Preamp Price point or "Is it good yet"

[Simman]

Sometimes gear upgrades (even modest ones) are a good thing.

I always like gear upgrades! Can hardly wait for some new stuff.

 

[chessrock]

The difference between the mixer and the DMP3 with semi-skilled me using it was quite significant. The sound improvement that I had labored to get with the mixer, (and couldn't) was there immediately, simply by plugging the DMP3 in.

With all due respect, Omtayslick, you do make some good points.

But you really have to make an exception when you're talking about the mighty B. Anything will very likely be a significant step up from that, and I think that should just go without saying.

It's when you start going up from the DMP3 that you'll notice the laws of diminishing returns taking effect, so you have to be really careful about weighing just how serious you are and if the added expense is justified for what you're doing.

 

[omtayslick]

But you really have to make an exception when you're talking about the mighty B. Anything will very likely be a significant step up from that, and I think that should just go without saying.

Yeah Chess, You've got a point. I have 2 ecm8000's I use for drums, and they're fine. But after the mixer experience that will likely be the only "B" gear that will be seen around my place.

 

[DJL]

The difference between the mixer and the DMP3 with semi-skilled me using it was quite significant. The sound improvement that I had labored to get with the mixer, (and couldn't) was there immediately, simply by plugging the DMP3 in.

Then you shouldn't be too surprised when that happens again after upgrading your EMC8000's.

 

[wheelema]

...when you start going up from the DMP3 that you'll notice the laws of diminishing returns taking effect...

Ah HA! The Law of Diminishing Returns and Economies of Scale. Now we are getting somewhere. I knew my college eddication would be of value SOMEDAY.

So, preamps (and I suppose mics) are not necessarily expensive because they use better (i.e., pricey) components, they are expensive because not enough of them are being made (Economy of Scale) to bring the unit cost down, and when you buy the Fearn or Avalon, for a logrithmicially greater cost, you are not getting a logrithmicially better sound (Law of Diminishing Returns).

And while each person must decide for himself (herself) WHERE these two values intersect, you vote for the DMP3!

Pretty cool!

What grade do I get!!

 

[Solafide]

"What grade do I get!!"

All I know is I just got a flashback to economics class!!

I don't know if that deserves an A or a F.

 

[chessrock]

So, preamps (and I suppose mics) are not necessarily expensive because they use better (i.e., pricey) components, they are expensive because not enough of them are being made (Economy of Scale) to bring the unit cost down

Exactly my point! But to an extent, of course. All other things being equal, better components are still more expensive, obviously, The irony is that the companies who can mass-produce aren't necessarily taking advantage of it to make really high-quality stuff. Maybe Focusrite or M-Audio to a small extent.

A lot of them are still caught up in the elasticity of demand for their product. They realize that a small decrease in cost will often bring about an exponentially larger increase in demand, so most of them are caught in the rat race of just trying to make things as cheap as possible.

Meanwhile, the Avalons and Fearns of the world are finding that demand doesn't necessarily drop off proportionately to a price increase. Demand for their product would be less price-elastic. They're enjoying better profits by keeping their prices high, because people will still buy them.

and when you buy the Fearn or Avalon, for a logrithmicially greater cost, you are not getting a logrithmicially better sound (Law of Diminishing Returns).

And while each person must decide for himself (herself) WHERE these two values intersect, you vote for the DMP3!

Yup. For a lot of the home recordists, I think it's a good intersection. You'll probably even find a lot of small studios and serious projects studios who'd be in the same boat.

 

[manning1]

i do diy

a lot of the high end mic preamps are really good. but as to price point i think the dmp3 or vtb1 is a good stopping point.
these are very good pre's imho. the rest is a good song well produced and engineered imho. me - i decided to get off the pre merry go round and build my own. diy brings one independence.
ive made my own pre for a few dollars using very low noise
transistors called mat02 from analog devices. immesurable noise.

 

[k1enneth]

mic pre's

I am a similar situation, here's what I'm thinking...reduce it down to 2 or 3 highly recommended products ( DMP-3, Presonus, or whatever) . Purchase all of them from a Major Chain with a good return policy. Compare them at home, keep one and return the also rans. If you try to hit the nail on the head (buying one without comparison) you will wonder how the others would have sounded. You have to be able to compare instruments on a most unbiased test. Scales, chords, voice identically on each preamp and do a blind comparison. Eliminate any subjectivity.
Or just go to Harmony Central and try to compare reviews along with everyone's 2 cents worth and shop a deal at EBay. Which I've also be known to do. Good Luck.

 

[pkmusic]

Going back to mic preamp and room treatment. From what rushfan33 and chessrock mentioned in the past, room treatment can be a huge diferrence in how your gear will perform.

My questions is (probably a stupid one):
If I am recording my vocals in a home-made vocal room, is this a good enough acoustic treatment for me to scratch off the idea that my room treatment is limiting my gear (my preamp)?

I build my vocal room with PVC pipes and thick moving blankets (4' x 5' x 6'). I just want to make sure I am getting the best results from my gear with the acoustic treatment I have.

 

[manning1]

recording direct

if you record direct then this can alleviate room standing wave problems. no matter how much you spend on a room even millions perfection is elusive. just get the basics down and do a lot of reading. like caraig andertons budget techniques.

