Phantom power necessary?

[fbchurch2009]

I recently bought an akg d112 dynamic mic and was going to try to make it sound like a cannon through our system but I had a few questions. What will the difference be in sound of the akg d112 if I use phantom power or not? Does it make it sound any different? or is phantom power just for condensers?
I was told that you are supposed to use phantom power for dynamic mics only.
thanks!

 

[shortedaman]

yea, well first off. whoever told you that phantom power is for dynamic mics is retarded. and, secondly, no phantom power will not change how your dynamic mic sounds. phantom power is used for condenser mics, as well as some ribbon mics.
also, what do you mean sounds like a cannon? that made no sense. any other questions and im sure you can find your answers in the newbie forum!

 

[Richard Monroe]

Who's retarded? Phantom power is used for mics that require phantom power. Most of them are condensers, and a very few of them are dynamics, including a couple of ribbon mics. Although most modern ribbon mics can *survive* phantom power, many older and classic (read very valuable) ribbon mics will be nicely fried by the application of phantom power. Phantom power should *never* be applied to a ribbon mic unless you are damned sure it is one of a tiny handful of ribbons that are actually phantom powered. And for the record, a ribbon mic *is* a dynamic mic.-Richie

P.S.- A D112 doesn't need phantom power, and won't be affected by it whatsoever.

 

[fbchurch2009]

I was just kind of curious.... should you give phantom power to every condenser mic on stage?

 

[moresound]

yupor they just will not work

 

[philbagg]

yea, well first off. whoever told you that phantom power is for dynamic mics is retarded. and, secondly, no phantom power will not change how your dynamic mic sounds. phantom power is used for condenser mics, as well as ribbon mics.
also, what do you mean sounds like a cannon? that made no sense. any other questions and im sure you can find your answers in the newbie forum!

ARE YOU FUCKING MENTAL?!!?!!

Thinking about:
Using phantom power w/dynamics = pointless
Using phantom power w/ribbon mics = extremely retarded

 

[philbagg]

yupor they just will not work

Unless it's an electret microphone, which is a condenser with a permanently polarized capsule

Although, the chances of you using one over a regular condenser are slim. And personally, I wouldn't be a huge fan of using condensers live.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Actually, lots of electrets require phantom power, AT4033 and AKG C2000B, for example. Condensers are often used on stage, also, both the handheld type, and many that you would think of as studio mics. It's not just rock bands that play on stages. I have seen AKG C414, Shure KSM44 (Ricki Lee Jones) B.L,U.E. Baby Bottle (Nickel Creek) used on stage with great success, usually for instruments. The handheld types, such as AKG C535 and Neumann KMS105 are stage standards for folk, pop, and vocal ensembles. You do need good feedback control, but the concept that condenser mics can't be used live is bogus.-Richie

 

[YorkshireTrippe]

um...its called "phantom" power for a reason. It cancels itself out if the mic isn't looking for it. No, it won't have any effect on a dynanmic mic that doesn't need phantom power. Otherwise they would just call it "power"

 

[mshilarious]

Unless it's an electret microphone, which is a condenser with a permanently polarized capsule

Although, the chances of you using one over a regular condenser are slim. And personally, I wouldn't be a huge fan of using condensers live.

Better take all those SM81s that have been used on stage for 30 years and throw them in the garbage. Filthy electret microphones! Burn them all!!!!

 

[mshilarious]

ARE YOU FUCKING MENTAL?!!?!!

Thinking about:
Using phantom power w/dynamics = pointless
Using phantom power w/ribbon mics = extremely retarded

Dude, sorry but you're a complete bonehead. There are some dynamic and ribbon microphones that require phantom power because they have internal amplifiers.

 

[fbchurch2009]

So condenser mics will absolutely not work if they don't have phantom power? and one more question. how can you tell what kind of mic it is?

 

[XLR]

So condenser mics will absolutely not work if they don't have phantom power? and one more question. how can you tell what kind of mic it is?

There are some condensers that can use internal batteries instead of externally provided phantom power.

 

[philbagg]

Dude, sorry but you're a complete bonehead. There are some dynamic and ribbon microphones that require phantom power because they have internal amplifiers.

Did he say that? No. He basically said that all ribbons require phantom
power, which in most of the cases is a very bad idea.

Ok, I'll admit that I didn't know that some dynamics and ribbons require
phantom power (ya learn something new every day), but in most cases dynamic
mics don't need phantom power but won't be damaged by it, and most ribbon
mics don't need phantom power and will be damaged by it.

 

[Richard Monroe]

So condenser mics will absolutely not work if they don't have phantom power? and one more question. how can you tell what kind of mic it is?

