recommendations for live classical guitar?

  • Thread starter Thread starter NationalSandwic
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It really all depends on a combination of the guitar, the playing style, and the way the PA interacts in the room and with the stage.

Feedback is not only volume dependent, but also frequency dependent. Sometimes micing at the sound hole can create more feedback than backing off a bit and shifting towards the neck. My favorite general compromise is about 12" from where the neck meets the body but from there pointed straight at the center of the soundhole. If the guitar already sounds thin, than I point it right at the soundhole from straight on. If the guitar is very large bodied with a lot of resonance sometimes I like to put the mic about 12" out and point it dead center between the center of the sound hole and the place where the neck meets the body.

In general, a louder source signal does make it easier to get better gain before feedback, but frequencies can seriously change that. Often times if the lows on the guitar itself are that boomy, then you need to EQ them out. After you have finished EQ'ing however you may find yourself bumping the gain back up to compensate for the gain you just lost with EQ. Now you are right back in feedbackville. Especially if you are runing monitors from FOH and the monitor send is pre channel strip EQ. There are just so many variables and every day on every different stage things need to be adapted. There are really only a few variables that can not be changed. In many venues PA specs and placement and room acoustics are a fact of life. Sometimes as FOH engineers we have to make what we might consider compromises due to uncontrollable logistics like that.

So, in the end, there is no flat out right and wrong answer. Getting better tone may come at the expense of overall volume due to feedback and such. Getting better volume may come at the expense of tone. This is where the big boys earn their stripes. They are the ones that find the best possible compromise between the two. Not only that, but they do it in a timely fashion. There is only one rule with sound. Make it good, whatever it takes.
 
Ouch, if you are performing in clubs with bass, drums etc... you may really need to look into a good pick up system. Now you have just added one more thing to the condensor problem, a large amount of fairly high volume backround noise. Remember, we still have physics to deal with here. Whatever sound hits the mic the loudest gets amplified the most. Now I am almost thinking that you may want to use a pair of decent dynamic mics to get some better distant rejection of the band behind you. By using two mics you can hopefully squash the feedback issue simultaneously.

As far as in ears go, I would stay with Shure transmitters and receivers, but the earpiece market opens up quite a lot. There is a reason why Shure probably outsells all other in ear manufacturers (transmitters and receivers) combined. The shure's are durable, fairly priced, sound good, and have excellent RF characteristics. Ear pieces themselves are a much more "personal" decision. I personally like Futuresonics, but they are all pretty decent now adays (Shure, Westone, Ultimate Ears etc...).
 
sure, i shoulda been clearer before.
but the way things are going i could play a simple clean guit&vox set tonight, and a full on thing tomorrow night. bah, i need to pick a style =)

this feedback kill using two dynamic mics was mentioned before. how does it work?

ps what are RF stats?
 
By using two mics, the gain on each can be a little lower , they can be cross panned a bit, and each can be EQ'ed seperately for feedback control without as many over all tonality issues. You could even go with one dynamic and one condensor.

By RF stats I meant radio frequency issues. Shure seems to have better range and clarity without having to add additional antenna boosters etc... They are just a good compromise between price, ability, quality, and durability. There are other good units as well, but i don't really feel like the offerings from other companies compete well until you hit the basic $1000 a channel and up offerings. For under $1000 I wouldn't even consider anything but the shures. If you play sitting down you could even go with a wired in ear pack, or even a small headphone amp with decent earbuds. This would save a lot of money and batteries:D
 
xstatic said:
The Allison Kraus example is pretty useless in my opinion. There is a HUGE difference between performing in a club with minimal or crappy PA's and lack of experience at FOH and performing on a nice stage with a Line Array, killer equipment at both FOh and monitor land, excellent wedges and/or in ears and great engineers.
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Thank you for helping me with my useless opinions. I'll try to do better next time.
 
macmoondoggie said:
Thank you for helping me with my useless opinions. I'll try to do better next time.
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Anytime:)

Sorry if you took that personally, I did go on to qualify why I stated that.
 
Now that you've explained your setup, using effects and singing and all, I'd lean towards a pickup system.

The key to good sound with a piezo is a proper buffer circuit, which isn't complicated, but based on the sound of some piezo pres I've heard, not always implemented. The other issue is placement (I think that's why the soundhole pickups sound bad), you could try your Schaller piezo element with a better piezo pre, keeping the wire from piezo to buffer as short as possible, and play with the position of the piezo. You could also try several piezo elements--I read once about a harpist who had an element for each string :eek:

But good sound is possible from a piezo--if you have doubts, listen to this recording Tim Lawler did:

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=176454

If I managed that sound on stage I'd be overjoyed :)
 
Here's a couple of important questions: are you playing by yourself or with others? If so, are the other musicians loud--drums, electric guitar, electric bass? This can make a huge difference.

In a solo situation, things are much easier, and you have many options. In this situation, a two mike solution (one for guitar and one for vocals) will work very well. I would get a small condenser microphone for the guitar, if possible, and get it fairly close to the guitar.

In a loud band, things change considerably. I would definitely be looking at a pickup system. Try to find one that will require the least amount of modification to the guitar to preserve its sound.

It may also be necessary to get a soundhole cover, to control feedback, and reduce vibrations from loud instruments that will be picked up by the guitar's amplification system. Bass guitar is especially bad for rattling acoustic guitars. A soundhole cover will obviously reduce the volume of the guitar unamplified, so it only works with a pickup system. It can also come in handy when you're practicing in a hotel room, and trying not to wake the neighbours.
 
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I can play alone or with others. It's a difficult set-up.
I'm using samples and loops and stuff, so a solo gig is possible.
Sometimes the samples are really loud, strong electronic beats. Vocals are sometimes loud, sometimes real soft.
i've also been told that electronic music through a PA is real difficult to get sounding good?

