Panning

[jaynm26]

I wanted to ask how you guys pan lead vox. Im in pro tools, I send lead channel (mono) to a stereo channel my stereo channel is panned hard left hard right so 100 each way. Been doin it this way for a while. What do you guys do? weather you do it the same way or you dont bus lead to stereo track or aux and you just keep the one track lead straight down the middle?

 

[Massive Master]

You're just creating two mono signals that way -- No different than one mono signal.

 

[mixsit]

I wanted to ask how you guys pan lead vox. Im in pro tools, I send lead channel (mono) to a stereo channel my stereo channel is panned hard left hard right so 100 each way. ..

I'm not in PT so I don't even know what that means. Any mono tracks go to the stereo master bus and follow what ever panned position they're set at. Exception would be they go to a sub bus along the way with other tracks for group control or processing, which in turn then goes to the master.

 

[jaynm26]

You're just creating two mono signals that way -- No different than one mono signal.

but the panning is different when you have a stereo track cause you can pan each side (L&R) differently. I am asking at this point when vocals are drums are sent to a bus how do yall pan yalls sub bus.

 

[jaynm26]

Exception would be they go to a sub bus along the way with other tracks for group control or processing, which in turn then goes to the master.

This is what I was asking bout at this point when your bussing mono to stereo sub bus I am assuming your panned HL and HR for say drums. But where are you panned if you sub bus your vocals HL and HR or 50-50?

 

[bouldersoundguy]

but the panning is different when you have a stereo track cause you can pan each side differently signals left & right or center.

No. The one pan knob on a mono track does exactly the same thing without the pointless additional routing.

I am asking what do y'all do?

Like 99.999% of competent engineers I generally just use the pan knob on the mono track.

 

[mjbphotos]

Mono track to two tracks (or one stereo track), is still one mono track - its the same signal on each track/side.

jay said: when vocals are drums are sent to a bus HUH?? No idea what you are saying!

 

[bouldersoundguy]

This is what I was asking bout at this point when your bussing mono to stereo sub bus I am assuming your panned HL and HR for say drums. But where are you panned if you sub bus your vocals HL and HR or 50-50?

If the mono vocal track's pan control is center and the bus pans are mirror image to each other then the vocal will be centered. There are very few situations where you would need to set the pans on a bus any way other than hard left and right. One of those would be narrowing the image of a reverb on an effects bus, but that's an exception. Leave your buses panned hard and do your panning with the individual channels. Just because a feature is there doesn't mean you have to use it.

 

[miroslav]

Pretty much what most everyone else said...just use the mono channel pan to place it in the center (or wherever)...no need for additional routing.

I have to say that one of the negatives of DAW apps is that they have confused the shit out of people with all the mono/stereo track options during recording and mixing, for those who didn't come up with analog mixers where you tracked mono for most individual elements and just sent it all to a single stereo mixdown bus for final mix.

To make matters worse...many DAWs default their tracks to stereo when recording...so people think everything that they track is a "stereo" track and that it's "better" than tracking mono, and then that confuses them even more when it comes time to mix all those "stereo" tracks...how to pan them.

 

[mixsit]

This is what I was asking bout at this point when your bussing mono to stereo sub bus I am assuming your panned HL and HR for say drums. But where are you panned if you sub bus your vocals HL and HR or 50-50?

Just to see if I understand that you mean 'HL. 'HR is hard left or right on your busses?

In that case it would be the exception to use the bus pan at all.
Say it's a mixed and panned group of mono voc tracks spread across this sub group for example. You could adjust the pan position of this pre-mix with the sub's balance control, or do it back at the track pans. (If PT gives you L and R gains as well.. then I guess you can adjust width and balance from either place as well.

With the exceptions for single path 'aux send splits and such, the default is tracks (whether mono or stereo) feeding dual discreet paths eventually to the output.
Most of the mixing remains back at the track level.

 

[mixsit]

To make matters worse...many DAWs default their tracks to stereo when recording...so people think everything that they track is a "stereo" track and that it's "better" than tracking mono, and then that confuses them even more when it comes time to mix all those "stereo" tracks...how to pan them.

Get yee familiar with a flow diagram- maybe even some ol Mackie' mixer if not available for your DAW.

 

[jaynm26]

No. The one pan knob on a mono track does exactly the same thing without the pointless additional routing.



Like 99.999% of competent engineers I generally just use the pan knob on the mono track.

A mono pan and a stereo pan, yeah the signal on the mono pan say (15% to the right) would still be the same if bused but not if the bus pan's are different.

 

[jaynm26]

Mono track to two tracks (or one stereo track), is still one mono track - its the same signal on each track/side.

jay said: when vocals are drums are sent to a bus HUH?? No idea what you are saying!

Vocals or drums sorry typo

 

[jaynm26]

If the mono vocal track's pan control is center and the bus pans are mirror image to each other then the vocal will be centered. There are very few situations where you would need to set the pans on a bus any way other than hard left and right. One of those would be narrowing the image of a reverb on an effects bus, but that's an exception. Leave your buses panned hard and do your panning with the individual channels. Just because a feature is there doesn't mean you have to use it.

Boulder kinda gets what Im asking. So your philosophy boulder is the mono pan mimic whats sent to the Bus so you dont even adjust the pans on a bus you leave them HL&HR. If you want to adjust panning you go to that specific mono track.

