Presence frequencies???

[minerman]

OK, so I've been running an eq (4 band that's in my POD X3Live) in the loop of my DSL-1.....Since it lacks a presence knob, I'm assuming I can get similar results by boosting (or cutting) with the high shelf of my eq....what I'm wondering is, does anyone know what frequencies the presence knob boosts/cuts on different amps (like a Plexi, JCM 800, etc)???

From what I can find, the usual tonestack frequencies are:


Bass........ around 100Hz
Mid.......... around 800Hz
Treble....... around 9-10Khz
Presence... around 6Khz

I've read up on the presence being in the power section, & the negative feedback thing, I've even tried the Tonestack Calculator thing, but I honestly know nothing about schematics really, & none of the info (except what I posted above) has been any help....

What I'm hoping to do, is make my little DSL-1 sound more like a Plexi, JCM, JVM, etc., by using the eq. I already know I'm not gonna get there 100%, but like the EVH tone thing I was after, I really don't expect to be "exact", just in the ballpark....any help???

Greg, Lt. Bob, or any of you guys know anything about what I'm asking???

 

[Greg_L]

Interesting little challenge you're undertaking there. I think your tone frequencies are pretty accurate. The presence knob in my opinion is fantastic for live use, and a horrible evil sumbitch for recording. For me personally, I keep it on 0 on pretty much any amp when recording. It's horrendous. Any real attempt at trying to sound good usually comes with no presence at all for me....or very very little. I don't know what you'll have to do to get that little DSL sounding like the beasts you listed, but I think you got your work cut out for you. I'm not sure what frequencies the presence knob affects on different amps. It is indeed a negative feedback filter/control. Different amps have different types and amounts of negative feedback so how the presence knob interacts with it is going to vary. I've read that on some Mesas the presence control is actually artificial because in some modes Mesas have no negative feedback at all. Marshall's master volume MkII's (800s and JMPs) have relatively very little negative feedback in stock form. That's why they sound so balls to the wall at pretty much any volume. Those old Plexis/Super Leads actually had pretty high negative feedback, as far as I know. They stayed pretty tight and then all at once all hell would break loose. I don't understand schematics either, and just have a rudimentary understanding of negative feedback, but that's what I know of it. You might pull off 800-ish sounds with moderate gain on the DSL's classic channel and the biggest volume you can muster, but I think a Plexi/Super Lead sound will be tough. The JVM has a lot of negative feedback. It's designed to stay tight and articulate even at massive volumes. I modded mine to have a neg feedback adjustment with a simple pot. I can make it tight like stock, or crazy wide open full power tube meltdown like an 800 or JMP MkII. Or somewhere in between. The JVM doesn't really have it's own signature sound, it sounds like all Marshalls, so you're in luck there.

 

[minerman]

Thanks Greg,
Yeah, I know it's probably a longshot getting my DSL to sound like a Plexi, but, if I could come close, it'd be worth it...to me anyway...

What I'd thought of doing, is find/download clip of the amp(s) I'm trying to ape/mimic, & put 'em in the daw, then use a spectrum analyzer thingie to mimic the frequency response/curve....Of course, there'll be so many variables, that I'll probably never nail it completely, but with the eq, od/stompboxes & some good 'ol fashioned tweaking/work, I think I might be able to get in the ballpark with a couple of the amps I mentioned....

I did this once with a Rock Band multi-track of "Double Vision" by Foreigner, & pretty much nailed it with my Tweaker, Greenback, '57 mic, & Strat (w/humbucker in the bridge)....And, believe it or not, I used pretty much the same mic positon, guitar, & amp settings, & got pretty close to "Them Bones" by Alice In Chains, I just had to use an od to bump the gain a little....

Any chance you could record/upload a clip of your Plexi for me??? Maybe have everything set on "5" for just a flat/baseline type thing (or whatever you think might work better)??? If not, no biggie, I'm sure I can find some clips on the 'net somewhere, but I was thinking maybe you could set the amp like I mentioned, & mic up one of your Greenback speakers....It wouldn't have to be much really, maybe a couple power chords, & let 'em just ring/sustain out...I've got all kinds of software I could use to get the eq/frequency curve thing....

Lemme know, no biggie either way dude, I'm really happy with my DSL-1, but I think I can get a few more different/versatile tones out of this little thing, so I'm gonna give it a shot...The tone chase never ends, does it??

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Off topic - I haven't played the DSL-1, but I spent some time with a JCM-1 and JVM-1 over the weekend, and I LOVED them. Awesome little amps, and I'm not normally a Marshall guy.

