Pleae help me layout my 12x11 room (photos incl.)

[girvan]

Please help me layout my 12x11 room (photos incl.)

Hi,
Name: Scott,
Loc: NB, Canada
Budget: around $1000 CAN
Goals: Sound isolation and treatment for my small space. Live drums. Renovate for a control room for now with adding tracking room addition in future (maybe)

Trying to come up with a design for my small room. Below are photos and then some questions. I really, really, really appreciate your help.

Above: What I have to work with. Left is current. Right is what I plan to do - remove exterior door and window, board them up.

Exterior view. Red (pink) area is the space

This is what's above the room. If possible I could open that up (if to improve acoustics or mode of the room)

TL: Here's what the room looks like now. TR & BL: The current outer walls - Vinyl siding, boards, pink insulation and 1.4" press board.

What I know
I've read a lot on John Sayers site, this site and I'm 1/2 way thru Rod Gervais' book. I understand the m-a-m concept for walls. I understand DIY slat resonators (although I have no clue how to build to certain modes), bass traps etc... I realize airtight is key, caulking is key, I'm no pro but I'm starting to get it.
Where I'm lost
The Floor: It is dirt - 1' of air - 2x6 joist - plywood. Should I just add mass to this (mass meaning insulation and another layer of plywood)

The outside wall: I know that 2 leaf is the way to go so do I rip off the inner 1/4" ply and maybe reuse that on the floor or rip it on a table saw and add it between the studs on the outer wall. Should I cut 5/8 drywall and add that between the studs on the outerwall (there's no vapor barrier on this old house)

The ceiling: again for mass. Should I suspend drywall on RC or open it up and make a vault ceiling. The room is small anyway.

The layout: I know that symmetry is key. I also understand the benefits on non parallel walls. Should I stick with this:

as seen on JSayers site or go with something different. I need help on this layout.

Materials
I found a local supplier for Roxul Flexibatt® and/or Safe'n'Sound™ (Flexibatt around 70¢/sq foot [2'x4' @ 2"])
Also fabric to cover DIY traps (thick uphostery in many colors) is $3.96 - 56"W per meter (39").
I have free lumber (a lot of old barn boards) that I can rip into various sizes. I can get drywall and I have a box of acoustical caulking (not sure of the brand at the moment)

Thank you, thank you. I'll do my best to continue researching this. I really appreciate your help.

 

[girvan]

I've looked at the control room plan on the SAE site. I've modified it to fit my space. Not sure about treatment. What I plan is to build a tracking room addition in the future. It would be through the blue glass. For now no glass, a bass trap on that wall. Later when I add on I will replace that outer wall.

If you can offer any suggestions that would be great. I am going to continue the demo of the room this weekend (removing the plywood for the inside of the walls.)

Thanks
Scott.

 

[Bill Furnett]

Scott,

I thought you'd have had plenty of feedback by now as your posts have all the the right ducks in a row (Pics, floorplans with dimensions, been to John's site and even got Rod's book), but hang in there, the resident experts will be along eventually... I hope.

-Billy-

 

[girvan]

Thanks Bill,
People are busy, I can totally appreciate that. My website/print shop business gets busy too and there isn't much time for anything else. I will wait patiently. Advice is really appreciated though.

Last week I set up my gear in this 12 x 11 nighmare and recorded one song with drums, direct bass, direct elec git and acoustic (yamaha/shure drum mics, B2 PRO on the acoustic, Roland GX700 processor on electric all patched thru a Mackie 1604 and then thru a MOTU 2408 into Cool Edit Pro 2.1 - Tannoy ProtoJ ref mon. powered by a old home stereo amp). For treatment I put my sons mattress in one corner and pointed the drums towards it. That's it. The mp3 below is a result of that room (and my ears of course) It sounded OK in the room but now on my PC at work things are pretty boomy. Tell me what you think.

get mp3 here

This gives you a listen to the little room. Once the build is complete I will rerecord that track and have a A/B comparison on the space. Should be a nice testimony to the brain power at work in this (and John's) forums.
Thanks again
Scott.

