Power Trio recording to Portastudio

[Woodoven]

Hey everybody, I found homerecording.com and was glad because it seems like I can really get some good advice here. Please if you can help out, bear thru this really long post and see what you think. It's sincerely appreciated.

I'm pretty familiar with my portastudio but I need some pointers and things to be cleared up. I have a band and we are all young and broke as hell, we're a loud power trio too. We're attempting to make an album's worth of material on my portastudio and we're not bothered by the lack of fidelity that will come with it but we still want to make the best and most exciting recordings we can with our limited means. Lots of bands like Sebadoh, Guided by Voices, and Ween have done this before and being as broke as we are I want to follow their lead in attempting to produce these sessions. I know lots of you guys will feel it's best to figure out higher end options and I understand that view. But this past year we recorded an ep with a friend who is well versed in pro tools and recorded us separately over 4 days(drums, gtr, bass, vox) and he mixed it over two months and we got it mastered and now months later we never even listen to it. The character and grittiness and weirdness of our band was totally lost. Sure we had pretty good basic mixing and mastering that is impressive in its own right, but in the larger picture, the band's excitement was totally lost. We have a quality made product to show people, but artistically we don't want anyone to hear it cause it's not really us. Was a good learning experience all things considered.

So here we are, with very little offhand cash, but with lots of talent and enthusiasm, and pretty much all the gear absolutely necessary to attempt this.

Here's our gear:
Tascam 414mkII
Shure SM58
Audix OM2
Phonic cheap mic
2 Stageworks UM7000 cheap mics.
3 Microphone cables
MXR Dyna Comp
Morley A/B box
Necessary mic stands
Fender Pro Reverb(1975)
Ampeg practice Bass Amp
Tama 4 piece Drum Kit.
RCA cable
Samson headphones
Phonic speakers (for playback)
HiFi VHS Machine (for Mix Down)
2 VHS Cassettes (1 for initial mix downs, 1 for final album mix and sequencing)
Audacity on Dell Dimension 5100 for possibly final mix to make mp3's.

That's the overview of the technology involved.

Here's a rough outline of the process I'm planning out, and I will ask questions at each stage and if problems or conflicts jump out at you please point them out:

First we track live, all three players straight to the 4 track, I don't want to use an external mixer because 1) less electronics in the signal will help it sound better as far as I know, 2) it simplifies the process and I'd rather keep all the mixing in the Portastudio Board. I'll probably use the DBX switch but may consider leaving it OFF. Whichever I choose I will tailor the settings to sound best in either setting. Most likely ON. My unanswered question deals with Panning. If we go direct like this, how should we pan everything. Like usual, L, R, L, R? I have the manual for the Portastudio but some things aren't crystal clear. I know to move the REC switch into the 1, 2, 3, & 4 positions.

So we're doing live takes of each song, using a direct recording method. Audix OM2 as Drum overhead into L mic input on Trk 1/ Shure SM58 mic on Fender Pro Reverb into R Mic Input on Trk 2/. If someone suggests it I may switch up the Shure and Audix if anyone thinks that makes more sense.

Either the Phonic or Stageworks mic on Kick Drum into Trk 3/Bass direct into A/B box into amp on A channel, and into (possibly) MXR Dyna Comp then direct into Trk 4. Since the Ampeg is a low power practice amp I don't want to mic it at a cranked volume because it crackles and farts up at 10, so as a trade off, we'll run it at more moderate volume and let it bleed slightly into the drum overhead mic, and use the Dyna Comp and eq of the 4track to shape the sound. My bass player's bass has active PU's too. The way our Room Space is set up, It's rectangular, the Drums are tucked into one corner and the bass amp is next to it, the guitar amp is at the other end of the room.

So we'll test sounds and get the right levels. Once we do We'll track about 16 or 17 songs. We have 23 or so TDK cassettes to use. These takes will be reviewed and levels and eq's will be chosen and written down.

I read the tutorial and FAQ's about Micing to VHS. I am aware that it's not desirable if either a DAT machine is available or a cd Burner. Neither I'm afraid we have access to. We do have pretty good HiFi VHS machines. If it broadens the sound and brings it to a somewhat better noise reducing quality, then I'm gung ho for trying it out.

Here's the unknown and tricky part. At this point I am going to want to Mix down from the Portastudio Cassette deck into a HiFi VHS machine. My idea is that I can Make a mix of the band that can be re-recorded back into the Portastudio. This would exist on 2 tracks, and then two tracks can be free for overdubbing vocals and more guitar. Depending on the song, I may double track my vocals and leave them on one final track and on the last remaining track do a second guitar.

The 1st mix on the VHS tape would be mixed to Stereo correct? and if sent back into the Portastudio after mixing would put this new mix on TRKS 1 & 4? When mixing to the VHS the 1st time, will subtle Panning work? How should I go about that more or less? Let's say I put the Drums dead center and Bass and Guitar off a little to R & L, will those dynamics be preserved on VHS? and if they are, when it's sent back into the Portastudio where is everything exactly going to go?

