recommendations for live classical guitar?

N

NationalSandwic

New member
hello

i've a great classical guitar, and i want to perform live with it. i don't want to put a pickup into the guitar, so can anyone recommend a good mic. the guitar is FULL of sonority and nuance, so i want to be able to capture that. it can also play really softly, which i would like to be able to do as well.

any recommendations? condensers are out of the question (feedback?)?
thanks!
anthony
 
When I did live sound, we used sdc's all the time on acoustic guitar. Milabs, KM84, SM81, etc. Put it close to the sound hole, and you should be good to go, IMHO.
 
sorry, but what's SDC? super dynamic condenser? sorta deep cardioid? :)

i've been told that condensers are real bad for live gigs, cos they're just too sensitive?
 
a guitarist. he said the sensitivity leads to tremendous feedback. so it's bullshit, then?
i don't think i can afford the sm81. you reckon a 57 will do the trick? it's early days yet...
 
NationalSandwic said:
a guitarist. he said the sensitivity leads to tremendous feedback. so it's bullshit, then?
i don't think i can afford the sm81. you reckon a 57 will do the trick? it's early days yet...
Click to expand...

No, you're much better off with a condenser. Feedback should not be an issue with a semi-competent sound tech, especially since you don't need monitors. I would not directly mic the soundhole, that is not the best tone. Try a foot off from the 12th fret, or the lower bout, whichever is less obtrusive and sounds better.

If you can't score the 81, Shure has a couple of cheaper models (SM94, KSM109) that will work fine, or try Oktava or Studio Projects, I don't know those models, but someone else will be along with the specifics.
 
what do you mean 'you don't need monitors'? most live venues have pretty decent stage monitors? i didn't explain that i'm not going into an amplifier... though i'm not sure that guitar amps provide phantom power for condenser mics?

i have two AKG D224E's. are they any good?
 
Condensors in general can certainly be problems on a stage, but that all depends on a combination of how the PA and monitors are set up and who is running the console. With a good engineer it can most certainly be handled. For what you described, a Neumann KM184 would be an excellent mic. Many condensors will sound a little too low heavy when placed fairly close to an acoustic guitar, especially near the sound hole which may be the best place to put it in a live scenario to get a better gain structure that can still resist some feedback issues. The Km184 however is a little thin in the lows compared to many other small diaphragm condensors, and has a little extra top end than many as well. Both of those things could be beneficial in your specific case (although I can opnly go by my gut feeling without being there to actually try it). By micing near the sound hole your guitar should put off more volume, a little less clarity (bigger lows, however you want to look at it) and the KM184 would actually serve to balance your sound a bit more. However, most any small diaphragm condensor would probably be up to the job as well with a little EQ from the FOH console (which even the KM184 would probably receive as well).

If you do decide to go the dynamic mic route, I would reccomend a Shure beta 57a instead of a standard sm57. The beta 57a should be a little hotter, and have a tighter pattern and a smoother more open top end. All of those are things I would imagine to be positive factors in having to mic a classical guitar on stage. Especially if you will be using conventional wedges. I would highly consider using in ear monitors if at all possible as opposed to wedges. Using two mics would also help to reduce feedback as well as getting a better sound and a larger range of motion without mic pattern issues.

On another note, there are some pretty nice pickup systems available now, but I can't necessarily say how well they would work with your guitar, so i would talk with a good luthier before you decided to add a set. I am not a big fan of the way any of the aftermarket pickups sound (at least the clip on sort, soundhole sort etc...). The new Taylor/Neve expression system that comes in many of the new Taylors though really sounds very good. For fun the other day we plugged a Taylor in straight to the console for a reference track. The sound quality that we got was actually pretty impressive. You could almost convince someone that it was mic'ed. There were still some giveaways that it was a pick up system, but sounded much better than any other direct acoustic I had heard. A little EQ'ing and the unfaithful (or at least unconvincing) sound of most PA's that you will probably play on would really even out the fact that it was pickups and may actually net you a better result than micing your classical guitar in many of the live settings. I have also noticed that it is much easier to get good gain out of the Expression system in a PA wihtout reorting to feedback reduction techniques (almost all of which have an immediate affect on sound quality but some sort of balance between tone and volume must be compromised when trying to reach an audience).

Do you plan on singing at the same time? If so, a dynamic may be your best bet to keep your vocals from phasing between your vocal mic and the guitar mic. This is especially true if you play and/or sing softly.

Hope some of this helps:)
 
NationalSandwic said:
what do you mean 'you don't need monitors'? most live venues have pretty decent stage monitors? i didn't explain that i'm not going into an amplifier... though i'm not sure that guitar amps provide phantom power for condenser mics?
Click to expand...

No, guitar amps are not designed for mics of any kind. You would need a transformer to patch a mic into guitar amp, but there is no particular reason to do that.

Yes, most (hopefully all) live venues have monitors. Why do you want them? You are playing classical music? Whether you are with an ensemble or solo, I've hardly ever seen a classical guitarist who wanted to hear their sound through a monitor.

The exception I can think of was one time I saw John McLaughlin, he used a nylon string with a pickup, and was playing with two other musicians on a large stage. They used monitors, but that wasn't exactly a classical concert.

Perhaps I should not have assumed you were playing the former style rather than the latter. Even so, if you do indeed need a monitor, a competent sound tech should not have a problem. It's simply a matter of getting the mic and monitor placement right, and getting the monitor EQ right. There will be a limited upper level on the monitor gain before feedback, but that's likely to be louder than your guitar unless you are in a real bad hall.
 