 

[Bill Furnett]

Scott,

I listened to your mp3 and while i dont have the know how to make treatment suggestions based on a recording, I DID think the tune was great!

GREAT snare sound on the single hits! ( Does get a bit muddy or inconsistant on the fills) Also: The snare sounds a tad too loud in the mix to me and the guitars are kind of "samey" perhaps from going direct, but that is neither here nor there. The song itself is really cool.

Come on Rick, Steve, Rod (I know you guys are busy but) please help this guy out (if you haven't already elsewhere) , he's done the homework

-Billy-

 

[emergencyexit]

I know this isn't the mp3 mixing clinic, but I've got to say the tune sounds great and you tracked if very very well. The snare seems a bit to prominent but I don't think its just a level thing. Maybe you could tame it with a nice sounding reverb? Just enough to knock its presence down a bit.

Ben

 

[girvan]

Thanks guys. I appreciate it. It is a very quick mix. I am guilty of double posts on this site and JSayers site. I posted this room problem there a few weeks ago. Please forgive me for that. Initially I had a larger budget and John did offer a design. I now have less money and can't expand on the room so I thought maybe some folks here could help. I certainly want to be honest about all of this and I'm not trying to play both sides of the home recording BBS fence. I'm just a guy trying to make a record and fulfill a dream of having a decent room to do it in. So with that said, all help is still very much appreciated.

Thanks everyone.

 

[girvan]

Anyone? Right now I most concerned and puzzled about what to do with the floor. If I take this one step at a time maybe it will be easier to be coached. The current floor is like a big drum. Dirt ground then about 1 foot of air then 2x6 joists with plywood over that. I can't find a solid answer to this through searching. Any links or advise would rock - thanks.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I now have less money and can't expand on the room so I thought maybe some folks here could help.

What do you mean "can't expand" on the room. Is the room you want to fix in the picture?

 

[girvan]

By can't expand I mean that I cannot afford an addition. If you look in the exterior view above, the red area is what I have to work with. Initially I wanted to add an 8 foot extension out onto the concrete but I don't have the money for that so I want to create a combo control/tracking room within the current 12.6x11.4 space.

I can add mass to the walls and build a 2 leaf system. I also believe I should remove the windows and door (blue on end) to improve isolation.

Thanks

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I'm just a guy trying to make a record and fulfill a dream of having a decent room to do it in. So with that said, all help is still very much appreciated.

Ok girvan, lets see what we can do about reaching that goal.. 12.6x11.4 huh? Hmmm, almost square. Well, let me ask you some things.

Tell me about your isolation goals first. What exactly are you are trying to do isolation wise?

Are you familiar with construction? Do you have tools? Are you in a city or country type location?

Right now I most concerned and puzzled about what to do with the floor. If I take this one step at a time maybe it will be easier to be coached. The current floor is like a big drum. Dirt ground then about 1 foot of air then 2x6 joists with plywood over that. I can't find a solid answer to this through searching.

Right off the top of my head, this is what I would suggest. You are absolutely correct about the floor. It IS a big drum head. But to solve or improve its performance as related to your isolation goal, I really need to know your what you are trying to do. Let me explain. IF, your primary isolation goal was to keep sound from entering the house, AND, the floor in this room is part of a CONTINUOUS floor framing that has a subfloor that runs UNDER the WALL PLATES in the partition partition wall that seperates your room from the rest of the house, I would submit you are spitting in the wind.
Under those conditions, serious isolation from the rest of the house would take serious renovation and budget. However, if your goal were only concerned with environmental noise transmitting into the space, thats another animal entirely and depending on the type and SPL of the noise. you could possibly do wonders. If your goal was trying to keep drum sound from transmitting to a neighbors bedroom 10' away, I'd ask you how much money ya got? See what I mean? So, let us know what you are trying to do and we'll get on with the program, ok? Ok.
fitZ

 

[girvan]

Thank you very much for the followup. Here are the answers.