If at this stage my plans work out and all the overdubs are done I will make final eq and level notes and mix the album to the last HiFi VHS cassette. We'll have sequenced it and decided the order.

To get this onto my computer I would go from the VHS Audio outs into the input of my Computer. Then use Audacity to make Mp3's. I've used Audacity a bunch before but it makes everything MONO. Panning is highly desired.

That's pretty much the rough outline of what I'm attempting. As you can see the mixing stage I am most unsure of and it's untested. Any suggestions are greatly, greatly appreciated. I could use the help. Many thanks!

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

First, assuming you do stcik with the general method you outline (I'll try talking you out of part of it in a minute ), when recording your tracks to the Portastudio, don't worry too much about the relative levels and panning (though you do want to plan for them early on.) Your object during tracking should be to capture each track optimally individually (even if they are sumultaneously captured.) Since you're capturing to cassette, set each individual track level for optimum capture to cassette, which - assuming those TDKs are Type II chrome (they *should* be), then set the level of each track to average somewhere near 0dB with the peaks no higher than abut +3dB. Oh, and yes, record and playback with the dbx NR turned on.

It's when mixing those down to stereo down to the VCR (more on that in a minute) that you want to set the proper relative mix levels and panning, recording the final proper stereo image to the VCR. Then that will give you the optimal results as stereo backing track over which you can lay your vocals.

That said, however, I'd recommend skipping the VCR stage and going back to your computer again. Your understanding of how Audacity and other computer software - as well as how stereo/mono recording and mixing works at this stage - is mistaken. IT *doesn't* make every thing mono unless that's how you set it up. It has full mixing and track panning capability - it is, in fact, even a bit more flexible in that regard than the Portasudio is.

What I'd recommend is that you bounce your tracks *as is* immediately after recording - i.e. at full recording levels, and not volume mixed yet - to your computer. Since it sounds as though you only have your standard soudcard as an interface, what you'll need to do is record your four tracks in two passes, one pair at a time. To bounce to the computer, set up playbacl of your Poratstudio with track 1 panned hard L, 2 panned hard R, 3 panned hard Left, and 4 panned hard R. Then playback just tracks 1 and 2 into the stereo line input on your computer sound card, and set up Audacity to record the left channel to track 1 and the right channel to track 2. The go back and set the Portastudio to play back just tracks 3 and 4 and set up Audacity to record L to track 3 and R to track 4. Record levels in Audacity sould probably be peaking somewhere around -12dBFS on the computer. You now have all four Portastudio tracks duplicated on the computer.

Now, when it comes time to record the vocals, instead of recording them on tape on the Poratstudio, just use the Portastudio to route the mic channels live throuth the main outs and into your computer soundcard, with Audacity set up to record the L/R Line in from the soundcard to tracks 5 and 6.

Now, you'll have 6 channels of audio in your computer and you can now use Audacity to do all your mixing at once. Yes you can set all levels and all stereo panning on each track however you wish. Just because each track is a mono track doesn't men it can't be panned; in fact this is exactly what makes it pannable. And Audacity can and will save your mix as a stereo file (WAV or MP3)

There are several advantages to doing things this way instead. The main ones, though, are that you're removing the VCR from the signal chain, along with the second bounce back from the VCR to the Poratastudio. That's two extra stages of tape bounce and it's associated noise and distortion that you're eliminating. Even if you use the dbx NR, you're still going to have two more generations of generational loss that way. By using the method I outlined, you only have one generation of tape, and that's only on 4 of the 6 tracks. It's a much shorter and cleaner overall path.

Second, by mixing everything at the same time "in the box", you have a better chance of getting the vocals to sit in the mix better than if you mix the instruments seperately to the VCR then lay the vocals over them in a second pass.

Third, by going in the box with your mixing, you open up a whole realm of potential mix polishing through the use of software compressors, EQs, reverbs, etc. that you'll never have if you wait to use them in mastering the MP3.

G.

 

[Woodoven]

G.-

You're the man.

Thanks so much for writing out that outline. I heard about the VHS thing and it seemed pretty cool to do but this makes more sense in the final analysis.

If I have any problems as this goes ahead I'll be back to ask questions.

thanks
-Woodoven

 

[Woodoven]

Would Apple Garageband on an Apple laptop work as well or better as Audacity?

Would the process you outlined be comparable?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Would Apple Garageband on an Apple laptop work as well or better as Audacity?

Would the process you outlined be comparable?

Yeah, the platform is irrelevant; Mac or PC, whichever one you have or are are most comfortable with.

The overall process I described will remain basically the same regardless of software. Some small details may differ, but the overall procedure is pretty standard.

I'm not a Mac guy myself, and have therefore no personal experience with Garageband, but from what I have gathered from reading others here, Garageband is servicable software that should basically let you do what we're talking about, but it is also low-end entry-level software that may not give you quite the control you desire a few steps down the road. Maybe someone else can chime in better than I on that.

G.

 

[Woodoven]

I'm having some trouble:

Even though a stereo track has been set up, when I start to record everything goes to a new track, leaving the stereo tracks blank.

It's hard to make the individual tracks line up and sync up the way they are supposed to.