied this in depth) ive seen people go through numerous
standalones and blow through 25k in the process. in the same time frame ive spent about 2k. its the same old game done by the synth manufacturers.
change a few chips and resell the stuff all over again.
i'm not saying the pc is without issues. but every platform has issues.
including 2 inch multitracks.

I'm not denying that today's computers are amazingly powerful. I'm sure you can run a massive number of tracks on a fast computer. Frankly, it's not the hardware that's at issue these days, well, not directly. What I see happening, time and again, is that software manufacturer's release upgrades which inevitably require more power from your system so you are forced to upgrade your computer and that usually means a new mobo, processor, memory and sometimes a case, hard drive, etc. You get all of this and manage to get it working, configure your drivers, tweak the OS, etc, etc. All is well and good for a while and then someone releases a new softsynth you want and now your 6 month old awesome DAW is no longer up to the task and here we go again.

I find it hard to believe that you have only spent $2000.00 on your computer unless it's out of date. If it's not, then I'll bet you're underestimating how much you've really plowed into it. It's easy to do since you often buy components here and there. Think about it. How many memory sticks, hard drives, CD-RW's, DVD, cases, MOBOs, soundcards, CPUs, or complete systems have you REALLY bought in the last two years? I'm lucky to keep a computer for 6-8 months, a year tops.

I also find it hard to believe that you know people who have spent $25000.00 on AIO's. I'd say that's almost impossible. Even if you bought 10 of them, you'd still not approach that. Since you no doubt would sell the old ones as you purchased new, you'd get some money back.

The only valid knock I can see on AIO's is that it's certainly possible for technology to pass them by. Higher sampling rates are one example of that potential. It remains to be seen whether widespread adoption of 96K or 192K will occur. I kind of doubt it. For 99.99% of us, there is just no point, at present, to work at those levels. Maybe that will change, but it won't happen for a while. Incidentally, the DPS24 does 96K/24 bit. I don't see any evidence that higher bit rates are coming anytime soon. Otherwise, I don't see where these devices are likely to become obsolete in the foreseeable future. And let's face it, 2" reel-to-reels are "obsolete" as well, but there are still hundreds of people using them. Some people are even seeking them out for the sound they impart.

All of these devices have their place. And I think having both systems makes a lot of sense. The only other option I would consider is a full blown embedded system, but that's a budget buster for me!

Ted

 

[SilverSurfer]

Currently, they are very difficult to find. Akai is now being distributed by Numark here in the US. They were going to release a new version a couple of months ago which was identical except for a color change, but it's been delayed several times, apparently because they are considering making some changes to it. They have released a small number of the old style units to fill the void, but the supply is very limited. Someone posted on the DPS24 forum that the former authorized service company had a few available. You can reach them at www.emusic.com. They aren't showing any on their inventory list, but I don't know if it's up to date. I bought mine on E-bay for $1700.00. You will see them selling used for somewhere between that and $2000.00. New, when you can get one, they go for $2700.00-$2800.00.

I did a lot of research before I bought this unit. Originally, I wanted one, but felt it was out of my budget, after struggling with the AW2816 for a while, I finally decided to get one anyway. I'm glad I did for a number of reasons. First, the DPS24 has 24 analog inputs arranged in two banks of 12. You can select either input on each channel. This means I can have all my gear connected directly without doing a lot of repatching. I have no way of comparing with the Roland gear, but I haven't seen anyone who has compared the DPS with the VS series who doesn't think the DPS24 is FAR superior sonically. Most users feel the pre's are VERY good. There are 4 inserts which can be routed to any channel, directly to the ADC bypassing the internal pres if you want to use outboard pre's or effects. Another MAJOR reason I chose the Akai is because of their user forum. Without a doubt, these are the best, most helpful, generous, calm (no one ever seems to get flamed) user group I have ever found. They will answer any question, quickly and accurately and, frequently if someone is having a problem, they will even give you their phone number so you can speak directly to them. Also, Sean from Akai is a frequent contributor so you can get information and assistance from them as well. If you are seriously considering the DPS24, I suggest you check it out HERE Manning1, you should take a look there too. Maybe you'll find a new respect for AIO's!