Isolation Goals:
I want to keep sound out from the outside and not have drums blaring in the neighborhood and in the rest of my house. I can track drums at reasonable hours so as not to disturb everyone, however I would like to be able to playback at a decent volume anytime of day (to mix or overdub). If I could isolate to the point of tracking drums until 9pm without ticking anyone off inside or out...that would be ideal. I be able to listen over night that would be ideal.

Location:
Rural / Country. Closest neighbor is across the street (80'). Saturday mornings it is not uncommon that a bulldozer or tractor be operating within 300yards by 8am.

Skills:
I am not a pro but familiar. I have a circle of friends who are pro builders. I have access to a lot of tools. That's not an issue.

The Floor:
Our house is an old farmhouse. The 'studio' room is part of an addition that the previous owners made. This addition consists of a laundry room, entry (mud room) and the 'studio' room (previously a summer kitchen). Here's a quick mockup of the house:

So the addition is not part of the old house however as far as I know (and I will verify this later) the newer floor does start off the main beam of the old house. The subfloor itself is not common across the length of the house. There is a 1" step up into the old house.

One advantage is the entry provides somewhat of an airlock between the studio and the house. I cannot use the entry/laundry rooms for a larger studio. With 3 kids we need all the space we can get for boots and jackets.

Thanks Rick. I hope this clears some things up.

So I just got back from a quick trip home to take some photos.
Here is the step up to the older house:

A shot from inside the old house looking at the entry with the studio door behind the freezer:

A stitched shot from the cellar below the old house looking at the sill and out under the newer section. The stairs are what's left of original storm /root cellar entrance and that space is directly under the laundry:

Here's a link to a QTVR looking at my neighborhood: (Note that where you 'see thru' the building is because I moved to the other corner of wall.)
Quicktime VR

Thanks again.
Scott.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

EXCELLENT!!!

Scott, I want you to understand something. My disclaimer is in full force here.
I am not an expert, and that being said, understand that I only offer my opinion in the hope it is correct. If not, and an expert DOES have the correct solution, I hope he will correct me. That way I learn as well. Also, anything I offer here may NOT meet your local code ordinances. I advise you to compare my advice with your Building Inspection Department requirements. They may not be compatible. In that event, compliance by virtue of obtaining a permit with their approval of your plan would be highly advisable. If for nothing else, to insure your homeowners insurance stays intact should something happen. Don't believe it can't happen to you.

Ok Scott. Very cool. Alright, this will take some time to breakdown exactly what is what, and how its made. Here are some questions and I need some additional pictures.
General. Which dimension is the width of the room? How about measuring the room and give me acurated dimensions. From finish floor to existing ceiling.
Floor
Is the addition floor framing typical? Rim joist, sill plate with floor joists resting on the sill plate?


What is the foundation made of?

What is the subfloor material?

Is there a wood finish floor? If not, what is over the subfloor?

Are the wall plates on top of the subfloor?

Is there anywhere you can see the subfloor?

Is there anyplace that you can see it and take a picture?

From your pictures in the cellar stairway, I can't see the addition floor joists very well.

Are you sure these are 2x6 joists under the addition

Can you tell the spacing?

Any blocking between the additions floor joists?

Any insulation between them?

I also see what looks like a laminated beam to span the cellar entrance. Does this beam terminate on a concrete foundation for the house at each end? The exterior wall of the house that the addition extends from, must rest on the beam, no? Please tell me about this beam. A

Is there an addition floor joists fastened to this beam? Can you look up around there and take a pic? I'm looking for a physical connection of one floor to the other. I noticed the step down into the laundry room. This level difference imply an unusual condition. Can you draw a section through this connection?
Would you be willing to cut away a portion of the subfloor and framing if if it were nessessary to fullfill you isolation goal? Under the conditions I see so far, its quite possible that this would be the only way to TOTALLY decouple a floor assembly to prevent structural transmission directly from the drums into the house, as well as to the exterior leaf of the addition walls as well. There may be less severe solutions, however, I believe they may not perform up to your needs. Untill I take a survey of every existing condition, I really don't want to jump the gun and offer a half baked solution.