Maybe i should post some piezo recording i've done? but i'm not sure where...if someone could point me to an mp3 hosting site... my prob with the pick up is that it's way too bright. i play fingerstyle, with nails, so there's some clicking and scraping that gets blown out by the pick-up. i got a pretty good sound combining the piezo with an AKG D224E (dynamic mic). but that's a recording, not a performance.
i mean, i can set up an EQ before the guitar goes anywhere else, but eq feels like such a cheat.

hehe mshilarious, maybe i should get you to come out here. or if i'm ever in North Carolina (!), i'll give you a shout :)

i'm sure i'm wrong, but i get the feeling that most FOH guys here don't really care for giving the performer a good sound...they'll get you an ok sound, but not make much effort or take much interest. Also, i've never seen a venue do afternoon soundchecks; places generally do levels & eq briefly before you start and in the first song you perform. i think that's some horseshit.
 
NationalSandwic said:
some clicking and scraping that gets blown out by the pick-up. i got a pretty good sound combining the piezo with an AKG D224E (dynamic mic). but that's a recording, not a performance.
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There are a number of "blend" systems that combine a piezo with a small condenser mic clipped to your guitar. You might try one of those systems.
 
you know what
i am going to try the piezo i have for a full performance. i've a small PA (2X400W) and i'll use that at full strenght to put the system through its paces. if i can get that right, i'll have more time to a) research the systems and b) save up :)

thanks for all the feedback though.

until now that i've been browsing online, i've not realised the vast range of mics available. it's goddamn madness.
 
NationalSandwic said:
you know what
i am going to try the piezo i have for a full performance. i've a small PA (2X400W) and i'll use that at full strenght to put the system through its paces. if i can get that right, i'll have more time to a) research the systems and b) save up :)

thanks for all the feedback though.

until now that i've been browsing online, i've not realised the vast range of mics available. it's goddamn madness.
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Piezos are extremely high impedence. If you go directly to a PA input you will probably get an exceedingly harsh sound that EQ won't be able to fix. If you don't already have one, get a decent DI or preamp. Fishman makes some relatively inexpensive ones. It will never sound like a good mic, but the pickup won't sound so crappy.
 
mandocaster said:
Piezos are extremely high impedence. If you go directly to a PA input you will probably get an exceedingly harsh sound that EQ won't be able to fix. If you don't already have one, get a decent DI or preamp. Fishman makes some relatively inexpensive ones. It will never sound like a good mic, but the pickup won't sound so crappy.
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I agree. As a general rule, the higher input impedance the better, though I have been surprised by the lowly Whirlwind Imp2 on more than one occasion, even with piezos.

The DI with the absolute highest input impedance is the Countryman Type 85, with 10megohms. It should be on your list to audition. Any pro sound company will have at least one or two to deal with very high-impedance pickups like piezos.
 
oh now you see....i know so little about things like impedance; i thought high impendence weakened a signal. maybe this is why i'm getting such strong highends?

how would preamp change that though? thought a pre amp just gained the signal?
should i EQ too?


is there a website i can read/learn more about microphony. sound-on-sound good?
 
NationalSandwic said:
oh now you see....i know so little about things like impedance. maybe that's why i'm getting such strong highends?

how would preamp change that though? thought a pre amp just gained the signal?
should i EQ too?
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The preamps I am refering to (FIshman,Baggs,etc) are designed specifically for piezos. One of their tasks is to lower the impedence. They provide gain and some kind of EQ, also, of course.
 
The impedance buffer should be inside the guitar or somewhere else very close to it, since any length of cable is going to be detrimental your tone. I generally don't like the EQ that is provided with piezo pres, it's usually much better to use a parametric EQ on a decent pre or mixer. I like a buffer circuit that does nothing but that; no preamp, no EQ. It is nice to get a balanced out, but you could manage that with a direct box.

I also find that a tube stage somewhere in the chain is helpful to smooth out some of the direct sound. In fact I believe Lawler used the lowly Presonus BlueTube on his track :o
 
given the range of things you're planning on doing, you might want to get a less expensive guitar with the electronics built-in for gigging at clubs - which probably won't notice the "lower quality" of instrument... plus you save exposing your expensive one to smoke, moisture, possible damage as the crowd swarms the stage :-0 and save the expensive one for classical gigs where you would expect better acoustics and more discerning audience...
this way you don't have to do anything to your expensive rig. plenty of decent classical guitars with electronics out there for under $1000...
 
IME classical gtr live sound with a mic is only practical when you're on a very large stage in a very large room, otherwise feedback problems limit the max volume to such an extent that it's useful only as an additive to a good contact transducer sound. And if you're anywhere near a room corner or there's a low ceiling, forget the mic.

For live sound I've been happy with a Dean Markley Artist transducer attached to the treble foot of the bridge with soft putty about 1/8" thick (I use "Duck" poster putty made by Henkel). Has to have just the right buffer or it sounds like the typical piezo "quack-zing". Going through a Presonus Bluetube or a Boss stomp box on bypass it sounds great... also sounds good into the piezo input of my SWR Calif Blonde so I imagine it'd work just as well into any of the specialty acoustic gtr amps that have ultra highZ inputs for piezos. I've never liked the sound of under the saddle transducers for nylon string regardless of how they're buffered... on steel string they're good but they sound hard and plastic-y on nylon to me.

Beyond that I always use a RNC compressor on supernice mode for transparent leveling, which I consider essential for live nylon string sound, and much better than a volume pedal.

A condenser mic mixed in just a little with the piezo can add a nice feel to the sound. I place it midpoint between the soundhole and bridge, just far enough away that my right hand doesn't bump it.

Good luck with it.

Tim
 
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