Reamping Guitar

[Greg_L]

Very blunt of you Greg. What has gotten into you lately.

What do you mean? I'm always blunt.

Sometimes I feel that all the technology and time to mix gets us home recordists a bit obsessive. Sometimes I will find myself obsessing over tiny eq cuts and gain reduction levels and what not. Its important to realize at that point that nobody (but me) is going to care.

Yes, this ^^^^^

I'm all for making the best mix possible. But there comes a point in which you have to say "that's good enough". The listener, if there even is one, isn't going to know or care if you're happy with the guitar sound or not.

 

[JG96]

I'm just playin'

 

[miroslav]

To get the best possible record out of the limited time available.

And that's just it for me....it takes much less time to dial in an amp and record the guitar tracks and move on....
....than it does to DI the guitar tracks, record all your other shit, then start mixing the song and at THAT point, reamping the guitar tracks and sitting there trying out a bunch of amps looking for a tone that works.

I think it's been said....guitar tone is often very much a reactive thing that occurs while playing....you just don't get that with reamping. Also, laying down other tracks while hearing a specific tone from your guitar tracks drives how they are dialed in and recorded. I don't want to hear dry DI guitar tracks while recording other tracks.

If I really WAS in the mood to consider saving some tracks for reamping on a given song....I would STILL dial in my amp as needed and record that tone, but also take a split and have a DI track.
Odds are though...that by the time I got done with all the other tracks and got around to considering the reamping of the guitar....I would probably already have gotten so use to the tone from the amp track, that I wouldn't bother reamping.

 

[Jay C]

Howzabout you guys just plug a guitar into an amp, turn it up loud, and press record? I get that micromanaging and chasing the best tone ever can be fun, but really, anyone that listens to your crap isn't going to care if your amp's presence knob was on 4 instead of 3.

I always love your answers dude.

 

[ashcat_lt]

Howzabout you guys just plug a guitar into an amp, turn it up loud, and press record?

Ummm... Because I live in a house with other people and don't want to be a total asshole when inspiration strikes at 02:00???

I get that micromanaging and chasing the best tone ever can be fun, but really, anyone that listens to your crap isn't going to care if your amp's presence knob was on 4 instead of 3.

This I agree with whole-heartedly, which is why I have no compunctions about using an amp simulator.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I think it's been said....guitar tone is often very much a reactive thing that occurs while playing....you just don't get that with reamping.

This in my opinion is the Achilles heel of reamping. What you hear back affects how you play.

When I expect to be reamping a guitar part I still give the player the best possible facsimile of the intended tone, generally by having him play through something like a SansAmp GT-2. I record before and after the GT-2 because sometimes it works and I save myself the trouble of wading through hundreds of options in the sim.

 

[Greg_L]

Ummm... Because I live in a house with other people and don't want to be a total asshole when inspiration strikes at 02:00???

So you record your groundbreaking "inspiration" direct so you don't lose the idea forever, and track it for real later. Stop doing things halfassedly.

 

[JG96]

So you record your groundbreaking "inspiration" direct so you don't lose the idea forever, and track it for real later. Stop doing things halfassedly.

+1 I know I can't play my best at 2 AM. Think of it as a musical notepad.

 

[miroslav]

Eat your hearts out....I can go to "11" at 3AM and not have cops or neighbors freaking out about it....
....and even when my old mum is here visiting, she don't hear a thing coming out of the studio.

 

[Greg_L]

Eat your hearts out....I can go to "11" at 3AM and not have cops or neighbors freaking out about it....
....and even when my old mum is here visiting, she don't hear a thing coming out of the studio.

I knew there had to be at least one upside to being a lonely old hermit.

 

[ashcat_lt]

Stop doing things halfassedly.

"But I was using my whole ass." - Homer J Simpson

Edit to add, rather than double post -

But more to the point, this is a Home Recording forum and that covers a whole lot of ground. There are all kinds of different folks around here recording all kinds of different stuff in all kinds of different situations and neither you nor anyone else has the right to tell any of them that they are wrong in any way for doing what they need to in order to get at least somewhere close to their own unique artistic vision. I, for one, would never get anything done if I had to wait until my house was quiet enough to record with an open microphone but with nobody sleeping and on a day and time when I'm not required to be at my day job or otherwise fulfill some other obligation.

