Query - Pre-Amp technology OLD vs. NEW

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jack Hammer
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There's a certain response that tubes have that transistors don't have...its not better or worse, its just different...Remember that we as engineers are nothing more than extensions of previous technologies...just as guitarists...

Example: everyone clamors about the warmth of tube guitar amps, and how solid state just sounds weak and sterile. That is because the music that we all hear that is considered 'benchmark' tonally was done with tube gear simply because solid state did not yet exist! I can only imagine that if the solid state technology existed in the early 1950s, it would have been used to eventually establish the 'benchmark' tones...as an author in a guitar mag stated some time back (paraphrased:) "if tubes were introduced in the 1970s, they would have been most likely rejected as being too grainy, too distorted, and imparting too much of their own personalities into the tone."

The point? There is no 'wrong' technology, just the wrong application of existing technology. High end esoteric tube preamps are great; midline solid state preamps are great....the type of preamp used has no bearing on the notes being played.

(but that's just my opinion...)
 
Amund,

> Mackie has specks that meets or exceeds any Telefunken. <

Then what's the argument?

> Dan Kennedy (Great River Electronics) said: <

I am not impressed by quotes - especially where one vendor denigrates another. And I don't believe in magic or superstition. If product A is better than product B, there has to be a reason. And the reason has to be real, meaningful, and measurable.

Gear like preamps should not have a sound - the goal is always to amplify what comes in the input, and send it out unchanged but louder. Any change to the quality as it passes through is a defect as far as I'm concerned.

My real point is that you don't need to buy $4000 preamps to make a good recording.

--Ethan
 
Morgan,

> There's a certain response that tubes have that transistors don't have ... its not better or worse, its just different. <

I would say that tubes are always worse for hi-fi applications, and sometimes better for guitar and bass amps.

> There is no 'wrong' technology

I agree, but it's important to distinguish between a device that is more accurate, and one that colors the sound in a way you happen to find pleasing.

> the type of preamp used has no bearing on the notes being played. <

Now that I really agree with!

It's the notes, stupid! :)

--Ethan
 
Gear like preamps should not have a sound - the goal is always to amplify what comes in the input, and send it out unchanged but louder. Any change to the quality as it passes through is a defect as far as I'm concerned.

That is my feeling also. But I think that we have to remember that it is still an opinion. Some people really LIKE the sound of certain types of colored equipment, and it seems really difficult to produce it any other way. In that sense, the preamp becomes part of the "tone production instrument".

It violates our desire to keep all the functions distinct, but it still produces good recordings. There is also the valid logic that since no preamp is truly perfect, we might as well have imperfections added that sound good.
 
Ethan I read over your post a couple of times and I am not sure I understand your points. So if I missed your issues please let me know.

But, If I did understand correctly then I have to disagree with your conclusions.

I would say that tubes are always worse for hi-fi applications, and sometimes better for guitar and bass amps.

This is totally inaccurate and implys that you can not get the same quality out of tubes that you can out of some other technology. The only reason a tube design has more noise is because of the components and the design. If you don't believe this then give the folks over at Manley or Millennia a call and tell them your opinions. I think you will find that they might disagree with your conclusions and can back it up with facts.

For example freq response of 2 Hz to beyond 300 kHz and total harmonic distortion of < .009% are good enough for me. :)

> There is no 'wrong' technology
I agree, but it's important to distinguish between a device that is more accurate, and one that colors the sound in a way you happen to find pleasing.

In my opinion this drum everyone beats about being "accurate" is crock. What is accurate ? EVERY aspect of music colors the sound.

For example:
The types of strings you select color the sound. The type of wood used, the humidity changes the tone etc, etc.

The only place where accuracy is even close is in orchestral recording. So to talk about accuracy in any type of modern recording context is a myth.

Every junior engineer starts out by learning about psychoacoustics and the perception of how we determine time and space so accuracy is all perception. So we all hear differently and accuracy is relative.

>the type of preamp used has no bearing on the notes being played.

Now that I really agree with!

It's the notes, stupid!

First I agree with the point you were trying to make and I have also complained about the fact that a lot of not enough people focus more on the music and less on the gear.

