Piano recording- what mic?

[crashtest]

I am planning to buy an mbox, in order to record a grand piano. What sort of mic should I get? A condenser, and if so, which model? (Reasonably priced)

What about a dynamic mic? Do I really need 2 mics, or should a condenser be enough for great quality? If I want to record a string quartet, what sort of mic setup would i need? Thanks!

 

[Treeline]

Lots of stuff here - a job for experimentation.

First, use the search function here for the major search terms. This has been a topic of a few discussions that were pretty interesting, as I recall. "Which mic" is one of a whole slew of variables here - how you do it is more of a deal than what you use.

I had a grand piano in mind when I went shopping and ended up with a couple of small diaphragm condensers I end up using for just about everything. The ones I got were MXL 603s and I love them, but there are others out there that are way cool.

Learning how is going to take some time. It's taken a lot of time for me already and I've just scratched the surface (polishes "Newbie" badge and pins it carefully on shirt). I'd start with a mic boom and whatever dynamic mic you have or can borrow, poked in there under the hood and pointing at an angle down. Then move it a bunch of times in succession and listen to the results. You will start to get a picture of the piano. Then try experimenting with two small diaphragm condenser mics in a series of configurations - again listening to the results and trying to keep track of them.

These days I'm fooling with an x - y arrangement where the mic capsules are close together but aiming in different directions. I'm picking up a lot of pedal noise. Some people use a boundary mic on the inside of the top. Some place a mic underneath, pointing up. And on and on.

A string quartet is a whole deal in itself. It's a challenge; go slowly.

 

[Fletcher]

Last time I cut a grand piano I used some "Stapes" mics... they were awsome.

 

[crashtest]

So if at first all I buy is a condenser mic, to plug into the mbox, that will at least give me a decent recording right? The other mics are not necessities? Of course, If I want better sound, I am sure more can help!

 

[Richard Monroe]

I'd probably buy a good cheap pair of condensers, like Studio Projects B-1. I haven't mic'd a grand before, but I know the B-1 works pretty good on a Wurlitzer console (a medium sized standup). They're $80 apiece. Why 2? a grand piano is huge! It's a big picture. To capture the whole piano with one mic, the (cardioid) mic has to be farther away. The signal gets weaker, you boost gain- more noise. With a coincedent (X-Y) or near-coincedent (big mics with shockmounts can only be so close together), the mics can be closer, and pick up a better stereo picture, more like your own ears. The fields overlap like the visual fields of a binocular. At a certain distance (the sweet spot), the image comes into focus.
You could also use 2 small diaphragm condensers the same way, like MXL 603's or Octava MC012, those are also about $80 each. They will make a "sharper" sound, and make a little more noise. Hard up for bucks? Yes you really can do it with 1 SM57 underneath, and 1 Behinger ECM8000 (35-40 bucks) overhead, but only if this grand is sitting in a good room, which they often are.-Richie

 

[Roel]

I recorded a grand piano with AKG C3000b's half a year ago. Not the mic of my choice (although one of the better mics I have available....), but it worked out ok.

Alot of it is in the placing of the mics, the distance from the strings etc. You'll have to do ALOT of experimenting. Listening, listening and more listening. Do some reading before you start, so you know what to listen for and where to start. It's not an easy instrument to record.

 

[crashtest]

Thanks for the responses. So 2 condensers would be good? What about 1 condenser, and 1 dynamic mic? Is there really a difference?

I will be using an mbox, should it give me pretty good results, near to a mixer of higher cost?

 

[Roel]

Yes! There's a BIG difference!

If you want to record a grand piano, you just gotta go stereo to capture the full beauty of it. And you don't record stereo with one condensor and one dynamic mic. There's too much difference between both of em. Best results when recording stereo is when using 2 identical mics. Even matched!

 

[Treeline]

So 2 condensers would be good? What about 1 condenser, and 1 dynamic mic? Is there really a difference?

I don't know how to answer that, except to say yes, 2 condensers would be good; yes, one condenser and one dynamic would be good, and yes, there is a world of difference.

The Mbox should be pretty cool.

Spend some time doing internet research on this stuff. There is a whole bunch to learn.

 

[DJL]

I am planning to buy an mbox, in order to record a grand piano. What sort of mic should I get? A condenser, and if so, which model? (Reasonably priced)

What about a dynamic mic? Do I really need 2 mics, or should a condenser be enough for great quality? If I want to record a string quartet, what sort of mic setup would i need? Thanks!

crashtest, here's something Harvey Gerst posted on this mic forum BBS a while back that I've found very helpful... maybe it will help you too.......

-----------------------
Pianos and Mics - No Simple Solutions

Just as with most acoustic stringed instruments, the bulk of the sound is produced by the sounding board to which the strings are attached. In guitars and violins, it's the top of the instrument; in pianos, it's the sounding board. You don't mic the picks, the bows, or the hammers - they produce very little sound.

There are several considerations when placing mics for piano recording. Foremost, will the instrument be recorded by itself, or with other instruments playing at the same time? Those two situations require different mic techniques. Is it a grand piano or an upright piano? Each requires different mic techniques. Finally, where will the recording take place? That may also require different mic techniques.

