Preamp for condenser mic for newbie

[flourish]

I would like to record myself playing guitar and singing, along with a drum machine on a 4 track machine. I have dabbled in recording on a PC with Sonar, but I can't figure out my latency issues. I have read countless posts on this forum about preamps and mics. I still have some questions regarding my setup:

4 Track: TASCAM Porta 03 MK II
Mics: MXL 990, 991 Condensers (might exchange for more expensive mics)
Guitar Amp: Marshall AVT 20
Acoustic/Electric Guitar
Boss Drum Machine (w/ two outputs right/left)

For a mic preamp, I am thinking about getting either M-Audio Audiobuddy or Joe Meek 3Q. After all my reading, I still don't fully understand what the preamp does. I think I read that it increases the volume of the signal to "line level" to make it more recordable (do I have that right?) Do I need this type of setup: Mic > preamp > amplifier > 4 track? Or does the preamp amplify the sound to the recording device? I realize a mixer and a compressor are useful tools, but a preamp is basically a necessity. Am I right? Thanks dudes and dudets...

 

[crazydoc]

mic>preamp>4 track.
Your mics will need phantom power also, which most preamps provide. You need the preamp to increase the level of the signal from the mic to the point where the 4 track can use it without further amplification, introducing noise and possible impedance mismatch. The 4 track probably has its own preamp(s), but they are doubtless of inferior quality, and doesn't provide phantom power.

The Joemeek will give you eq and compression, and probably a better preamp than the audiobuddy, but will cost more than twice as much and give you only one channel (record only one track at a time.) The audiobuddy is clean, cheaper and gives you two channels (you can record with both mics simultaneously - for stereo, etc.) Both have phantom power, though the audiobuddy's voltage is a little low, but should work with most mics.

To record electric guitar you can record direct into the 4 track, which just gives you the guitars controls to shape your sound and usually leaves a lot to be desired. Most people put a mic or two in front of the amps speakers (do a search on this - there's an active thread here right now too), thus recording the kind of sound you hear from the amp.

Hope this helps.

 

[flourish]

Definitely helpful, crazydoc!

I am leaning towards the M-Audio Audio Buddy because I need the option of recording 2 channels at once.

I also just started looking at the M-Audio DMP3. The difference between the Audio Buddy and the DMP3 seems to have a cleaner, hum free sound. Perhaps there are more benefits that I am missing...

Also, I am looking at the M-Audio MobilePre USB. I am wondering if I can use the MobilePre in the analog world as a preamp for my 4 track. Then, if I decide to eventually move into the digital world, I can use the MobilePre for digital also. Is this possible? Or is the MobilePre meant only for digital?

 

[flourish]

Hmm, I did some research and it seems the MobilePre is bus-powered -- there seems to be no other alternative power solution. I imagine this means it cannot double as a digital preamp and an analog preamp.

Do you think the Audio Buddy or DPM can be used as a preamp for a PC, assuming I get the right sound card, etc? I want a unit for analog/4-track and be able to use that same unit when/if I move to PC/digital.

 

[crazydoc]

Sure, many of us here (including myself) record directly from a preamp into the soundcard of a computer. By all means, get the DMP3 if you can afford it (about $160) - I don't have one (I do have the audiobuddy and MQ3 - old version), and people seem the think the DMP3 sounds superior to the audiobuddy.

A good entry level soundcard is the M-Audio Audiophile 2496 (24 bit/96kHz) with 2in/2out analog, S/PDIF digital I/O, and midi. It has reasonably good converters and is $100 at 8th Street.
http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=7587&Category=Audio_Interfaces

 

[flourish]

Good stuff. I will probably go with the DMP3. One other question I have in regards to the preamp signal to the 4 track is reverb. I used to mess around with mic > guitar amp w/ reverb > 4 track... just to get the sound I wanted for my voice. I would get a lot of unwanted noise, but I expected that as a guitar amp is not meant for voice.

How do I get some mic reverb to my preamp? I understand the DMP3 has a gain switch, but I would think something like reverb would have to come from a mixer. If I am recording to a 4 track do I need a mixer or a vocal effects processor for reverb? If I tried to fake it with a reverb guitar pedal, I would think I would have the same noise problem. I do have a Korg PX4 Effects Processor for Guitar, but it's for guitar!! Could I use it for vocals?