But also lets not forget this thread was more about how to capture that passion, that performance and those notes. So mic pres play a very important role in conveying the intent of the performance not just the accuracy of the performance.

I have been working with an artist on a project over a long period of time. The last time he came in for a session he had new strings on his guitar. This was a completely different sound that we have been working with so it had an effect on the mic selection the mic pre and mic placement. So here is an example of where accuracy was not the issue it was how to capture the most natual and pleasing tone of the guitar. In other words how to "color" the sound for the best recording.

I don't want to beat this issue to death but just remember we don't work in recording laboratories we work in recording studios and specs are only a very, very small part of the issue.

I will modify your point and say It's the sound, stupid. :)

And finally I think you were off base with your interruption of Dan's comments.

> Dan Kennedy (Great River Electronics) said: <

I am not impressed by quotes - especially where one vendor denigrates another. And I don't believe in magic or superstition. If product A is better than product B, there has to be a reason. And the reason has to be real, meaningful, and measurable.

Now he doesn't need me to defend him and lets face it, Dan has forgotten more about mic pre design than you or I will every know. But he was not putting down Greg or the Mackie products. He was simply pointing out that specs do not make a quality product.

He also didn't even mention his products or compare the two.
Dan Kennedy:
I don't mean to slam the Mackies either, because they really do a good job, especially at the price point, it's quite amazing.

But a preamp in a lot of ways is an instrument, and like any instrument it can be suited to the music, or not.

Ethan, when I am behind the console my job is to create an artificial reality not photograph accurate image. The performer is trying to convey an emotion, a vision and it is my job to use what every paint brush I can come up with to create that reality.

Yes you are right you don't have to buy a $1900 preamp to make a good recording, but when you mix 24 of tracks that were recorded through a Great River vs a Mackie there IS a difference. :)
 
Ethan I read over your post a couple of times and I am not sure I understand your points. So if I missed your issues please let me know.

But, If I did understand correctly then I have to disagree with your conclusions.

I would say that tubes are always worse for hi-fi applications, and sometimes better for guitar and bass amps.

This is totally inaccurate and implies that you can not get the same quality out of tubes that you can out of some other technology. The only reason a tube design has more noise is because of the components and the way the design that was used. If you don't believe this then give the folks over at Manley or Millennia a call and tell them your opinions. I think you will find that they might disagree with your conclusions and can back it up with facts.

For example freq response of 2 Hz to beyond 300 kHz and total harmonic distortion of < .009% are good enough for me. :)

> There is no 'wrong' technology

I agree, but it's important to distinguish between a device that is more accurate, and one that colors the sound in a way you happen to find pleasing.

In my opinion this drum everyone beats about being "accurate" is crock. What is accurate ? EVERY aspect of music colors the sound.

For example:
The types of strings you select color the sound. The type of wood used the humidity changes the tone etc, etc.

The only place where accuracy is even close is in orchestral recording. So to talk about accuracy in any type of modern recording context is a myth.

Every junior engineer starts out by learning about psychoacoustics and the perception of how we determine time and space so accuracy is all perception. My job is to create a virtual spatial reality and accuracy has nothing to do with. If this were the case then there sound never be an EQ on any console because that colors the accuracy.

>the type of preamp used has no bearing on the notes being played.

Now that I really agree with!

It's the notes, stupid!

First I agree with the point you were trying to make and I have also complained about the fact that a lot of not enough people focus more on the music and less on the gear.

But also lets not forget this thread was more about how to capture that passion, that performance and those notes. So mic pres play a very important role in conveying the intent of the performance not just the accuracy of the performance.

I don't want to beat this issue to death but just remember we don't work in recording laboratories we work in recording studios and specs are only a very, very small part of the issue.

I will modify your point and say It's the sound, stupid. :)

And finally I think you were way off base with your interruption of Dan's comments.

> Dan Kennedy (Great River Electronics) said: <

I am not impressed by quotes - especially where one vendor denigrates another. And I don't believe in magic or superstition. If product A is better than product B, there has to be a reason. And the reason has to be real, meaningful, and measurable.

Now he doesn't need me to defend him and lets face it, Dan has forgotten more about mic preamp design than you or I will every know. But he was not putting down Greg or the Mackie products. He was simply pointing out that specs do not tell the whole story. He also pointed out that for the money the Mackie does a good job.