I don't honestly need your sympathy or your approval, but I really don't need to hear your scorn for the methods that I or anyone else uses to express themselves. Your way is no more right than anyone else's. One might make the argument that you are a Luddite stuck in the last century, and should maybe come join us in the present. I don't care enough, though. I'm sure you get the results you want doing it your way, and that's great. I guess maybe the results I get aren't what you might want, but if I'm happy with it. Why is that such a problem for you?

 

[Greg_L]

"But I was using my whole ass." - Homer J Simpson

Edit to add, rather than double post -

But more to the point, this is a Home Recording forum and that covers a whole lot of ground. There are all kinds of different folks around here recording all kinds of different stuff in all kinds of different situations and neither you nor anyone else has the right to tell any of them that they are wrong in any way for doing what they need to in order to get at least somewhere close to their own unique artistic vision. I, for one, would never get anything done if I had to wait until my house was quiet enough to record with an open microphone but with nobody sleeping and on a day and time when I'm not required to be at my day job or otherwise fulfill some other obligation.

I don't honestly need your sympathy or your approval, but I really don't need to hear your scorn for the methods that I or anyone else uses to express themselves. Your way is no more right than anyone else's. One might make the argument that you are a Luddite stuck in the last century, and should maybe come join us in the present. I don't care enough, though. I'm sure you get the results you want doing it your way, and that's great. I guess maybe the results I get aren't what you might want, but if I'm happy with it. Why is that such a problem for you?

Lol. Need a tissue? Relax. I don't give a fuck what you do as I'm never going to listen to your music. You wanna faux your way through music, knock yourself out man. My initial posts were in regards to reamping and the technically and fundamentally correct way to go about doing it. As you say, this is a home recording forum, and bullshit batshit ideas get thrown around willy nilly all the time. I'm just trying to add some truth and accuracy instead of the usual "well it works for me durrrrr".

 

[danielbier]

And that's just it for me....it takes much less time to dial in an amp and record the guitar tracks and move on....
Odds are though...that by the time I got done with all the other tracks and got around to considering the reamping of the guitar....I would probably already have gotten so use to the tone from the amp track, that I wouldn't bother reamping.

Fair enough. Obviously this is a workflow choice you prefer. When available to me, I like to go in with both a mic'd amp and DI as well, but that's not always a possibility for me (depending on where I'm working).

The ability to get the exact amp sound I want at ANY time is very valuable to me though. And this idea that everyone should know exactly how their amp should sound when the only thing put to tape has been drums is just not always going to work out.

So really, in the end, printing directly from a cab with no failsafe doesn't do it for me. Especially with the kind of stuff I record. Their are too many sounds competing for the same sonic space to be able to determine an exact sound and tone and KNOW it couldn't be made better with the rest of the complimenting tracks to reference against.

So why not. It can't be argued that it's not a good idea to at least have that DId track sitting there doing nothing just in case.

 

[ashcat_lt]

You're supposed to have all of those different instruments played and recorded live at the same time. Work out your arrangements, gather a group of musicians, rehearse and preferably gig it until everybody's got it down to every beat and note. Then record it all together. Didn't you know that it's the only right way to do it? Stop half-assing and faking your way through!



Or... Establish "your sound" and never try anything different.

 

[miroslav]

I knew there had to be at least one upside to being a lonely old hermit.

Yeah....come and go when I please, plan my day on an as-it-falls basis, and record into the night without ever hearing that question, "do you have to spend so much time recording music?"

 

[miroslav]

...this idea that everyone should know exactly how their amp should sound when the only thing put to tape has been drums is just not always going to work out.

Well....how do you know what your drums should sound like when there's nothing else yet put to tape...?

Something has to go first....second....third....and lot of stuff is recorded that way without the need to hold off all tone decisions until the end. Reamping seems to primarily be a guitar tracking obsession, and IMHO (and not meant to insult anyone) it's more about not being sure about what you want or too much concern that what you do track won't cut it later on.
Other instruments don't get the same "red carpet" treatment" in Rock music like guitar does.

I actually do my lead guitar stuff as the last track(s) for most songs....even after the vocals are done.
AFA rhythm guitars, I'll usually drop one track right after the drums, then I'll do the bass, and maybe some keys/organ, and then consider the rhythm guitar track(s) again....adding more and/or redoing the original one.