I'm kind of with Greg, with a few caveats. On my Mesa Rectifier Roadster, I GENERALLY run the presence pretty low, for my lead sounds - either all the way off or in the bottom quarter of its throw. It smooths the amp out and makes it a little more fluid feeling, I think. For rhythm sounds, honestly, the presence knob is one of the more powerful knobs on a Recto - it completely reshapes the midrange, thicker and more lower-mid focused at the lower range, and crunchier and more upper-mid focused in the higher range, at least on Modern mode (and I think this is the amp Greg is talking about, where part of Modern mode's sound is stripping negative feedback out of the poweramp). When tracking rhythm I tend to leave the presence up a bit, 1/2-2/3 and rarely full up, partly because it does give a great heavy crunch that sits very well in a mix and partly because doing so also clears up the lower midrange and frees some space for my lower-mid-heavy lead tone.

How this helps you I have no clue, but I'm waiting for the coffee to kick in, so...

 

[Greg_L]

Any chance you could record/upload a clip of your Plexi for me???

I'd be happy to bud....if I had one. Lol. I don't have a Plexi. I'd love to have one, but even I have to draw the line at over the top loudness somewhere. They're essentially useless in every practical sense without an attenuator. My new old Marshall is a JMP 2204. A 50w master volume amp. The solution to the non-master volume madness of the Super Lead line up. It's the model between the old 4-hole Plexi/Super Leads and the JCM 800s. Think Back in Black and late 70s hard rock and early metal. That's the general sound of this thing. It's in the shop though getting a physical and a general checkup. I can record for you if you're interested when I get it back. It's got it's own sound.

 

[minerman]

Drew: I've not played through any of the 1 watters except the DSL-1, & I love it to be honest. For me it's the best piece of recording gear I've had, if I had the $$$ to blow, I'd buy all the 1w amps, with the exception of the JTM, I really would have to interest in that amp at all....


Greg: Wow dude, work must be really getting to me, I've read your new amp thread several times, dunno why I asked you to record your Plexi for me.... But yeah, whenever you get it back, just throw a mic in front of your GB cab, & hit a couple power chords for me, I'd really appreciate it......A clip or two of your other Marshalls would be cool too, but don't go through any extra trouble for me, if you're recording something, just a power chord or two for me should work.....

ToneFinder

This site has lots of clips of different amps, so I can find something I could use, like I mentioned, either way, no biggie, there's tons of clips I could use on the 'net, & don't want you to go through any trouble just for me.....To be honest, I don't know how close I can get to these other amps anyway, as my gear is good for what it is, but I'm kinda limited in a way, & for this "experiment"/tone chase, I don't wanna use software/post-processing, I'm going for the "source" sound.....if it's possible.....thanks dude!!!

 

[Greg_L]

A couple powerchords is about as good as I am anyway, so no problem there!

When I get it back I'll knock some shit out for you.

 

[minerman]

Thanks dude,
The site I linked has a lot of clips, but using one of yours, I'd know exactly what was used, to be honest, it'd be hard to say what was really used on some of the clips on that site...No hurry at all, I may even go look at your other threads, & see if I can grap a clip or two of your other amps too.....thanks again!!!

Edit: Just downloaded your clip in the JMP thread dude, so you really don't have to record a new one just for me....I think this should be enough, & honestly, don't know if my little DSL is gonna do it or not...we'll see I suppose....thanks again!!!

BTW, gonna go through all your amp threads, & download some more of your clips!!!

 

[Greg_L]

Look in the new tone thread. I've got a lot of still active clips in there with different settings and speakers. Mostly the JVM.

 

[minerman]

Already ahead of you dude, it's gonna take me a day or two to find/download the amp clips I'm after, but I'm gonna give this a shot.....I've found a couple/few nice Plexi clips in the Marshall forum too, so it's all good, except for me actually getting my 'lil Marshall to sound like one of those monsters....

 

[Greg_L]

Already ahead of you dude, it's gonna take me a day or two to find/download the amp clips I'm after, but I'm gonna give this a shot.....I've found a couple/few nice Plexi clips in the Marshall forum too, so it's all good, except for me actually getting my 'lil Marshall to sound like one of those monsters....

I'll redo the JMP clip. That was just a quick and nasty. When I get it back all freshened up I'll do one with more thought put into it.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Already ahead of you dude, it's gonna take me a day or two to find/download the amp clips I'm after, but I'm gonna give this a shot.....I've found a couple/few nice Plexi clips in the Marshall forum too, so it's all good, except for me actually getting my 'lil Marshall to sound like one of those monsters....