Yes you are right you don't need a $4000 ($2000 in the case of a Great River) to make a good recording. But when you consider this is the cost of entire Mackie board you realize there is more going on here that just specs. And of course when you hear the two side by side every thing becomes pretty obvious. :D
 
20db.com said:

Yes you are right you don't need a $4000 ($2000 in the case of a Great River) to make a good recording. But when you consider this is the cost of entire Mackie board you realize there is more going on here that just specs. And of course when you hear the two side by side every thing becomes pretty obvious. :D


Thanks, 20db.com. I couldn`t have said it better.
This was my point too.

We all know that the performance is the most important, and this IS a gear forum......

Amund
 
Neve, thanks I hoped my point was taken as it was intented.

I should mention I am not an gear snob, in fact just the opposite. I think everyone should start out with a ceramic mic and a cassette player. LOL

The key is to get the BEST you can out what ever tools you have. The great part of our biz is that you get to experiment. You are encouraged to try new things and you have 1000's of great products to choose from. WOW and some people actually get paid to do this. :D

I think the guys who drive this point home for me are Foleys. These are the guys who create sound effects for movies. Think about it, the sound of Star Wars weapons were a metal wrench hitting a radio tower guy wire. Now if this isn't an example of the phrase "Its all about the sound" I don't know what is.

Good gear, like the MP-2NV is like the other fine things in life. It doesn't matter if it's a great sounding Martin, a really nice bottle of wine or a smooth white ash burning cigar. Quality, well made products stand out because of the creators talent, the extra time and effort and ingredients used.

So can we get through life without these fine things, of course we can but they sure make it just a little sweeter. :)

20db
 
Ethan:

I don't want to appear to be piling on. Especially because in the past your contributions on technical issues have been extremely valuable. But I think you may have gone astray on this issue.

There has always been a debate as to whether artistic evaluation and considerations can be reduced to objective data and specifications. Perhaps those of us who are artists first and engineers second have an internal romantic bias in this area, kind of like "John Henry versus The Machine". I'm assuming that maybe you are coming more from the technical side, so your biases might skew in the other direction.

But having admitted that bias, it is my honest belief that artistic evaluation can never be made purely on formulas and data. And my ears (and others with ears far more golden) have been supporting that contention for years.

Any manipulation we do to sound is technically distortion, but some forms of distortion are artistically pleasing and other forms sound like ass. To make a blanket statement that almost any form of distortion is undesireable and/or useless seems not only unnecessarily dogmatic, but to fly in the face of the historical body of recorded evidence.

The issue of Vintage vs. Modern gear is always a difficult one, in any area. It is easy to argue that vintage enthusiasts are merely mired in the past with no sense of realistic perspective (I'm guessing you would say: who would want a 1956 Chevy when you could have a 2002 Toyota???). But in aesthetic areas, the argument is less clear-cut. Obviously many owners of a vintage Stradivarius, Selmer, or Steinway would disagree with you. As would many owners of a Neumann U47 or an AKG C12.

What is interesting is that there are certain areas where vintage gear seems more desireable than others. For instance, the sound an LA2A or an 1176 is so sought after that companies have revived the models and are reproducing them as closely as possible. Same goes for Neve 1272's, 1073's etc. Others, like Soundelux, are trying to duplicate the sound of old Neumann microphones. Vintage Neve mixing boards are still preferred for tracking over brand new SSL's by many artists and producers who have unlimited budgets and could go anywhere they wanted.

And despite the advantages of modern design and manufacturing techniques, I doubt even you would trade a C12VR straight up for a C12. (If you would, please contact me IMMEDIATELY!!!!)

But, at least to my knowledge, there isn't the same aesthetic attachment to old speakers, and no one that i know of is trying to duplicate vintage loudspeakers. Maybe that is the one area in which Ethan's contention (new is almost always better) might be correct.