If the purpose of the recording is accuracy, and you're micing a solo concert grand piano, then you'll need some good, small diaphragm condenser mics, placed some distance from the piano, usually around 6 to 8 feet away. You can use a x-y setup for cardioids, or a wider spaced ORTF setup with Omni’s or cardioids.

The piano lid is used to direct some of the sound towards the mics. IF the piano is part of a group of instruments, you can get better isolation by micing the underside of the instrument, using a slightly wide spacing with Omni’s or cardioids. Mics placed inside the top of the instrument can also be used, but it's harder to achieve a good balance or isolation since the piano lid will also reflect sounds from the other instruments into the mics.

Large diaphragm mics can also be used, but the response changes as the sound enters from different angles and the larger mics add coloration (which can sometimes add an unexpected richness to the sound).

Upright pianos should be miked from the back of the instrument, but try to avoid having the soundboard too close to a wall. The distance from the wall will create a standing wave which will interfere with the sound. If the piano has to be near a wall, angle the piano so that it doesn't sit parallel to the wall. Be especially attentive to a ringing sound when micing upright pianos.

This ringing is caused by Resonance’s within the piano, and usually can be solved or reduced by moving the mics around till you find a dead area, free of the ringing. Just as with a concert grand, close micing is not advised, but since an upright piano is usually part of a group, it's not possible to mic from a distance and still have isolation.

To sum it up, first choices for recording a piano would be small Omni or cardioid condenser mics, but don't be afraid to try large condensers, ribbons, or dynamic mics (if that's all you have). Mic from a distance if possible. Second choice would be under the piano, and finally, from the top of the piano, but watch out for ringing and reflections from that position.

Harvey Gerst

 

[Michael Jones]

Depends on the sound you're after.

I recorded this:
http://artists2.iuma.com/site-bin/streammp3.m3u?190193
using 2 TLM 103's (Large Diameter Condenser) Nice, full, rich sound

and this:
http://artists2.iuma.com/site-bin/streammp3.m3u?401262
with 2 SM7's (Large Diameter Dynamic) Less detailed, but still warm and...softer

and this:
http://artists2.iuma.com/site-bin/streammp3.m3u?260212
With a pair of SM81's. (Small Diameter Condenser) Most detailed, but not as Rich or Warm

and this:
http://artists2.iuma.com/site-bin/streammp3.m3u?286662
With a pair of ECM8000's (Small diameter Omni) Just an experiment. Passable recording, but, not a mic I'd use for this application again.


Same piano, (7'-2" Boston Grand) same room, different flavours.

 

[crashtest]

Was that with an mbox? Thank you very much for those samples, but they are not loading for some reason.

Is there anywhere else I can hear samples, of the Mbox?

 

[Michael Jones]

Was that with an mbox? Thank you very much for those samples, but they are not loading for some reason.

Is there anywhere else I can hear samples, of the Mbox?

I was probably editing the post while you were trying to listen. Try it again.


What's an MBox???

 

[Innovations]

Mbox is a usb audio interface. Frankly I would not worry too as much about it as the type of microphones and their placement.

You do not specify the type of music that you are trying to record. To get a concert kind of sound like you might want with classical then place them outside pointing toward the strings. To get a kind of honky-tonk sound put them right over the hammers, or something in between.

Pianos have both wide pitch ranges and wide dynamic ranges. You want a mic that will get that whole range. A 'vocal' mic with a bass drop-off and a high end presence boost might not be a good choice.

Forced to make a snap decision and pick just one mic I would go with the MXL 603 or something similar.

 

[Michael Jones]

Mbox is a usb audio interface.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, OK. I know what it is now.

Frankly I would not worry too as much about it as the type of microphones and their placement.

Most definately! Placement is going to be crucial!

Forced to make a snap decision and pick just one mic I would go with the MXL 603 or something similar.

I'll go along with that; a small diameter condenser will probably serve you best at this point.
I have a recording... somewhere, using the 603's. I thought the SM81's were a better choice though.

 

[crashtest]

It is for only classical music. Does the size of the piano matter when placing mics? One is a Steinway D (8 foot 11) and the other is a smaller grand (below 6 feet).

 

[Treeline]

Anything to get to use the big Steinway... Man, mix that up with a couple of 603s and you'll have some nice sound. What a low end on those suckers....

 

[Fletcher]

I'd probably buy a good cheap pair of condensers, like Studio Projects B-1.

The Stapes I used last time I cut piano are like $300/pr... and they beat mics costing 20X as much for the application. All due respect to the budget world of Chinese mics [buy 6 you get egg roll?]... but these little puppies are very possibly the best value I've ever met in professional audio. As always, YMMV

 

[Teacher]

. All due respect to the budget world of Chinese mics [buy 6 you get egg roll?]...

lol now now fletcher is that politically correct?

did you find the stapes mics to have the same price to performance ratio with most applications or just piano's?

if so how would you compare it to another all purpose use type mic like the shure sm7(at least thats what i heard i just use it for vocals personally)?

 

[Middleman]

The condensors Harvey is recommending have minimal off axis response which is why they are good in this instance. They offer better control if the room your in has weird coloration issues. If your in a well controlled environment (which few home rec types are) then you might have other options.