You know, part of it is just not overthinking it. IIRC, the DSL clean is VERY clean, and not very Marshall-y - it was their attempt at a "Fender clean" if I recall. So, I'd try the gain channel, preamp gain pretty low to add a little bit of grit, and then just crank the master. That should get you as close to the "plexi" sound as you can get with that amp.

Strangely, the JTM-1 you're not terribly interested in is the one that would be likely to get you the closest to plexi territory...

 

[minerman]

Greg: No worries dude, like I mentioned, I can get all kinds of clips on the 'net, the best part of yours are I know the amp settings, p'ups used, speakers, etc., most, if not all of the "other" clips I won't have this info.....I'm gonna go look in the toan thread & download some of your JCM 900 & JVM clips too....IIRC, there's a couple JCM 800 clips in there from Seeker of Rock (I think....)...thanks again, wish me luck!!!!!

You know, part of it is just not overthinking it. IIRC, the DSL clean is VERY clean, and not very Marshall-y - it was their attempt at a "Fender clean" if I recall. So, I'd try the gain channel, preamp gain pretty low to add a little bit of grit, and then just crank the master. That should get you as close to the "plexi" sound as you can get with that amp.

Strangely, the JTM-1 you're not terribly interested in is the one that would be likely to get you the closest to plexi territory...

Thanks Drew,
I'm just not interested in the JTM-1, because I'm a gain-geek really, that, & I don't really like the single tone knob & lack of fx loop to be honest. I may be wrong (& I probably am about this), but I think the JTM-1 was modeled after the Bluesbreaker. I'm sure it's a kick ass amp, but I really have no interest in either....The plexi tones I'd like to have are EVH-ish stuff to be honest. I can get kinda close with my setup, but it still lacks the biting high end, & "roundness" all rolled into one. This is why I'm gonna try the eq thing, to see if I can get it any closer with the gear I already have.....

On the Marshall 1w thing, the first choice for me was the JCM-1, & I probably could've had one, but the fx loop was a deal breaker for me to be honest. I know lots of famous players ran their fx into the front of the amp, but for me, the dirt goes in front, & pretty much the rest is in the loop (except maybe a wah...or volume pedal, I've been using the vol pedal on my POD to get the cleaned up/vol knob rolled down thing, works pretty good, I can set how much it cuts when pulled all the way back...IE: all the down/heel can be anywhere from 0-100%)....

And yes, the DSL's clean is very clean. I have to dime both the vol & gain to get any kind of breakup from it at all. You're probably right about the Fender thing, as again, it's very clean....

Another thing I'm gonna try is slaving the DSL-1 into my Tweaker. The T15 has a decent Marshall type sound (actually there's no comparison between the DSL & T15's gain-y sounds to me though, not even close), with the Russian 6P3S power tubes, it may help the little DSL along too....Although I'll be bypassing the T15's pre-amp, I can still get the power tubes to break up, & might sound cool.....maybe....

I did start my project in the daw today, I downloaded Greg's newest Marshall clip, & another one or two from guys in the Marshall forum that have pretty much the sound I'm after. Only thing about the other guy's clips, there's fx on it, which will make it a little harder (for me) to try & dial in the core/base tone.....

I'll keep you guys posted, I've got some options here still I haven't tried, so maybe, just maybe I can get a little closer with the gear I have now, & not have to spend any more $$$ for a while.....

Thanks!!!!!

 

[ecc83]

FWIIW,
The "presence" control on a great many guitar amps is a misnomer*.

The controls tend to fall into two camps. A straight top chop, e.g. the pot and cap across the PI anodes in some marks of AC30 and the very common feedback to the PI top chop on many 50 and 100watters.

It is CALLED a presence control because although it cuts all frequencies above the turnover point, because the speaker filters everything past about 8kHz, 'tis presence!

*Same for so called gain controls. Most often these are simply interstage volume controls. A proper gain control changes feedback and does not cause infinite attenuation. Mind you, some amps cheat and put a few 100Ohms in the bottom of the pot track to simulate this!

Dave.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Thanks Drew,
I'm just not interested in the JTM-1, because I'm a gain-geek really, that, & I don't really like the single tone knob & lack of fx loop to be honest. I may be wrong (& I probably am about this), but I think the JTM-1 was modeled after the Bluesbreaker. I'm sure it's a kick ass amp, but I really have no interest in either....The plexi tones I'd like to have are EVH-ish stuff to be honest. I can get kinda close with my setup, but it still lacks the biting high end, & "roundness" all rolled into one. This is why I'm gonna try the eq thing, to see if I can get it any closer with the gear I already have.....