We all have our biases, and our own individual tastes. If the preamps you prefer happen to be high quality transparent solid state models of recent manufacture, clearly that is a decision that no one can say is WRONG. But I would hope that it is a decision based on your ears, and not on a specification sheet. It would be a tragic shame if you happened to inherit a studio filled with Manley, Telfunken, Tube Tech, Universal Audio, Neumann, etc. and traded it all for Mackie, Behringer, Marshall, and M-Audio gear because the specs were better. But if you ARE going to do it anyway, at least call me first!
 
What was the question?
Oh yeah, old technology vs. new.

You were wondering why a $200 pre of today can't compete with a $2000 pre of yester-year.

I think it would have to do with quality of components, number of units produced, and control of that production and control of the quality of those components.

Now, that's not to say that new technology can't compete with older technology or vice versa. But you have to be fair about it and compare apples to apples. Trying to compare an inexpensive (I wont say cheap) pre to a classic pre of yester-year is like trying to compare a toy guitar to a vintage martin or some VST Piano to a Stienway Concert Grand. It's not a fair comparison. Both are targeted towards different markets.

Can new technology compare and maybe even out do older "classic" technology? Absolutely it can! But not at a $200 price point!

I recently had the privilege to "demo" a Mellinnia Media mic pre. (Read New Technology) The one I demo-ed was the 8 channel model and ran about $3600. The one I was interested in was the 2 channel model, and ran about $2000. That's a pretty fair comparison, price wise, to some "classic" pre's.

The Mellinnia Media, HV3B, I think was the model number, was amazingly clean, even at very high gains. It also produced what I think were some of the most accurate recordings I have ever made. Is that (accuracy) a good thing? Depends on the listener, and the goal. The only thing I have to compare (side-by-side) the MM to is a pair of Audix 35102 mic pre's and at around $1650 for the pair, it seemed a pretty fair comparison. At least as fair I could make it.

Which one was better??
Again, that depends on the goal you're trying to acheive.
The MM was clearly much cleaner, especially at higher gains, than were the 35102's. Not only that, but the MM seemed to impart a spacial quality that was clearly absent in the 35102's.
Conversly, the 35102's with their in-line EQ's did a better job at shaping the sound the way I wanted to hear it. In fact it colored the sound to, what I would consider, a pleasing effect.

Niether one of them was necessarily "better" than the other, they were just different. I can see times when I'd certainly reach for the MM, and other times when I'd go straight to the 35102's. Again, it depends on the goal.


So:
Can New Technology compete with older "classic" technology?
Absolutely!
But don't expect it to happen for $200.
 
Specs do matter

Certainly specs do tell a part of the story. I am sure they do not in any way describe the ultimate sound, however, at the extremes, for the most part, the story is obvious. But, in relation to specs, components, design and manufacturing, it must be said that here, in professional audio, maybe more so that anywhere else, THE WHOLE IS GREATER THAN THE SUM OF THE PARTS. This much is clear and this is that elusive, intangible factor that cannot be quantized, measured or, for that matter, predicted in absolute terms. So in the end, Just Listen Stupid.
 
20,

> If you don't believe this then give the folks over at Manley or Millennia a call and tell them your opinions. <

Okay, I suppose if you are willing to pay $8000 for a Manley tube preamp you might be able to get quality as high as a $350 Mackie mixer. :) But why would you do that? Just to be able to say you're using tubes?

> For example freq response of 2 Hz to beyond 300 kHz and total harmonic distortion of < .009% are good enough for me. :) <

Yep, that's good enough for me too. But now we're back to high accuracy, and away from having a tube sound.

> EVERY aspect of music colors the sound. ... The types of strings you select color the sound. The type of wood used, the humidity ... The only place where accuracy is even close is in orchestral recording. <

Violins sound different with different strings, and they change their tone with humidity too. (I play the cello in an orchestra.) All of which is beside the point. The accuracy of analog circuitry relates to how well it can process a signal, independant of what went into shaping the original sound.

> when I am behind the console my job is to create an artificial reality not photograph accurate image. <

I agree 100%. I saw an interview in a recent Sound On Sound magazine where they interviewed a reverb designer from Lexicon. He said he's more interested in creating reverb algorithms that sound good, and doesn't care if they could ever actually occur in a real room.

> The performer is trying to convey an emotion, a vision and it is my job to use what every paint brush I can come up with to create that reality. <

No argument. But again the issue is distinguishing accuracy from pleasant sounding.