Ted

Thanks Ted, for the input. Now all I need is to save my cash! I like my AW16G and it will work for now but I will start saving for the AKAI. I like the portability of my recorder too. I can take it with me anywhere!

 

[Anthony]

SilverSurfer-Ahhhh, my favorite subject! If Manning1 was truly open-minded, he would tell you that the BEST method is a hybrid system that contains both a hardware system (could be analog or an All-In-One) and a DAW. Set up properly as Bartman and Anthony suggested, ntroducing problems into your rig. With a unit like the DPS24, you get great pres, 24bit, 96K recording and a highly flexible mixing desk. It can also be used to control the mixer in your sequencer of choice (assuming it can be controlled via MIDI). the best of both worlds!
Ted

Coincidentally I have worked with DPS24 for a short time it was setup with Yamaha 02, I think it is very capable machine but overpriced considering quality of EFX which is mediocre considering for this kind of money AKAI made this as weakest point in this machine.

Internal efx is simply sterile, no substance, very generic sounding reminds me of those internal efx inside Akai S series samplers (S1100,3200)

Consider for that kind of money you could get full Fostex 2424 (24 I/O A/D) or Alesis HD24 but Fostex has better grade (selected) converters + it is only thing that reads WAV, so you can export and import just about anything to any computer for more extensive editing + it is completely
compatible with Alesis and it actually behaves with other machine exactly like Adat due to Adat interface compatibility

Fostex cost less then half of the price of DPS24, for rest you can purchase Motu I/O or dedicated efx box or even self contained digital mixer still with money to spare in case of SilverSurfer for software or for future upgrades. But multitrack recorders machine combined with powerful computer is always a winning ticket, It gives you great reassurance for recording and fantastic resources for editing and sound design.

 

[Anthony]

ted. you are entitled to your position.
but i respectfully disagree. in fact on another forum you should read what people are saying about these standalones.(the screens ? the editing ? the button pushing ? . please tell the whole story.)
in fact with the advent of ever faster pc's. these standalones will become obsolete. JUST MY OPINION. and then when they are obsolete try getting service....manufacturers of standalones are legendary in not offering upgrades when new models come out. they want the poor musician to keep on buying a new standalone. at least i can upgrade a pc with little cost.
peace.

Manning1,

I agree with you about computers getting faster and more reliable and power capable to make lots of present machines obsolete. But there are lots of factors in production that have reliability on mind not to mention sound quality. I don't wont to go in lengthy qualitative debate on hardware, but for a quite some time hardware wont be obsolete for many people and many environments when critical stability and uncompromised quality is or the essence. Synergy of both makes entire work a pure joy

 

[tedluk]

Coincidentally I have worked with DPS24 for a short time it was setup with Yamaha 02, I think it is very capable machine but overpriced considering quality of EFX which is mediocre considering for this kind of money AKAI made this as weakest point in this machine.

Internal efx is simply sterile, no substance, very generic sounding reminds me of those internal efx inside Akai S series samplers (S1100,3200)

Consider for that kind of money you could get full Fostex 2424 (24 I/O A/D) or Alesis HD24 but Fostex has better grade (selected) converters + it is only thing that reads WAV, so you can export and import just about anything to any computer for more extensive editing + it is completely
compatible with Alesis and it actually behaves with other machine exactly like Adat due to Adat interface compatibility

Fostex cost less then half of the price of DPS24, for rest you can purchase Motu I/O or dedicated efx box or even self contained digital mixer still with money to spare in case of SilverSurfer for software or for future upgrades. But multitrack recorders machine combined with powerful computer is always a winning ticket, It gives you great reassurance for recording and fantastic resources for editing and sound design.

Admittedly the effects are basic, but servicable and I think the importance of internal effects are highly overrated anyway. Roland has great internal effects, but a number of their users have left that platform because of a difficult UI and lower sound quality. That's what's REALLY important. Sound. The Akai is the best sounding AIO by nearly all accounts.

I don't know what digital mixer you are talking about. The cheapest one I know of is the Behringer DDX3216 and it's selling for $1100.00. Right there you've spent $2400.00 and you've got a kludged system with limited connectivity. By the time you add the ADAT board to the Behringer, the cost difference is negligible. I doubt that anyone has done a comparison, but I don't think I'd be jumping too far to think that Akai will have better preamps and electronics than the Behringer.