I'm a classical guitarist and I use a Neumann KM-187 to record but I almost never use amplifiers. When I do, it's a trace elliot (kind of expensive).

I recommend you get a condensor. A sm57 will not bring out all the tones in your guitar. mshilarious is right though, put the mic about a foot from the 12th fret and point it at the 12th fret. If you point the mic right at the sound hole you will get a boomy sound that is more likely to produce feedback.
 
mshilarious said:
No, guitar amps are not designed for mics of any kind. You would need a transformer to patch a mic into guitar amp, but there is no particular reason to do that.

Yes, most (hopefully all) live venues have monitors. Why do you want them? You are playing classical music? Whether you are with an ensemble or solo, I've hardly ever seen a classical guitarist who wanted to hear their sound through a monitor.

The exception I can think of was one time I saw John McLaughlin, he used a nylon string with a pickup, and was playing with two other musicians on a large stage. They used monitors, but that wasn't exactly a classical concert.

Perhaps I should not have assumed you were playing the former style rather than the latter. Even so, if you do indeed need a monitor, a competent sound tech should not have a problem. It's simply a matter of getting the mic and monitor placement right, and getting the monitor EQ right. There will be a limited upper level on the monitor gain before feedback, but that's likely to be louder than your guitar unless you are in a real bad hall.
Click to expand...


Unless you buy a trace elliot amp that was designed for mic inputs and condensors.
 
For the same money you can get a Shure SM86 cardioid condenser tha's intended for stage use. I would bet it's a little more honest for classicla guitar than a dynamic mic will be. Feedback will not be a problem if your sound man knows half of what he's doing.....
 
Actually, many solo guitarists do like to have a monitor. A lot of that depends upon the PA situation. If the guitarist hears too much bleed from the PA, the combination of delay and backwash (lack of clarity from being out of the horn pattern, back of cabinet rumble etc...) can be very distracting. Having a monitor helps with timing and the comfort of being able to hear the highs and not just muddy room resonance. Miking form a foot out on the twlefth fret would sound better than micing the sound hole, but could create extra feddback issues with gain, main PA, and monitor settings.
 
If your really concerned about using condensers in a live setting, consider
watching an Alison Krauss and Union Station concert DVD. Check out what there using and you can dispel that myth with no explanation necessary. ;)
 
NationalSandwic said:
hello

i've a great classical guitar, and i want to perform live with it. i don't want to put a pickup into the guitar, so can anyone recommend a good mic. the guitar is FULL of sonority and nuance, so i want to be able to capture that. it can also play really softly, which i would like to be able to do as well.

any recommendations? condensers are out of the question (feedback?)?
thanks!
anthony
Click to expand...

I used to gig a lot with a nylon string. Despite many different mic setups, it never sounded the way I wanted it too. I then went to a built in pre/pickup configuration and still prefer that. Next in line, would be an SM57 through an acoustic amp with a balanced input. I also experimented with small diaphram condensors, but still prefer dynamic mics like the SM57. Another solution is to blend both a built in pickup with a mic.
 
The Allison Kraus example is pretty useless in my opinion. There is a HUGE difference between performing in a club with minimal or crappy PA's and lack of experience at FOH and performing on a nice stage with a Line Array, killer equipment at both FOh and monitor land, excellent wedges and/or in ears and great engineers.
 
I know you said no pickups, but... I have had good luck with a Schatten Dyn-G. It is actually a contact dynamic microphone. They are pricey - $400, but you can move it around to different instruments easily since it is held on with putty. I have gotten tons of use out of mine on nylon strings, steel strings, and mandolin. No preamp is required. It sounds great straight into a PA, with very little feedback problem.
 
If you point the mic right at the sound hole you will get a boomy sound that is more likely to produce feedback.
Click to expand...

Ummm, that would not be right. The sound hole will provide the loudest sound from the guitar, thus you need less gain on the board, thus LESS feedback. 12th fret is nice for recording, but when you want max gain before feedback closer to the sound hole is the only way to go.
 
some good reading here, thanks...seems it's quite an unclear issue. unfortunately, i don't have the money to experiment between dynamics, condensers, and pickups.

let me make my situation clearer:
- I'm feeling wary of putting something into the guitar, cos it's SUCH an expensive and subtle machine, and i'm worried about any negative effects on it's tone.
- i'm very concerned about feedback...and it makes sense to me that built-in pickups (like the LR Baggs system, which has come highly recommended from a couple sources) are far more prone to it. and i don't really trust engineers here :) the trick is to bring down the gain, and low mids, right?
- I do intend on singing while playing; and there'd easily be a full spectrum of sound with that too (drums, bass, etc.)
- my signal route for guitar is guitar->effects (not always active)->computer->desk
- i've been using a Schaller oyster pickup, which worked nicely on my old cheap guitar, but there's no way it's picking up all the sonority on this one.
- the guitar is a professional concert guitar, capable of performing solo in large spaces. i've used it for that, and it sounds great. but, no, clubs are not the same thing. i am not playing classical repertoire (although i might include a piece in a set, why not...) but i am playing a lot of guitar music, ie i'm not just strumming chords along with my singing. and a lot of the effects in the playing are real subtle. so i want to take the approach of a classical guitarist. (incidentally, i've seen pro classical guitarists perform with amplification and without, there's no rule or strict preference)

i wonder about the soundhole vs 12th fret argument. i know that the sound is better at a distance, and placing at the hole is likely to pick up more nail scrapes. that's easy to experiment though.

ok, i now understand that condensers are ok live. the idea of using ear-monitors hadn't occured to me (any recommendations on those?). condensers are certainly the priciest option. what's the deal with ribbon mics?

thanks everyone!!
 
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