--Ethan
 
Little (Dog?),

> I don't want to appear to be piling on. <

Not at all! Not only do I never take any of this personally, but I am quite capable of defending my positions. :)

> There has always been a debate as to whether artistic evaluation and considerations can be reduced to objective data and specifications. <

Of course, but that's not what I'm discussing. I agree there is no formula for a good guitar tone. The only point I am addressing is factors that relate to accuracy in amplification. How you get the sound, and how you alter it later, are all in the realm of art. But when someone says that Brand X's tube preamp is better than Brand Y's solid state preamp, the focus then must be on accuracy of amplification. Put another way, a preamp should not be thought of as a sound shaper. At least not to me anyway. A compressor may be considered as a sound shaper, but generally (though not always) you want a device that controls the levels for you as transparently as possible.

> who would want a 1956 Chevy when you could have a 2002 Toyota? <

Sure, but that's totally different. The Chevy may look cooler, but to a blind passenger any esthetic advantage is lost. Likewise, having a cool Telefunken logo on your vocal mike might impress the client singing into it, but the listener on the radio has no idea and surely doesn't care either.

> the sound an LA2A or an 1176 is so sought after ... Same goes for Neve 1272's, 1073's ... Vintage Neve mixing boards are still preferred for tracking over brand new SSL's by many artists and producers who have unlimited budgets <

Sure, and lots of folks buy expensive diamonds that are indistinguishable from a piece of glass, or a brand name dish detergent that's exactly the same as the store brand. In fact, I'll go so far as to say it's pretty pathetic if a professional audio engineer can't make a good recording without some particular piece of gear.

> It would be a tragic shame if you happened to inherit a studio filled with Manley, Telfunken, Tube Tech, Universal Audio, Neumann, etc. and traded it all for Mackie, Behringer, Marshall, and M-Audio gear because the specs were better. But if you ARE going to do it anyway, at least call me first! <

ROF,L. You're on!

--Ethan
 
I think an important factor that has been hinted at, if not mentioned directly, is the importance of attracting customers.

Even if a mackie sounded twice as good as a neve (and that's a BIG hypothetically-speaking kinda' if), clients would still be much more willing to use your services if they new you had a neve board. So the dollar value a given piece of gear can command on the market has a lot to do with things other than their actual sound. And the name itself makes it a more valuable piece of equipment because it can help you lure higher-paying clients.

Granted, people wouldn't demand it if it sounded like a horse's ass, but they don't necessarily understand the sonic differences.

As much as they'd like to think they do. ;)
 
I think there are two issues here, one, If vintage gear is still around today and well appreciated, that probably means it was the best of the best when it was designed, it is impossible to compare the best mic preamp from 30 years ago to an okay one from today, and expect the okay one from today to sound better. There are hundreds of preamps produced today, maybe 5-10 of them will last into the next generation as respected vintage gear.

THe second is that tube technology, is generally considered to be enhancing, though my only experience is guitar amps. Sometimes the cold, hard solid state truth can hurt. Maybe its just that enhanced sound that we want.

Also, do tube preamps enahnced qualities actually come from "design flaws," or maybe more accurately limits of technology, or did designers of the past recognize and simply embrace these qualities. Were tubes the best they could do, or lucky mistakes?

Eric
 
At first Tubes were all they had. And for some reason they have survived all these years. And have been resurected to help the digital stuff sound better.

But as far as it goes , I feel that the tubes used in the new gear made in russia are infereior to the older Mullard or telefunken tubes, but the designs of the Peavey vtp-2 has been compared to the old pultechs soundwise using the sovtecs

I use a tube pre exclusively for vocals and solo accoustic guitar, but I use the clean one for most everything else.
 
Ethan Winer said:
But when someone says that Brand X's tube preamp is better than Brand Y's solid state preamp, the focus then must be on accuracy of amplification. Put another way, a preamp should not be thought of as a sound shaper. At least not to me anyway. A compressor may be considered as a sound shaper, but generally (though not always) you want a device that controls the levels for you as transparently as possible.