I just don't see that there has to be only this ONE perfect choice for a guitar tone for a given song, that can ONLY be discovered via reamping and ONLY when you finally get to the mixdown. Heck....if there really was just one obvious tone that could work for given song....I would still just dial it in and record it.
I mean....it's also OK to just pick a tone based on your production goals and what you already "hear in your head", and build off of that....IOW, make a decision and live with it.
If I get to the mix and I'm absolutely hating the guitar track (or any tracks for that matter)....I just go back and re-record them from scratch. I strongly believe that playing & tone go together and work off each other, and reamping just kills that....but to each his own.

 

[Greg_L]

.it's also OK to just pick a tone based on your production goals and what you already "hear in your head", and build off of that....IOW, make a decision and live with it.

This ^^^^^

I mean seriously, how lost are you guys that you can't decide on the tone you want before pressing record? How far out in left field are some of you starting that you end up with tone so horribly out of place that you know you'll have to re-amp later? That's just insane to me. I can't understand it. I can understand wanting to re-amp because you'll later have access to killer stuff. But that's not usually the case. It's usually you know you'll fuck it up so you better save those DI tracks! Not good. That's where my main bone of contention lies with re-amping. It's a fail-safe for lazy clueless people.

If I get to the mix and I'm absolutely hating the guitar track (or any tracks for that matter)....I just go back and re-record them from scratch. I strongly believe that playing & tone go together and work off each other, and reamping just kills that....but to each his own.

And this ^^^^

 

[Justsomeguy]

Well....how do you know what your drums should sound like when there's nothing else yet put to tape...?

Something has to go first....second....third....and lot of stuff is recorded that way without the need to hold off all tone decisions until the end. Reamping seems to primarily be a guitar tracking obsession, and IMHO (and not meant to insult anyone) it's more about not being sure about what you want or too much concern that what you do track won't cut it later on.
Other instruments don't get the same "red carpet" treatment" in Rock music like guitar does.

I actually do my lead guitar stuff as the last track(s) for most songs....even after the vocals are done.
AFA rhythm guitars, I'll usually drop one track right after the drums, then I'll do the bass, and maybe some keys/organ, and then consider the rhythm guitar track(s) again....adding more and/or redoing the original one.

I just don't see that there has to be only this ONE perfect choice for a guitar tone for a given song, that can ONLY be discovered via reamping and ONLY when you finally get to the mixdown. Heck....if there really was just one obvious tone that could work for given song....I would still just dial it in and record it.
I mean....it's also OK to just pick a tone based on your production goals and what you already "hear in your head", and build off of that....IOW, make a decision and live with it.
If I get to the mix and I'm absolutely hating the guitar track (or any tracks for that matter)....I just go back and re-record them from scratch. I strongly believe that playing & tone go together and work off each other, and reamping just kills that....but to each his own.

^^^This whole thing pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject^^^

I normally record a guide rhythm guitar track and guide vocal track to a click first with the intention of re-recording them just to help the other instruments grove when recording, or to help bands know where the cues are for sections. I'll then track the drums and bass and then go back and record the rhythm guitars. I normally have a very clear idea of how i want the guitar to sound so set the amp like that, mic it up and see how it fits, and tweak if it needs it. If later down the line i realise the tone doesn't work then i'd much rather re-record it than reamp it as the feel of a performance is, as others have said, reactionary to the tone of the amp. A different amp tone may make a guitarist play in a very different way.