On the Marshall 1w thing, the first choice for me was the JCM-1, & I probably could've had one, but the fx loop was a deal breaker for me to be honest. I know lots of famous players ran their fx into the front of the amp, but for me, the dirt goes in front, & pretty much the rest is in the loop (except maybe a wah...or volume pedal, I've been using the vol pedal on my POD to get the cleaned up/vol knob rolled down thing, works pretty good, I can set how much it cuts when pulled all the way back...IE: all the down/heel can be anywhere from 0-100%)....

And yes, the DSL's clean is very clean. I have to dime both the vol & gain to get any kind of breakup from it at all. You're probably right about the Fender thing, as again, it's very clean....

Could you potentially mod the JCM-1 to work with an FX loop? I have no idea what the circuit looks like, but I'm also pretty sure the original Plexis didn't have FX loops either so that's not exactly unprecedented.

Also, keep in mind that a Plexi actually doesn't have a whole heck of a lot of preamp gain - that sound is the sound of an EL34 power section getting driven HARD. You can get plenty of awesome sounds out of a distorted preamp, but if you're chasing the EVH brown sound that's not the way to go.

EDIT - oh, and I like gain too, don't get me wrong. But EVH wasn't really a distorted preamp sort of guy.

 

[minerman]

Could you potentially mod the JCM-1 to work with an FX loop? I have no idea what the circuit looks like, but I'm also pretty sure the original Plexis didn't have FX loops either so that's not exactly unprecedented.

Also, keep in mind that a Plexi actually doesn't have a whole heck of a lot of preamp gain - that sound is the sound of an EL34 power section getting driven HARD. You can get plenty of awesome sounds out of a distorted preamp, but if you're chasing the EVH brown sound that's not the way to go.

EDIT - oh, and I like gain too, don't get me wrong. But EVH wasn't really a distorted preamp sort of guy.

Yeah man, I'm sure I could've installed the Zero Loss loop thing, but, it would've killed any of the collectible thing the JCM-1 had (if it will have any...), so I got the DSL-1 instead....I actually had a hard time deciding between the DSL-1 & JVM-1, the thing that made me choose the DSL-1 was the master volume for each channel. The JVM-1 has 2 channels, but only a volume knob for the clean....but, the JVM-1 has a presence knob, & that's really what this thread is about for me, trying to simulate/mimic a presence knob with eq in the loop of my DSL-1...

And yeah, I already know a Plexi doesn't have a lot of pre-amp gain, it's the power section that sounds so good....I'm kinda chasing the brown sound in a way, but in a way I'm not....I know this sounds stupid (as I usually do ), but I've got about as close as I'm gonna get with the gear I have, other than using the eq in the loop. I already know I'm not gonna nail any of these tones 100%, but just wanna get in the ballpark. Here's a clip of a guy who nails the brown sound (IMO) using a modded Super Lead at low-ish volume (not my clip, if it was this thread wouldn't exist):



Here's Greg's JVM with a Greenback speaker:

If you take the reverb out of the first clip (which I can't do), I think the tones are similar, the Super Lead has more high end (IMO), & more gain. If Greg put more high end & gain on his JVM, I think it would be close to the first clip.....of course, I could be wrong (& I probably am...), but to me, the two tones have a lot of similarities....

Here's a YouTube clip of a guy getting pretty close to the brown sound at low volumes with pedals:
Van Halen - Distorted Phase, Echo & Chorus Tricks - YouTube

And, I know a lot of the tone is in the hands/player too, there are so many factors/variables that it would be impossible for me to get someone else's tone exactly, but I could get in the ballpark....I think...

Gonna grab a bite to eat, & then I'll try my luck at some of these tones.....should be back in a couple/few hours to let you know if I've pulled my hair out or not....

 

[minerman]

OK guys,
So, I'm a day late & a clip or two short , but I have been able to make a little progress in my experiment/test, I've downloaded a bunch of tones, & found, the Plexi is gonna be really hard for me to replicate/mimic to be honest, it's the way the high end sounds on the clips I've got, when I boost with the eq, it gets kinda there, but can get really shrill/nasty sounding if I go any more with it.....I'm not giving up though, it's just gonna be a little harder than I first thought....Of course, I could use an eq in the daw, but it kinda defeats the purpose of the whole thing, I wanna try to get it at the source.....

I've managed to get pretty close to Greg's JVM with my setup, & close to a Marshall 2203 too (it's boosted with a Tubescreamer & running through a Celestion G12-65...I have no idea who's clip it is, but to me, it sounds great)....they still need some work/tweaking (I think I've about got the high end, need to get the lows & mids sorted...needs that "chunk"), but I'm on the right track anyway....