So is the argument against vintage gear vs. modern, or solid state vs. tubes? Certainly certain tube designs can be extraordinarily transparent, just as certain solid state designs can have a very colored sound (e.g. Neve, API, Distressor). That has nothing to do with vintage vs. modern. And a preamp can very much be used to shape sound. The most transparent preamp and microphone may not be one's first choice on a lead vocal - rather it's the preamp/mic combo that sounds the best.

The extension of your argument for accuracy would have to apply to mics as well. Does that mean you would always chose an Earthworks QTC or some other small diaphragm "measurement-style" mic regardless of the situation? And you would never use a U47 or an Elam or a C12 or an RCA ribbon? I doubt it. So why is your criteria for a preamp any different? If the preamp has to be accurate, the whole signal chain should be as well.


Ethan Winer said:

...having a cool Telefunken logo on your vocal mike might impress the client singing into it, but the listener on the radio has no idea and surely doesn't care either.

While Chessrock may have alluded to buying gear to impress clients, that is not part of my argument. You are right - the listener on the radio, assuming they can get past the additional broadcast compression, is only concerned with one thing - does the music sound great? That's why the engineers, hopefully, chose their tracking and mixing gear - to make the best possible sounding product. That involves artistic decisions that are not always the same as making the "most accurate" sounding product.


Ethan Winer said:

...lots of folks buy expensive diamonds that are indistinguishable from a piece of glass, or a brand name dish detergent that's exactly the same as the store brand. In fact, I'll go so far as to say it's pretty pathetic if a professional audio engineer can't make a good recording without some particular piece of gear.

This is an unworthy argument, Ethan. I doubt even you can say with a straight face that the only difference between a Mackie and a Rupert Neve designed desk is the brand name? And it is a given that a great engineer will be able to make a decent product even on a mini-disk recorder. But it certainly won't be the tool of choice for most situations.

Here's what it boils down to, and correct me if I'm wrong. You are saying, it doesn't matter what one's ears tell you - if the gear specs out as "accurate" then it is more useful than a "less accurate" piece that adds color/distortion. And the corallary is that if you have an $800 mixer that specs out as "accurate", using a mixer that costs 10x or 100x as much is purely a waste of money.

Let's also insert the fact that even "specs" are not always objective (the testing methodology can be manipulated, and specs are, after all, just another form of raw data that still has to be interpreted, and like statistics, can be slanted in their presentation).

But it still comes down to sound and ears. If you want to insist that you would be perfectly happy with your Mackie for every situation, and would prefer not to have the choice of an API, Universal Audio, Helios, Neve, Joe Meek, Summit, Focusrite, Vipre, etc.... well, it's your right and your decision.

But it seems to me it's kind of like trying to paint a rainbow with only black paint. If you are a really great artist you may be able to pull it off, but even that artist might really prefer a palette of colors, given the choice. There is no question that choosing a particular mic and preamp combination on a particular voice and/or instrument is very much a part of the skill and art of engineering. Otherwise, we'd all just have the same mic and same preamp and use it on everything.

Even in my own small studio, the choice of preamps makes a huge difference in the ultimate product. And it doesn't even matter what my "brand prejudices" are - I always let the artist make the final choice in a blind listening test. And they notice drastic differences - often they can pick out their particular favorite combination repeatedly over a large number of trials. And you know, I think if you were also choosing based on blind listening - YOU WOULDN'T ALWAYS GO FOR ACCURACY EITHER!!!

The bottom line is I'm guessing you would be hard pressed to find any top engineers that would agree with your position. Admittedly, nobody should care about brand names, but nobody should care about specs either. If you can get a great sound on an instrument using two Dixie Cups and a string, then that's what you should use. Since it's all about sound, why not just use the gear that gets you the sound you are looking for?

Anyway, some of the greatest artists/geniuses have been iconoclasts. The whole world may think you are being silly, but maybe you'll prove us all wrong. Or then again, maybe you're just being silly... I guess we'll never know which until someone drags you over to do some blind listening and we see what your preferences are in an objective test.
;)

As always, I enjoy the exchange of ideas with you, Ethan!
 