 

[dwillis45]

Chessrock:

I was hoping for a clear cut case of market failure, prompting government intervention and pehaps price controls! If they will discount my prescription drugs under Medicare, why not my Great River!

 

[acorec]

Ah HA! The Law of Diminishing Returns and Economies of Scale. Now we are getting somewhere. I knew my college eddication would be of value SOMEDAY.

So, preamps (and I suppose mics) are not necessarily expensive because they use better (i.e., pricey) components, they are expensive because not enough of them are being made (Economy of Scale) to bring the unit cost down, and when you buy the Fearn or Avalon, for a logrithmicially greater cost, you are not getting a logrithmicially better sound (Law of Diminishing Returns).

And while each person must decide for himself (herself) WHERE these two values intersect, you vote for the DMP3!

Pretty cool!

What grade do I get!!

The diference between high priced equipment and low price equipment has to do with:
1. Design-longer design cycle targeted at outstanding specs and breaking the current record for "best". IE: State-of-the-art.
2. Test-complete test cycle including beta testing in the field by pro-users.
3. Critical "local" manufacturing using the best quality parts for ultimate dependability. "Local" manufacturing means the product is made within reach to keep a critical eye on QC.

ALL these steps in a product cycle cost $$$$. There is no single area that can be cut to have an outstanding product. It really does not matter if the product is "mass" produced or produced in low quantaties, the cost /unit is the same and totally relative to the prices of parts/machining/etc.. The cost only goes down if the manufacturer buys huge quantaties of parts and/or finds cheaper labor.


Low $$ equipment:
1. Design-cycle is short (boiler-plate designs) and targeted to a pricepoint and known hobbyist users. Off the shelf parts and lowest cost parts are used.
2. Test-usually in-house tests for specs are done. No beta testing is done (too much $$ and time).
3. Manufacturing-off shore, cheap and QC is non-existant. Most of these companies take the risk of X% of the units will be bad. The buyers will just return the bad ones and get good ones. No real harm done since very few people actually complain. The bad units go through some repair facility and quickly checked out. Usually, the bad ones get written off as rejected inventory and get filed with the taxes as a negative write-off.


So, as long winded as this has been, there is a huge difference between high$$$ stuff and low$$ stuff and it is not only in the sound but in reliability also.

 

[chessrock]

It really does not matter if the product is "mass" produced or produced in low quantaties, the cost /unit is the same and totally relative to the prices of parts/machining/etc..

I like your post, and you make some very good points. But I have to correct you on that statement. It's just false. It's not even open for debate. You're basically saying the sky isn't blue or water isn't wet. Henry Ford is rolling over in his grave and is pissed at you.

 

[Son of Mixerman]

I think if you combine what Bruce said with Chessrock you get closer the answer to the real question. When your a newbie, you don't have the experience to really make objective reviews on a subjective subject. Without using good gear you can't say what gear is bad... there is no baseline for making the judgement. But what is good gear? Obviously the RNC defies the status quo as well as the Mytek as far as that goes. I think budding audio engineers should start thinking less in black and white and more in colors. Certainly the 3630 has given me what I required, it does the job that it does, as well as the RNC and DBX 166. On my PC I have a dozen or so compressor colors and Im always trying to see what one works for what track Im working on. Too many of the same kind will always lead to some sort of build up, whether mud or glaze. Mix and match, move stuff around occasionally to other chains... I even daisy chain pre's on some things. Learn to date your equipment before marrying it, learn to like polygamy as well.

SoMm

 

[acorec]

I like your post, and you make some very good points. But I have to correct you on that statement. It's just false. It's not even open for debate. You're basically saying the sky isn't blue or water isn't wet. Henry Ford is rolling over in his grave and is pissed at you.

I know it is hard to understand, but, go and design a "High end" product, any product. Spec the parts and manufacturing for the high end product including ALL $$$ spent on engineers, tooling and salaries for all phases of production from inception to completion.

Do the same for a "Low end" product.

The cost/unit of the high end unit stays the same relative to the cost/unit of the low end product.

The low end product, at the very least, uses parts that are substantially cheaper There are so many factors that people do not realize that add to the cost of high-end products that it is totally mind-boggling. The PC board material, layout and copper quality alone can add ten times the cost per board between a high end product and a low end product. Building in huge quantities only lowers the total cost per unit BUT relationally, the cost of the high end PC board is STILL 10 times more than the lower end product. This also goes for connectors, caps, wiring etc.

Hand building is another story altogether. These guys probably buy maybe 10-20 bare PC boards at a time. I can tell you from recent experience (1 week ago) that the cost per bare PC board for my latest design is $800/each. They provide 8 boards for engineering prototypes. This is what these hand-building shops are paying for these boards. In quantity of 1024, my board will be $80/each. If I wanted to go the cheap route (like my DMP3 PC card I looked at) I could get away with like $8/per in 1000 pc quantities. The PC board would have 3rd class copper, no 100% netlist check (bad boards BEFORE I stuffed them) and a host of other cost cutting measures. The reliability would be horrible and I would have to eat many bad units before I shipped a thing.