However, let me say this. Your floor is going to be what determines the overall transmission loss performance of your total isolation in general. Since this is basically a membrane, and there is an airgap between it and the ground, a resonant condition is set up. To improve the floors transmission of impact vibrations as well as harmonic/airborn sound by resonance in the room as well, a very robust solution is required, in terms of LOW FREQUENCY Transmission Loss. Once this LF-TL goal is determined, this target goal will determine the rating that must be achieved in the rest of the envelope assemblies as well to prevent "weak link" syndrome. Not an easy task, but doable. Why build a wall with TL rating of 45 at 50hz, if your floor assembly will transmit at 30db at 50 hz. Your bass drum is what we are talking about here, but impact of other instruments will contribute their own impact signature as well.

Thats why it is important to verify and understand the existing floor condionss, as they will determine the correct solution. Basically speaking, yes, mass must be added, but your existing framing may not support it. That is why we need to know as much as possible. See my details below and tell me if I am right or wrong.

Walls:
In your picture of the wall that has been cut open, it looks like this wall is sheithed on the interior with OSB. Is that correct?

Are ALL the walls OSB? If not, are there other materials, such as drywall over the osb, or used as a wall shiething by itself? Such as boards with wallpaper over them. If all the interior walls are shiethed in OSB, how are the joints treated? Did someone try to tape them like drywall?

What is the spacing of studs? Are these typical 2x4 stick framed walls?

What EXACTLY is the exterior shiething behind the exterior vinyl siding consist of? Any vapor barrier such as tar paper or Tyvek type product, or insulation kraft paper facing?

Is there insulation in the wall that partitions off this space from the bathroom and entry?

Are there any pipes in this wall for bathroom fixtures? Notice the pipes hanging from the addition floor joists. Very bad flanking path. Especially if they are in that wall as well. Usually, a 4" vent pipe will run up the wall from the toilet and penetrate the roof membrane. Does the toilet back up to this wall?
What about the door in this wall. I assume it is a typical hollow core door assembly, yes? If not, tell me about it. Same with all the other doors. Is the main door leading to the addition from the house a solid core door since the wall that this door penetrates used to be facing the elements, no?

Are you willing to remove the existing exterior door and window that penetrate your studio walls?

Tell me about the existing heating/cooling elements. I see one in a picture that looks like a small wall heating unit, no? Where is this? How do you heat the studio, if that unit isn't in it? If none, do you plan on installing something, and if so, what type? You understand that "soundproof" means "airproof" as well. Since the room will be airtight, you need a ventalation source, which means the room is no longer airtight. Ductwork registers must penetrate the interior envelope. Another flanking path that must be delt with.

Are you willing to remove the COMPLETE interior shiething if necessary to meet your goals?

Cieling/roof.
What is the cieling shiething material?

What nominal size is the cieling joists? What are their spacing?


What is the insulation in the joist cavity? It looks like blown in celulose.

You are right about the old farmhouse. It looks like old barnboards for the roof boards. I like that What I don't understand is the roof rafter connection to the walls. It doesn't look like it has a birsmouth. It looks like the whole rafter is resting on the top plate, but you have an eave all the way around, which wouldn't be possible if that were the case. In the picture, I can't tell if the member that the rafters are connecting to, is the wall plate, or eave blocking BETWEEN the rafters? Can you tell?

One thing I don't like is the 2x4 support braces, for lack of a better term. Because Mass equals weight, adding any mass to the existing joist/rafter assembly needs to be addressed on a structural level. Hence PERMITS and a thorough evaluation of the integrety of the assembly to do so as it exists.

Although I can't tell if these are diagonal bracing or perpendicular(plumb) bracing. I would like to see the whole attic in a series of pics. Especially looking the other direction over the bathroom and entry.
What is the roofing material made of? Looks like typical comp roofing shingles, no? Any vents, or other things like ducts or heating equipment or bathroom exhaust fan vent ducting?

How about the laundry/entrance space. Any appliances with pipes in the dividing wall to the studio? Looks like just a door and did you say refriderator?