LD,

> So is the argument against vintage gear vs. modern, or solid state vs. tubes? <

Originally it was a discussion of vintage versus modern. And the first point I made is that the mystique of vintage gear probably comes from beginners who are dissatisfied with their mixes. They hear great recordings of the past and wrongly assume they need the same old gear to duplicate that. When they can't afford a vintage compressor, the audio stores are happy to sell them a newer model that uses tubes claiming it's just as good.

> The extension of your argument for accuracy would have to apply to mics as well. <

Mostly. But a large diaphragm mike with its proximity effect does usually sound fuller for vocals than a "measurement" mike. And larger diaphragm mikes usually have a better signal to noise ratio because the larger diaphragm yields more signal.

> So why is your criteria for a preamp any different? If the preamp has to be accurate, the whole signal chain should be as well. <

What bothers me most is that vendors want to have it both ways. I often see the words "warm," "transparent," and "accurate" all in the same sentence in ads for preamps.

> I doubt even you can say with a straight face that the only difference between a Mackie and a Rupert Neve designed desk is the brand name? <

I dunno. What's the difference? A modern Mackie is probably cleaner, no? It's easy to dirty up the sound with a plug-in or other effect, but you can never make gritty audio sound cleaner.

> You are saying, it doesn't matter what one's ears tell you <

Not at all. The ears always win. But measurement technology is advanced enough that the two pretty much always correlate.

> if you have an $800 mixer that specs out as "accurate", using a mixer that costs 10x or 100x as much is purely a waste of money. <

Yeah, pretty much. The very expensive brands claim to be very accurate, so it's not like you're spending the extra money to get a particular character. Of course, with mixers the additional money also buys you more channels and more features in each channel. But with all else being equal, I'll buy the cheapest gear that is accurate enough that you can't tell it's in the signal path.

> If you ... would prefer not to have the choice of an API, Universal Audio, Helios, Neve, Joe Meek, Summit, Focusrite, Vipre, etc. <

It's not that I wouldn't like the choice. More options is always better than fewer. But I object to the notion that you have to spend $3000 for a mike preamp to get a good recording. A few months ago in a Mix interview, a famous engineer said she could get a great sound with pretty much any mike, and what mattered most was the room and the players. I agree, and I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference what mike or preamp you use, not counting obvious junk like a $20 mike from Radio Shack. And of course a decent condenser mike is needed for anything with a lot of treble content - you'll never get a good cymbal sound with a dynamic mike, no matter how much it costs.

> it seems to me it's kind of like trying to paint a rainbow with only black paint. <

Not at all. But I don't see preamps as tone shapers. That's what EQ is for. Sure, you could buy an assortment of expensive and varied preamps just for tone shaping. But why bother? Using a mike that has a certain response is the same as using a flat mike with an EQ set to the same response. (Within reason - EQ can never restore frequencies that weren't captured in the first place.) I always laugh when a magazine mike review says something like "the added presence at 5 KHz was very noticeable and really helped the sound." So why not just use a flat mike and add a little EQ?

I have a pair of audiotechnica 4033s that I love. A friend of mine has a small commercial studio and last year bought his first Neumann, a TLM103. I asked him why he paid so much more for the Neumann when a 4033 is just as good. He said he wants to impress his clients, which is valid. Then we put both mikes side by side and recorded me singing into them both. When we played them back the Neumann sounded a little brighter. We looked at the published frequency response and the Neumann had a slight boost at 5 KHz. Then we EQ'd the 4033 to have the same curve and could no longer hear any difference.

I know the above was a long story, but the moral is important.

> The bottom line is I'm guessing you would be hard pressed to find any top engineers that would agree with your position. <

That doesn't bother me at all. I have a lot of positions on other, non-audio subjects that I know are correct but in the minority. Mostly in matters of consumerism, politics, and religion. For example, a very large number of people believe in ghosts. That doesn't mean ghosts are real.

> I guess we'll never know which until someone drags you over to do some blind listening and we see what your preferences are in an objective test. <

Yes, a blind test is more important than all the opinions in the world!

> As always, I enjoy the exchange of ideas with you <

Likewise.

--Ethan
 
I'd rather drive a 70s Hemi 'Cuda than a 2002 hyundai.

Come to think of it, I'd rather drive a 73 'stang fastback than a 2002 mustang.

Change for the purpose of change is not always good.
 
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