Out of the box, the DPS24 supports 8 channels of ADAT and has the option of adding 16 more for the ability to transfer 24 tracks at a time! The ADAT board sells for $169.99.

Everybody hypes their products. That's a given. What sold me was how satisfied the users in their forum were. Very few problems and they were pretty easily solved for the most part. If you then listen to some of the music these guys are producing, it's hard to not be impressed. And these are guys who've worked with a lot of different systems and have opted for the DPS24 because it makes them more productive.

Ted

 

[Anthony]

Admittedly the effects are basic, but servicable and I think the importance of internal effects are highly overrated anyway. Roland has great internal effects, but a number of their users have left that platform because of a difficult UI and lower sound quality. That's what's REALLY important. Sound. The Akai is the best sounding AIO by nearly all accounts.Ted

Far from suggesting that This model is bad, it has great sound with no compression, and this is
why I never liked Roland models...but you have to be honest that its price should reflect full package.
Akai never cared much about quality of effects and this is critique even since first S samplers.

As for mixer why you who purchased your used , now consider that my recommendation has to be brand new?

I was also suggesting a used one (in good shape) people change their gear constantly and he might get
as good as one just purchased from the store. There are options beside Behringer and they come far better as used, besides that model was not even close on my mind.

There is Soundcraft, there are plenty used Yamaha models.

I really like this Akai but I still think it is overpriced for someone who has to rely on making everything inside this machine, and you know that many users do make everything on machines like this. Akai has no excuse for making such mediocre effects when even first attempts models from Fostex and Behringer integration have far better pro sounding efx engine then AKAI who by now
is certainly no stranger in this product segment.

And please don't pretend that AKAI is not highlighting this as complete production machine with fantastic sounding efx, that is not the case, and price should be lower. All rest is great and I think machine has promising capabilities.

It they wanted shortest signal path and signal strength as they have quality of I/O, then they should have completely abandon efx as such. This way, they have it and someone will consider them to be of good quality considering the price tag and they are simply mediocre.

Roland being complexed is personal observation from user to user, but beside compression he delivers full package and more then resonably cheaper them this model from Akai.

 

[tedluk]

Anthony-

I have to disagree with you. There is nothing wrong with the quality of the effects in the DPS24. You speak as if they are very poor for a machine in this price range and they're not. I agree that they're not incredible, but they're more than adequate. The biggest complaint is that they don't offer a huge pallette. For instance, there is no amp or microphone modeling. What they do offer is what matters- Dynamics, Compression/expansion, EQ. These are the meat and potatoes of effects and they sound fine. The reverb is as good as most such devices. Honestly, none of the AIO's have incredible effects. They're good, but never going to replace top-drawer outboard gear. I also have to wonder what version DPS24 you worked with. Akai has made a number of enhancements. In terms of effects, the most significant was the addition of the MBCX (Multi Band Compression eXpansion).

I truly don't understand your feelings or argument as regards price. The DPS24 is priced competitively with the other top end AIO's. The Korg D32XD is $3000.00 and the Roland VS-2480CD is $3295.00. The DPS24 sells for $2800.00. How is that overpriced? Your argument about the digital mixer also doesn't make sense. I was comparing new prices for all gear. If you're comparing used prices, then you have to compare the prices to a used DPS24. I paid $1700.00 for mine. Tell me what digital mixer/HD recorder combination you are buying for less. That setup is still going to be at least as expensive used as a DPS24. I only brought up the Behringer because it's the least expensive digital mixer I'm aware of. Anything else will cost more. A Soundcraft 328, for instance is around $1500.00 used. An 01V96 is at least that much and probably more.

I looked at every combination. I examined Korg, Roland, Yamaha, etc. I think the Akai delivers a superior product at a fair price and I can tell you its UI is far easier to work with than my AW2816. I can't speak directly to the Roland VS series, but I've used Roland gear since the 70's and there are two things you can rely on from them- 1) the manual will be nearly useless; poorly translated, full of errors and incomplete, and 2) The UI will be overly complicated, confusing and lack features that should have been included and appear simple to implement. I have owned keyboards, modules, sequencers and other items from them and this is always, always, always the case.

Ted