On a related note, I read the following from a post (125690):

--

Ideally you want to record a vocal with as little processing as possible - preferably none. This allows you to add whatever effects are needed at a later time, when you have had a chance to hear it in context with the other vocals/instruments in the mix. When you record something with effects, the effects are there forever - you can't get rid of them if you later decide it was too much reverb, or too much compression.

As distortedrumble indicated, sometimes with rookie singers you might need to work with a little compression, as their vocal levels can be all over the place. But the idea would be to use as little as possible in order to get the job done.

Also, using reverb in the headphone mix is a good idea. In other words, allow the singer to hear himself with reverb, but don't record the reverb. Save that for later.

--

If I am recording on a 4 track, and mixing down to a Sony tape deck, I don't think I could add the reverb effects later. If I was recording on a PC, I see how I could do that -- it would just be an overlayed effects track or something.

 

[crazydoc]

If I am recording on a 4 track, and mixing down to a Sony tape deck, I don't think I could add the reverb effects later. If I was recording on a PC, I see how I could do that -- it would just be an overlayed effects track or something.

If you're going to do it all with hardware, you'll need a hardware reverb unit. And I think you'll need aux sends/inserts to do it, which I don't think your 4 track has.

If you do it with a PC, most tracking software has reverb and many other effects plugins to use, though many leave something to be desired quality-wise.

 

[flourish]

crazydoc,

Thanks for your help so far. I picked up the DPM3 and the Audiophile 2496. I am unsure of how to simply send Channel A to the Audiophile sound card.

I have my condenser mic inserted into the Mic-In for Ch. A on the DMP3.

On the DMP3, there is obviously a balanced output for Ch. A and Ch. B.

On the Audiofile, there are Analog Inputs 1+2 (both RCA), and a Coaxial S/PDIF Input (RCA).

It sounds like I should send a balanced output from Ch A. to either the Analog 1+2, or the Coaxial S/PDIF. But what kind of cable should I use to do this? Sound like a need a hybrid, like a 1/4" TSR to a single or double RCA. Am I about right? From my research, it seems there are 4 types of cabling which applies to my situation:

Audio/RCA (balanced)
Mic - XLR (balanced)
Instrument - 1/4" TS (unbalanced) standard 1/4" plug, for guitars or instruments
Instrument - 1/4" TSR (balanced) standard for ???

Any ideas on how to do this? Feel free to correct any mistakes I may have made!!

 

[flourish]

For the benefit of whoever else is reading this, I found this link on another thread. It's "All About Cables": http://www.tweakheadz.com/all_about_cables.htm

 

[junplugged]

BTW, I have the mics you said you have a 990 and 991. I think those 2 mics are really great. I just got them yesterday, at GC in a package for $100. can't beat that and it's amazing me. Someone said the 991 is a repackaged 603, and that mic sells for $100 on it's own. Good mics, don't judge by price, that doesn't work anymore.

the 4 track you have, is that a cassette? I think I'd have a hard time noticing much difference with better mics than those anyway. I have a digital 8 track and monitors and I still hear all my gear to be very similar and it all sounds really great to me, so I'm not planning anymore to spend a lot on mics, well, I should say not a lot on ONE mic.

and preamps, you have to decide on dual or single channel, then if you want that cheapo tube gimmick, and if you want eq-like presets in it. I said yes to all that stuff. I have an Art v3 that everyone says sucks, and I decided to get another sucky pre, the presonus tubepre. Needless to say, I won't be recording anything in stereo or anything matched. both amps are single channel. I like the ability to mess up my signal w/ the cheapo tube gizmo, esp. my voice that isn't so great anyway and I'd rather give it distortion and pseudo-character than have a pristine and clear signal to it. pristine won't work in my crappy home studio anyway, so I decided to go for some character instead, keepin' it funky.

 

[flourish]

Yes, so far the 990 is pretty awesome. Well, I say that because I have never tried a condenser mic before and it is pretty amazing -- just how it pulls in so much sound. I agree -- I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference of the higher end mics at this point. I am sure the 990 will serve me well as I build up my experience and skill. My 990, 991 was also purchased at GC. It came in a cheap plastic box with no manual, instructions, or warranty cards. Did yours come with any documentation?

Yes, the 4 track I have is cassette. I would also like to give my vocals an extra something-something. I want to start with reverb first. Also, I would like to give my acoustic/guitar some reverb. My guitar amp has reverb, but when I record my guitar, I hear some feedback. Is this due to my Marshall AVT20 being not-so-sophisicated with the reverb? Or, is feedback just a natural response of adding reverb?