Essentially true- unless they are also designed to run of a battery, such as, for instance, AKG C1000S. Most condenser mics, without phantom power, are basically the same as if they were not plugged in. If you are working with a PA that doesn't produce phantom power, you can use a separate phantom power supply. Example:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=1989&Category=Recording_Accessories

And it's not called "phantom" power because it cancels itself out. It is called that because there is no visible separate power cable. It doesn't cancel itself out. It simply doesn't carry enough amperage to have any practical effect on a standard dynamic mic. It can, however, cause catastrophic damage to some ribbon mics, especially older ones. There are plenty of people with classic ribbons, such as RCA's, who wish to God it *had* canceled itself out.-Richie

PS- how can you tell what kind of mic it is? I suggest you read the model number on the mic, and do an online search for the specs, which will tell you if it's a condenser or a dynamic, and whether it requires phantom power. As a rule, condensers want phantom power and dynamics don't need it, but as we have noted above, there are a handful of exceptions to that rule. I think Beyerdynamic builds a phantom powered dynamic, and Marshall Electronics and B.L.U.E. both build phantom powered ribbons.

 

[philbagg]

Better take all those SM81s that have been used on stage for 30 years and throw them in the garbage. Filthy electret microphones! Burn them all!!!!

Let's not go friggin nuts here! All I'm saying is that in general, regular condensers
are more common than electrets. And I didn't say that condensers wouldn't
work well on stage, I know for a fact that they do. But dynamics are much more
common in the live world for a few reasons.

Don't you agree?

 

[mshilarious]

Let's not go friggin nuts here! All I'm saying is that in general, regular condensers
are more common than electrets. And I didn't say that condensers wouldn't
work well on stage, I know for a fact that they do. But dynamics are much more
common in the live world for a few reasons.

No, I don't agree. Condensers are used all the time for live work. I've done shows with nothing but condensers. I've also done shows with nothing but dynamics. Condensers are a lot cheaper now than they were 20 years ago, so a lot of PA gear didn't offer phantom power. Most do now, but there's a lot of older gear installed out there in the world, so that can be a barrier.

I would never use dynamics for live drum OH. It's been done, but I don't think it works as well. Acoustic shows these days lean heavily towards condensers, especially stuff like bluegrass. Most built-in or attached mics to instruments are condensers, and doing mic/pickup blends is extremely common in modern live sound.

Handheld vocal condensers are also very common, not so much in the bar band circuit but once vocalists graduate to better stages they often want to bring their own mic, and it's often a condenser (although my friendly correspondent Mr. Monroe I believe uses an SM7B).

Kick is usually dynamic, but can be something like the Shure Beta 91 instead.

What's more, the majority of condensers for live sound are . . . electrets! I already mentioned the SM81, which is hardly a rare exception. That's the condenser I see most often on stage. But most of the vocal condensers, nearly all of the instrument-mount mics, stuff like the Beta 91 I mentioned . . . all electret.

It's not just Shure either. From AT's line, the AT4033 and AT4041 are electret. AT's installed sound series (U853 and similar), used everywhere on instruments (guitar, strings, brass, anything really), choir overheads, podiums (podia?) . . . electret. Same story with Shure and Beyer's installed sound series. Probably Senn too, but for some reason I don't pay much attention to them (they also do their MKH series which are RF condensers, kinda unusual but clever).

Earthwork's piano system . . . electret. DPA (for the seriously high-cost instrument mounted mic) . . . electret.

Electret . . . it's not just for breakfast anymore!

PS AT's new ribbons, AT4081 and AT4080 are phantom-powered ribbons . . . and contrary to popular belief, modern (passive) ribbons will not ordinarily be harmed by phantom power, although some can be in unusual circumstances, mostly related to hot-patching, especially through a patchbay.

 

[dgatwood]

I would actually suspect that electret condensers are a lot more common than all the other mic types put together, even for live use. Probably 90% of the wireless microphones out there use a condenser mic, and they're almost all electrets. Headset mics? Electrets. And as you mentioned, almost every permanently installed microphone hanging over a choir or mounted on a podium gooseneck within the last two decades is an electret condenser. And so on.

Condensers are pretty ubiquitous in live use. They're just less common in the most visible places---in the hands of singers---because they aren't as rugged as dynamic mics.

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

This thread took a very odd turn...

Do you need an amplifier for a guitar? Well, no, not if it's acoustic, but if it's electric, you should probably get an amp. Same goes with mics. If you use only mics that don't need it, you don't need it. If you use mics (or ever want to be able to do so) that require phantom power, then yes, you should get it.

 

[zed32]

this thread is full of hate.