As i said earlier, i will take a DI feed as well as a safety net, but it's just that; a saftey net, it's an "if all else fails, last ditched resort" technique. If later down the line i realise the tone for a guitar part doesn't work then i'd much rather re-record it than reamp it for as the feel of a performance is, as others have said, reactionary to the tone of the amp. A different amp tone may make a guitarist play in a very different way. The example i gave earlier was one of those situations where re-recording the part was completely and utterly out of the question and reamping was a god send in theory for that situation, but had it been even remotely possible to re-record the guitar take then i would've much, much preferred that. The vast majority of the time the guitar DI sits in my DAW muted, as do a bunch of other tracks probably. For example, i might DI and mic a bass cab and then only use the mic or DI signal. Or i might mic every tom on a drum kit and then just use the overheads for all the toms. I'm of the school of thought of "i'd rather have it and not need it than not have it and need it." The problem with this school of thought, which seems to be what people are driving at here, is that it can be a very dangerous game if not done properly. If I mic every tom on a kit i will still make sure that the overheads are the best they can be and are capturing the whole kit and that they're in phase with the kick and snare. The toms mics are there as reinforcement if it needs it later in the mix. It becomes dangerous when you go down the thought process of "it doesn't matter that my toms sound crap in the overheads because i have them all closed mic'd". If later down the line i realise the tone for a guitar part doesn't work then i'd much rather re-record it than reamp it for as the feel of a performance is, as others have said, reactionary to the tone of the amp. A different amp tone may make a guitarist play in a very different way.

Greg_L; So you record your groundbreaking "inspiration" direct so you don't lose the idea forever, and track it for real later.

Funnily enough, i did exactly this at 3am yesterday morning and recorded the actual guitar part in the late afternoon. To me this is exactly why audio interface designers starting putting instrument inputs on the front of their AI's

 

[miroslav]

As much as I'm a guitar guy, and I love to drop leads and stuff on most songs (sometimes more than I should)....I was never that obsessed/concerned about the actual playing and/or lines I recorded.
I mean....if say I found that this killer lead I did all of a sudden had some kind of issue (I dunno, some amp buzz or something, that I didn't notice until the mixdown)....it's not like "Oh shit! Boy how I wish I had a DI track that I could now reamp!!!"
It's just a guitar track....just play/record the damn thing over. If you can't pretty much replay the same lines....you got bigger issues than "reamping for tone".

That said...I really DO understand why in a commercial recording situation, "safety nets" are a concern. You're dealing with *clients*...or maybe a session player who will cost more to bring back for another round if you fucked up the tone and it's not working in the mix...etc...etc....
...but us home/project studio guys have the ability to record, re-record, re-record, re-record, re-record.......................
....so the need for "safety nets" isn't as critical, IMHO, but it's OK to have alongside your actual amped tracks if you will feel less anxiety about what you are playing/tracking...but I would never feel that anxious to just do DI tracks and save the amp decisions all for later.
Basically...***I don't mind redoing tracks***....it ain't no big deal, and in most cases when I've been forced to do that....the redo ends up being better than the original.

 

[Justsomeguy]

As much as I'm a guitar guy, and I love to drop leads and stuff on most songs (sometimes more than I should)....I was never that obsessed/concerned about the actual playing and/or lines I recorded.
I mean....if say I found that this killer lead I did all of a sudden had some kind of issue (I dunno, some amp buzz or something, that I didn't notice until the mixdown)....it's not like "Oh shit! Boy how I wish I had a DI track that I could now reamp!!!"
It's just a guitar track....just play/record the damn thing over. If you can't pretty much replay the same lines....you got bigger issues than "reamping for tone".

Although it's slightly off topic, and i'm sure it's been done to death all over forums around the net, the Performance vs Quality of recording is a trap that i fear some home recordists fall into, and i can't help but think it's because, as you've said;

..but us home/project studio guys have the ability to record, re-record, re-record, re-record, re-record.......................

It's the wonderful double edged sword of computer based recording. You can record and re-record and re-record until you're blue in the face which is fantastic because it means you really can spend hours/days/weeks getting the perfect take and practicing your art. The problem is that, because we can do this, it's very, very hard to know when to stop. When is a perfect take the perfect take? Especially as many home recordists are recording themselves singing and, as has been said on other threads, many singers don't like the sound of their own voice, being able to subjectively know when something is good enough is very tough.

Sod it, it's 5 am and i cba with a rant, so to summarise my thought process;

If you're recording yourself just for the joys of recording yourself then it's great to able to re-record things to death to practice different recording techniques and refine your art, but never forget that the performance should come first. A picture of dog crap taken with some super dooper high res state of the art 3d camera is still a picture of dog crap at the end of the day

If you're working with people who are paying you to capture their performances to the best of your abilities, provided they are performing to the best of theirs, like Miroslav said, having safety nets can be the difference between getting paid or getting shouted at, but always bare in mind that they are "safety nets". It's like thinking "it doesn't matter if i forget to breathe because this iron lung will do it for me"