 

[jaynm26]

Like for instance back ground vocals. Me I send my mono lead to a lead bus apply my effects, back ground vocals the same If I have multiple harmonies I pan L&R doubles straight down the center. (been doin it this way for years, same as boulder, i never touch panning on a bus.). I ask the question because I have sometimes gotten mixes from individuals or sometimes engineers and they pan say the BGV's Bus/Sub Mix differently then the actual mono signal its feeding from.

Exp. (Pro Tools) 1st Mono BGV, Pan 50%-Right, sent/bus to Stereo Aux.
2nd Mono BGV, Pan 70%-Left again sent/bus to Stereo Aux.
Stereo Aux panned "in" 30%-Left,30%-Right.

Wouldn't this change the pan from the mono signals?

 

[miroslav]

Get yee familiar with a flow diagram- maybe even some ol Mackie' mixer if not available for your DAW.

Yeah....that's the first thing I would do with a mixer, is check the signal flow in the manual. When I got my current console many years ago....I spent a lot of time studying all of that, so when I looked at the channels and the button...I knew exactly how the signal was flowing.

DAWs just offer so many more options with grouping, busing...that it can confuse some folks, and there's no flow chart in the manual...you have kinda understand the concepts to know how best to bus.


I was never much for setting up "groups" when mixing, and applying group FX/processing to them. I just like to mix out individual channels and treat them that way. I can see why in a DAW that might be an SOP, like if you can't insert a plug on too many individual tracks in real time for fear of chocking up the DAW...so you group to overcome that.
I still think if they left the DAW tracks as mono, it would be easier for some folks to follow...and then if you need stereo, you just use two mono tracks, which for a DAW is not a big deal to add more tracks.
With a hardware console...it's nice having a few stereo channels instead of all mono...one of the things I wish I had ordered with my console when I got it, but I wasn't thinking as clearly back then.

 

[miroslav]

Stereo Aux panned "in" 30%-Left,30%-Right.

Wouldn't this change the pan from the mono signals?

Well yeah...if you do that, it will change things...but the "norm" is to leave the main stereo at full L/R.
I think the guys who pan their mono tracks, then use 2-3 sets of Aux/Group buses with additional, specific panning...then finally the main stereo bus....they just confuse themselves more and make the whole imaging more complex to follow.
Too often with DAWs there's a lot of that mixing-as-you-go per track...so people just end up building on it as they go, and it's not so much of a "let's sit down and do the mix" approach.
Once you start doing that and setting your levels/pans as you go at multiple points (groups/busses)...it becomes a complex web to unweave...so you just keep doing more as you go to make corrections when needed.

I guess in the end if it sounds like you want it...it doesn't matter...but it kinda ruins the more standardized mixing "etiquette" (for lack of a better word), and those guys end up doing it differently for each new song...mixing as they go...so anyone else looking at it has to unravel the whole thing first to make sense of it...but again, if it works for them, it doesn't matter.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Exp. (Pro Tools) 1st Mono BGV, Pan 50%-Right, sent/bus to Stereo Aux.
2nd Mono BGV, Pan 70%-Left again sent/bus to Stereo Aux.
Stereo Aux panned "in" 30%-Left,30%-Right.

Wouldn't this change the pan from the mono signals?

Yes, panning the bus in will change the track panning by narrowing the range across which it's panned, but there's no special panning outcome on the track you couldn't get by simply using the track's pan control. It would however affect any stereo effects by narrowing their spread, but most of these effects should be on a parallel effects loop where narrowing the spread of the effect doesn't alter the track panning. Track effects like eq and compression generally belong on the track inserts. You should only have to use series submix groups when you want to control groups together, like a bit of compression over a group of BGVs. There's very little reason to use a submix bus for a single track.

You say you're sending your mono lead to a lead bus? Why? What effects are on that bus? Is the lead getting to the main bus by any other path? Are any effects on the track's insert? Does anything else go through that bus?

 

[mixsit]

... I ask the question because I have sometimes gotten mixes from individuals or sometimes engineers and they pan say the BGV's Bus/Sub Mix differently then the actual mono signal its feeding from.

Exp. (Pro Tools) 1st Mono BGV, Pan 50%-Right, sent/bus to Stereo Aux.
2nd Mono BGV, Pan 70%-Left again sent/bus to Stereo Aux.
Stereo Aux panned "in" 30%-Left,30%-Right.

Wouldn't this change the pan from the mono signals?

Sure. Already addressed but to add..
Just think of anything done at the sub group bus as a second set pf global adjustments on top of what came before.

..long as you don't go too far down the rabbit hole like Miroslav eluded to undoing at one layer what was 'done' in another.
Well, ok too if you do but you get the picture

 

[jaynm26]

You say you're sending your mono lead to a lead bus? Why? What effects are on that bus? Is the lead getting to the main bus by any other path? Are any effects on the track's insert? Does anything else go through that bus?

Yea, in Pro Tools...Lead Mono to Stereo Aux/Bus (panned L&R) where I apply my EQ, Comp, fx on the Aux/Bus.
That Aux/Bus goes to an ALL VOCALS Aux/Bus (to control all vocals) and then to Mix Bus.

boulder do you just keep you Lead Mono track no bussing?