The high shelf boost I'm using to get close to these tones is about 4db @ around 5khz...I'm also boosting the low end (3db @ 275hz), but again, I still need to work on the low end & the mids a little more....I'm getting there on these 2 tones though, & should have a clip or two in the next couple days...I don't have fucking time for anything really through the week, working 2nd shift sucks ass, but, I gotta do what I gotta do.....

I did try slaving my DSL-1 into the fx return of my Tweaker, & while it was ok, it really didn't bring anything better than the DSL-1 can do on it's own, except more volume....I'll try it again when I can dime the T15, while my ISO does a good job, it still makes a little low end rumble if I have the T15's master over 2-3, & don't wanna disturb the wife, she went back to work last week (after a 5-6 year break......wish I could take a 5-6 year break... )....She actually told me she's gonna buy me some new music toys before long, so I'm crackin' the whip on her, told her "get your ass out the door & make some extra $$$"....

Any tips/suggestions/help is welcome....I know you can't tell me anything until I post the clips , but any advice would be appreciated anyway!!

 

[groovyisland]

have you tried losing the tone pots on your guitar? eddie likes the sound that way.

i have a couple of guitars that i rewired without the tone pots

gives a brighter sound

i assume that youre trying for van halen 1 type sound

 

[minerman]

groovyisland: Well, I'd love to be able to nail that tone, but to be honest, I don't think I'll be able to get it 100% really. So many variables, plus, I'm me, & will always sound like...me!!! Good tip on the tone knob, dunno if I'll try it or not, as I installed a Seymour Duncan Custom Custom in my Ibanez a little while back, & for me, it gets pretty close (a lot better than the stock p'up I replaced anyway)....Here's a couple clips of my "2203" tone, one's just a single guitar, & the other is a shitty little mix to hear the guitars with other instruments.....

Ibanez > POD X3Live (4-cable method, od/distortion in front, eq in loop) > DSL-1 > Greenback > SM57
DSL-1 settings:1w modeUltra Gain channelVol: 9Gain: 2-3Bass: 10Mid: 3-4Treble: 10Deep switch: offMid shift: off
Tubescreamer (POD)Drive: 0, Level: 75, Tone: 70
EQ (POD)3db boost @ 275hz4db boost @ 5khz
Guitars are double tracked & panned @ 75% L & R....The only post processing on the guitars in the daw are a high/low pass filter (@ 50hz & 12500khz). Drums are Superior (Rock Solid EZX), & the bass is recorded di straight into my interface, ran through an ampsim....Do you guys think this needs to be moved to the Tone Thread??? If the mods think so, please do....and lemme know what you guys think about the tones....off to work I go, but I'll be back in about 12 hours or so to hear what you guys have to say...thanks in advance!!!

 

[Greg_L]

groovyisland: Well, I'd love to be able to nail that tone, but to be honest, I don't think I'll be able to get it 100% really. So many variables, plus, I'm me, & will always sound like...me!!! Good tip on the tone knob, dunno if I'll try it or not, as I installed a Seymour Duncan Custom Custom in my Ibanez a little while back, & for me, it gets pretty close (a lot better than the stock p'up I replaced anyway)....Here's a couple clips of my "2203" tone, one's just a single guitar, & the other is a shitty little mix to hear the guitars with other instruments.....Ibanez > POD X3Live (4-cable method, od/distortion in front, eq in loop) > DSL-1 > Greenback > SM57DSL-1 settings:1w modeUltra Gain channelVol: 9Gain: 2-3Bass: 10Mid: 3-4Treble: 10Deep switch: offMid shift: offTubescreamer (POD)rive: 0Level: 75Tone: 70EQ (POD)3db boost @ 275hz4db boost @ 5khzGuitars are double tracked & panned @ 75% L & R....The only post processing on the guitars in the daw are a high/low pass filter (@ 50hz & 12500khz). Drums are Superior (Rock Solid EZX), & the bass is recorded di straight into my interface, ran through an ampsim....Do you guys think this needs to be moved to the Tone Thread??? If the mods think so, please do....and lemme know what you guys think about the tones....off to work I go, but I'll be back in about 12 hours or so to hear what you guys have to say...thanks in advance!!!

I think those are pretty good, but a little thin. They're missing that cab shaking chunk and plonk that the big amps deliver. If I'm reading that right, I see you've got the bass dimed? I'm needing more bass and less highs in that tone, personally. It's got nice grit and base tone, but it's just not very full. Try it with the "deep switch" engaged. Or move the mic further from center.