Well Scott, those should keep you busy for a day or two. As soon as you can provide some insight to these questions, the sooner I can extrapolate some solution options. Ok, I'm outta time for the moment. Talk to you later.
fitZ

 

[girvan]

Awesome! Thank you Rick. I really appreciate it. It's 7am, just got to work. I am going home now to with my digicam and start getting some answers. (I can open my shop at 9:00 today). Please let me know if you have the Sketchup software. If so I can model some of the components of the house. I am still going to open some things up and get some better fotos.
Later-
Scott.
I'm back:
I know I don't have all the answers but here's what I have so far with a compass to help explain photos later:

Dimensions:

Exterior Wall (list describes out to in):

Photo of exterior wall (West side in shot):

Pic of internal wall (through that closed door is the studio, the open door to laundry): 2x4 studs, no insolation, covered with cheap paneling:

Foundation:
Main house is old stone foundation (facing East in this case):

"Footing" outside newer addition:

Floors
I shoved my camera thru a small hole in studio floor. Mix match of joists. no insulation (other than a bit laying on the ground) Floor is boarded and then a layer of OSB and lanolium over that:

Shot from cellar up into stairwell - Theres a beam the ends behind that vent pipe:

Looking at 2 large main beams under old house. They do not run past the foundation:

What a mess! Framing us 2x4 ruff studs spaced anywhere from 32 - 34" apart. For the 12'6" span there are 4. No birdsmouth. Insolation is blown in, about 3/4" deep. Joists are strapped and then a layer of OSB. Here's some pics with the compass direction of view:

SEast

Strapping. Insolation

West

SWest

West

East

North/East

North

West

Answers
Plates are over sub floor in newer part.
The joists under addition are 2x8 but they really are mix/matched. From what I can see through that little hole. I want to open it up more this weekend. No blocking between.

In the studio room everything is OSB and they did try to tape the seams. Uggh, going to be a task to open that up without destroying it all.

Yes, I was planning on removing all the OSB from inside the room.

There is an electrical wall heater that I would use if possible to save some $$$. I'd just run it to warm up the place on the -30degree winter days. I thought of an inwall AC unit (in the laundry room) and make a cold room out of the laundry room and then duct that into the studio. Mabe just a portable AC that is piped in/out

Addition doors are not solid core. They are of the 'easily put your fist thru' variety.

Door from kitchen (old house) in to addition is quite heavy -Solid.

The roof is asphalt shingles over tar paper over boards, no insolation under that surface itself.

Seems to me the rafters are connected to the plate.

No vents or nothing up there.

The toilet is in the old house. In the addition there is a washer/dryer in the laundry room. No pipes enter the studio room or are in the wall between the studio/laundry. Actually there is nothing on that wall, no electrical or anything. The refigerator (deep freeze) was in the studio room and I booted it out in to the entry for now. It's going in the cellar when I get some help. Not an issue.

That's what I have for now. I hope it helps somewhat.
Thanks again.
Scott.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Please let me know if you have the Sketchup software. If so I can model some of the components of the house.

Just downloaded it last night Now for ANOTHER learning curve. Music is a lifelong learning curve...how many more can I take on.

 

[girvan]

Here's a model of my house. It's not 100% to scale but very close. I'm not sure if this will help you but I'm bored at work and wanted to get more familiar with SketchUp.

First a gif to give folks an idea before the 217kb download (Broad Band at work / Dialup at home):

Then the SketchUp file here

 

[girvan]

Hi,
Monday again! Does my info lead to any ideas?
Scott.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Sure do. Working on it right now. Talk later.

 

[girvan]

Awesome, thanks Rick.

 

[girvan]

Hey, I know you folks are busy, I too am busy at work this week. I can't help but bump this up a bit and ask if there are any thoughts. Rick, I appreciate your help. I don't want to be impatient. If have have one minute please just let me know how things are going with your ideas, even if it's just to say "get to that later".

Thanks a lot,
I hope the sun shines all weekend long.
Scott.